Anyone heard the new VPI Classic?

mountaineagle · « **Reply #120 on:** 1 Jun 2009, 08:35 am »

John,

To show I am listening to what you are saying.

For what it is worth Graham ( at Graham Slee ) recommended a Technics SL1210 fitted with a cheap Audio Technica AT95E ( ?25 )!

I can see that some of you have experience of this deck which I can pick up with the arm for ?399.

How much better is the VPI Classic?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #121 on:** 1 Jun 2009, 04:31 pm »

Quote from: mountaineagle on 1 Jun 2009, 08:35 am

For what it is worth Graham ( at Graham Slee ) recommended a Technics SL1210 fitted with a cheap Audio Technica AT95E ( ?25 )!

I can see that some of you have experience of this deck which I can pick up with the arm for ?399.

How much better is the VPI Classic?

I'd say 3%.

What one is willing to pay for that extra 3% makes us audiophools.

Happy audiophools sometimes, but poorer nonetheless

John

Wayner · « **Reply #122 on:** 1 Jun 2009, 06:55 pm »

The Technics won't hum with a Grado on it! I have that set up out in the garage on my SL-Q2. No problem at all.

Wayner

Leegross · « **Reply #123 on:** 1 Jun 2009, 07:33 pm »

Greg,

You are getting some very good advice. I'll throw in a bit more for you to ponder.

Only you can determine the value proposition of "better". John says the Classic is 3% better than the Technics. I have never heard a Technics so I don't have an opinion. The Classic to my ears is 60% better than the Scout. So what? You may hear 3% or 60% or nothing if you heard all of these back to back.

Maybe you already answered this, but is there any way for you to listen to some options? When I use to sell high end stuff I would try to offer comparisons of product. Sometimes the customer would say, heck yes, I like what that widget is doing and here's another thousand bucks and sometimes they would say, did you change anything??? Most of the time though the customer could hear the difference but didn't find it worth the extra dough. It's your ears and your money.

Good luck!

Lee

mountaineagle · « **Reply #124 on:** 1 Jun 2009, 07:36 pm »

I'm grateful for the patience of you guys with my learning curve...

I am beginning to realise there is a battle between direct drive and belt drive aficionados.

I am gonna get there...3% John that's pushing it!

So Technics SL1210 or Rega P3-24?

I still want the VPI Classic with their factory fitted dedicated Dynavector DV-20X moving coil catridge ( 1 millivolt output ) or have I got the cartridge wrong as well as the deck?

Graham Slee warns me that if the stylus gets broken it's a replacement job as re-tipping is no less expensive...although I suppose it will be insured.

Graham also, kindly, mentioned that he is just about to launch the Reflex MC which is a one box solution for low output moving coil only and would enable those not bothered about a MM cartridge to avoid the double purchase of the Era Gold Reflex & Elevator.

Which brings me to my next daft question...if MM cartridges have advanced in recent times why not get one of those on the Classic?

Finally, Mike at VPI also put me right on the tonearm on the Classic making the point that the stainless steel option was very expensive to make and the sonic difference was the mass, not the material. Once the mass of the stainless steel was matched in the tonearm no-one could hear any sonic difference so the non-stainless steel tonearm you now get on the Classic matches any previous derivative using stainless steel.

John...3% it may be mate...but what then would we have to talk about if we all had no-nonsense direct drive t/ts?

Sorry if my ignorance is mucking up the thread I accept that these must be silly infantile questions to you guys... which reminds me of the Groucho Marx quotation...

A five year old child could understand this...someone send out for a five year old child...

Greg the Brit.

mountaineagle · « **Reply #125 on:** 1 Jun 2009, 07:40 pm »

Lee,

Many thanks...was writing my post before I saw your sound advice.

I intend to listen to the Classic and as you have sold high-end stuff what is all trhis difference between the Linn/Rega sound and VPI?

I am lead to believe that VPI is better and the Brits are just bull******** aa

Greg

Wayner · « **Reply #126 on:** 1 Jun 2009, 08:28 pm »

I don't think the Technics Sl-1210 and the Rega P3-24 are in the same league. While I like the RB-300 arm, the new RB-301 shipped on the Rega P3-24 isn't getting the same kind of reviews, although the P3-24 has a better motor than the P3.

I have to give the advantage (big time) to the SL-1210. The 1210 is cheaper, too. Spend the savings on a better cartridge (of course I'm the AT440MLa pimp), but the word is out on the Ortofon 2M Black with the Shibata stylus, but that is $669 in some catalogs. Ouch! You can get the AT for $129 at www.LPGEAR.com

Also, while Mikey Frammer gave the AT-95 a stellar review (for an ultra budget cartridge), it tracks at 2 grams (in the middle of spec) and that is too much VTF for me.

Wayner

mountaineagle · « **Reply #127 on:** 1 Jun 2009, 08:36 pm »

Wayner,

As Lee said, and I am sure we would both agree, it is all subjective but G Slee said that if he was starting back into vinyl he would start with the Technics.

I intend to listen to the Classic in the next few weeks. I am simply waiting for it to be delivered at the dealers from the US.

The Scout is a table I might have previously considered so for Lee to say that the Classic is in his opinion 60% better seems to be praise indeed.

Greg

ricmon · « **Reply #128 on:** 1 Jun 2009, 08:42 pm »

Quote from: Wayner on 1 Jun 2009, 08:28 pm

I don't think the Technics Sl-1210 and the Rega P3-24 are in the same league. While I like the RB-300 arm, the new RB-301 shipped on the Rega P3-24 isn't getting the same kind of reviews, although the P3-24 has a better motor than the P3.

I have to give the advantage (big time) to the SL-1210. The 1210 is cheaper, too. Spend the savings on a better cartridge (of course I'm the AT440MLa pimp), but the word is out on the Ortofon 2M Black with the Shibata stylus, but that is $669 in some catalogs. Ouch! You can get the AT for $129 at www.LPGEAR.com

Also, while Mikey Frammer gave the AT-95 a stellar review (for an ultra budget cartridge), it tracks at 2 grams (in the middle of spec) and that is too much VTF for me.

Wayner

Give the Ortofon 2M Bronze a try (about $360.00). I've been listening through it for about 3 months and I think I?m going to have a bit of separation anxiety once the Black Bird returns from the repair shop. However it took a looooog time to break-in.

Wayner · « **Reply #129 on:** 1 Jun 2009, 08:49 pm »

When John (TCG) is having trouble with a Grado humming, let's be honest here. I won't buy one now. If that's VPI's big buster table (it's a classic) and the very cartridge that they recommend hummmmms like a bastard, they have made a huge mistake. I think the motor position sucks. It should have been back at the 9 o'clock post (farthest away from the cartridge). Closer to the pivot doesn't matter. The cartridge is the beast that has the coils in it and I'd want to keep the motor as far away from the coils as possible.

This is the one design flaw that I really think they (VPI) really screwed up on. It'll stop me from buying one.

I'd love to have a great table that I can put a nice Grado woody on. I think they are awesome cartridges with the right table (including the Longhorn).

Who is going to be happy with a VPI Classic that they've spent $2700 and their VPI recommended Grado hummms like a bitch. Non for me thanks.

Does anybody build a proto-type first and try different cartridges with it before some dopey marketing guy gets ahold of it and totally screws up the product? It's a disease.

Wayner

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #130 on:** 1 Jun 2009, 09:01 pm »

I am of the opinion from top to bottom the difference between a reasonably good deck and superlative one is maybe 10%. I mean, they all play music don't they?

Only an audiophool would obsess over that last few % ...they typically cost $$$thousands to achieve (and even throwing money at matters sometimes amounts to sideways upgrades only)

The Technics is a good, competent deck...and for under $1000 (in the US, at least) there seems little to top it today. Yes, I'm a direct drive 'fan', so take that as you may, but it's a competent, well build, decent sounding deck.

But, between the SL-1200 series and the VPI Classic.....3-5% may be all. I consider that to be a magnificent difference worth the price of admission. If you listen primarily to rock and pop, nor fancy yourself an audiophool, or are new to the vinyl hobby (or have modest means of income) - I wholeheartedly endorse the Technics Sl-1200 series for you for that reason.

But, I don't think you'll be disappointed with the VPI Classic, either....just a bit poorer for it

John

Scottdazzle · « **Reply #131 on:** 1 Jun 2009, 09:07 pm »

Wayner,

Grado cartridges always seem to be susceptible to hum. That's why I wouldn't put one on my short list, whether or not I was getting a VPI Classic. I bet your AT's wouldn't hum. In a few days I will know how the Zyx Airy mc does with the Classic. It better not hum!

Scott

Wayner · « **Reply #132 on:** 1 Jun 2009, 09:15 pm »

OK, I didn't mean to crap all over John either, but I think he's disappointed abit, because of the Grado's performance and so am I. I feel bad that VPI didn't scope this out a bit better.

I'll bet the table will sound awesome with other carts, just that I was finally hoping that this would be the ultimate combination, and it's not.

Scott, give us your report when you get the new cart. Don't be like me and hold anything back

Wayner

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #133 on:** 1 Jun 2009, 09:17 pm »

Quote from: Wayner on 1 Jun 2009, 08:49 pm

When John (TCG) is having trouble with a Grado humming, let's be honest here. I won't buy one now. If that's VPI's big buster table (it's a classic) and the very cartridge that they recommend hummmmms like a bastard, they have made a huge mistake. I think the motor position sucks. It should have been back at the 9 o'clock post (farthest away from the cartridge). Closer to the pivot doesn't matter. The cartridge is the beast that has the coils in it and I'd want to keep the motor as far away from the coils as possible.

This is the one design flaw that I really think they (VPI) really screwed up on. It'll stop me from buying one.

I'd love to have a great table that I can put a nice Grado woody on. I think they are awesome cartridges with the right table (including the Longhorn).

Who is going to be happy with a VPI Classic that they've spent $2700 and their VPI recommended Grado hummms like a bitch. Non for me thanks.

Does anybody build a proto-type first and try different cartridges with it before some dopey marketing guy gets ahold of it and totally screws up the product? It's a disease.

Wayner

Okay, let me re-classify things here a bit as they might get taken out of context via internet.

The Grado does exhibit noise when not in the grooves (oddly, more noise in the middle and less at the start and end grooves), but it does not affect listening to me. So, it's not a bitch - it's a nuisance perhaps depending on how you view matters, but not a bitch.

It's the only cartridge I've had on it since it came in 2 weeks ago and I have no urge to remove it if that helps clarify matters further.

The motor at bottom-most left is a nice touch in my opinion. It makes circling the pulley and platter so much easier with the belt and it is a teeny bit further from the arm pillar.

Given the Grado hum is not excessive, it just seems smart to me putting the motor bottom in the left area.

John

Wayner · « **Reply #134 on:** 1 Jun 2009, 09:22 pm »

John, with all the hype this table has gotten, I'd hope to listen to my favorite CAMEL album to fade out into total darkeness at a 9:30 to 10:00 volume setting. Kind of loud, but not glaring. We all know that vinyl looses it at high volumes due to surface noise, but can you tell me where the hum starts (at what volume position)?

Wayner

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TheChairGuy · « **Reply #135 on:** 1 Jun 2009, 09:54 pm »

Every system is different of course.

But, in mine, the hum is not problematic until maybe 1:30 on the dial.

I think my Pioneer phono section is a tad low relative to many at 36db, my speakers are 87db efficient and I sit about 8' away from thew speaks most times.

As well, my tube amps have adjustable gain and I twiddle it down to offer the lowest level without losing fullness and impact on orchestral music (my source material to assess these matters). Better to use the quieter gain of the SS preamp for volume in my system.

Just to give you a relevant picture of matters here

So, I'm not sure that helps answer your need as every situation is so specific and system dependent.

John

Quote from: Wayner on 1 Jun 2009, 09:22 pm

John, with all the hype this table has gotten, I'd hope to listen to my favorite CAMEL album to fade out into total darkeness at a 9:30 to 10:00 volume setting. Kind of loud, but not glaring. We all know that vinyl looses it at high volumes due to surface noise, but can you tell me where the hum starts (at what volume position)?

Wayner (

bacobits1 · « **Reply #136 on:** 2 Jun 2009, 12:21 am »

And now, you have the VPI Scout II with that classic 20lb platter. No one brought this up.
Can it get anymore confusing?

http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?number=HW-SCOUT29T

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/
Review about 1/2 page down.

Den

doug s. · « **Reply #137 on:** 2 Jun 2009, 12:42 am »

wayner, have you tried a grado on your 598? it has its motor in the same position as the vpi classic. and, as others have mentioned, grado's are susceptible to hum on a few decks...

for mountain eagle:

re: the technics', i think they are fine decks, and certainly a great deal, if shopping new. no way i'd pick an entry level rega over a technics. but again, if it were my money, and i didn't wanna lay out the big dollars, i'd be looking for a used empire.

as far as spending more money on a used deck, i wonder how a vpi like this, w/sme-iv arm, would compare to the new vpi classic:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1249066439

other used decks that look sweet:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1248728066

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1248189269

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1248187562

(bargain of the bunch?):
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1248958278&/Well-Tempered-classic

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1248890250&/Wilson-Benesch-Full-Circle

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1247963774&/Technics-Sp10-Mkii-Audio-Technica-1009

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1247772605&/Teres-Custom-Marble

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1247060120&/Custom-Lenco-Turntable-Rebuilt-w

as you can see, there is a plethora of amazing choices in the ~$2000-$3000 price range...

ymmv,

doug s.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #138 on:** 2 Jun 2009, 01:14 am »

'Tis true there are many decks to choose from $2K-$3K, there are precious fewer that are new, have an inverted bearing, a very heavy (balanced) platter and 10.5" arm (or any arm) included in that package.

As I listen to this table more - the more I feel that it is a superb entry at $2500.00

The day it goes to $3000 (as I see it likely) retail....the extra $500 would have to be considered once again versus competition. But, it would still likely rank highly at that.

John

dcbingaman · « **Reply #139 on:** 2 Jun 2009, 04:08 am »

Of all those gorgeous tables on Audiogon - I'd take the TNT / SME IV combo - I'll bet it sounds beautiful and has big balls......er, legs !! (Now, how do I get it past the old lady ????)

Chair Guy - you sold my HW-19 Mk. III ? I swear these things are like old pianos....the good ones end up with as many owners as a feral tomcat !!! I hope it found another good home - there was a lot of Steely Dan, Return to Forever, Herbie Hancock and Miles Davis played on that baby in it's day !!