[TheChairGuy]

also, while this new vpi is undoubtedly a fine deck, i would strongly consider finding a used empire...

doug s.

A guy can only have so many decks...and this guy is once again up to 4 (my limit, in fact over sensibly by two or so I figure ). 

The VPI has a platter that weighs 4x as much, more mass overall, it has an inverted bearing, feedback resistant feet already supplied and a modern 10.5" arm.  It's pretty much is an Empire updated with modern touches. 

A truly vintage Empire, 30 years of wear on it, would be a digression in sonics most likely.

John

[mountaineagle]

Thanks Doug, but I dont have the expertise of you guys and wouldnt know if a used deck was ok. I am lead to believe VPI based their Classic design on the Empire so it must have been some deck 

[Wayner]

My 35+ year old Empire is in the finest condition ever, mechanically. The motor is great, the speed is very accurate and after fixing my thrust washer, I've been listening to it steady all week long.

However, I am jealous of John (the bastard) , and his new table. Hope it sounds awesome and lasts you for 30 years. There isn't any reason that it shouldn't.

How much does the platter weigh?

Wayner

[TheChairGuy]

How much does the platter weigh?

Wayner

20lbs - it's a moose.  I think the HW-19 Mk. III platter weighs 'only' 12 lbs.

I've had the platter spinning all night hoping to wear in the bearing and motor for a real test drive today.  So far, it sounds very promising

John

[mountaineagle]

Chairguy, I am thinking along the lines of getting Harry and his gang to fit the VPI Dynavector 20X so I dont have to tinker with it - what do you think?

Have you got a Grado catridge on your deck?

Also I have read of a stainless steel tube tonarm for the Classic. Is this standard or is it an option as it seems to say on the Absolute Sounds article and what have you got?

Rock on,

Greg

[TheChairGuy]

Chairguy, I am thinking along the lines of getting Harry and his gang to fit the VPI Dynavector 20X so I dont have to tinker with it - what do you think?

Have you got a Grado catridge on your deck?

Also I have read of a stainless steel tube tonarm for the Classic. Is this standard or is it an option as it seems to say on the Absolute Sounds article and what have you got?

Rock on,

Greg

Greg,

I've got a Grado Gold with van Alstine Longhorn mod on it.  The arm doesn't look like stainless to me.....the manual does not mention weight of the arm, but the Grado is mid-to-hi compliance so it's probably suited fine to it

Holding it in your hand, as you can do as there is no permanent attachment to the arm pillar as a wacky unipivot...it doesn't feel too heavy (if that means anything )

I like the Grados, with the optional silicone damping trough filled of course, and figure that the table was likely 'voiced' (whatever that means) with them and the Dynavectors that VPI sell.

This morning, after wearing in platter/motor all night, it is sounding silky smooth to my ears (and I tend to pricklish ears for certain decks....and most of the issues have been belt drive decks.  Not this one it seems....)

John

[TheChairGuy]

Three things I'm finding with this deck that are not favorable (besides the manual-only function...which is a pain in the keyster  .  That is:

1. Unshielded AC motor makes a bit o' hum with Grado.  It seems I have a reasonably low MM gain stage with my Pioneer (perhaps 36db?), so I have to twiddle it up a bit.  At 2 o'clock, I can hear the underlying hum.  Interestingly, given the position of the motor (perhaps) at the left bottom corner...the hum is worse in the middle of an album side and is less at the end of the side.

2. I have never found a Grado Gold for want of more bass.  I have heard said that unipivots have relatively weak bass - I do believe that now hearing it in action.  The Grado has lost it's voluminous bass it displays in the JVC direct drive (gimballed arm). 

3.  The speed seems as good as the HW-19 was with the SDS unit bone stock with 20-odd hours on it.  But, it lacks that certain specificity of timing that the JVC QL-Y66F has.  However, I did remember the amazing change the SDS had on the HW-19 for 'timing', and soundstage width and height.  I think to reach that exactness of speed that direct drive has, one still needs the SDS unit.  But, that's another ~$800 and will wait a spell to indulge (I've got quarterly estimated taxes to make mid-June)

I still need to make sure I have the arm geometry and all juuuuust right here to be sure.....but, at the current time I think I'm missing my JVC DD

The game is not over yet, tho.

John

[mountaineagle]

John,

Enjoying reading of your trials and tribulations and I await the full verdict! 

Greg

[doug s.]

all:

i was not trying to spoil anyone's fun by mentioning the empire decks in this thread.  i think the vpi classic is a fine looking piece, and i would love to see/hear one in the flesh.  and i am especially intrigued since the empire was on vpi's mind when developing the classic.  i only mentioned the empire cuz some folks don't have the budget for a new deck like this.  and yes - wherever possible, i am a cheapskate. 

john/tcg - if you are not sure you are enamoured of the uni-pivot arm, can you get this deck sans arm?

and don't forget auto-lift dewices for 100% manual decks.  i really like this option, as it makes the deck itself so simple.   

doug s.

[Sonny]

Three things I'm finding with this deck that are not favorable (besides the manual-only function...which is a pain in the keyster  .  That is:

2. I have never found a Grado Gold for want of more bass.  I have heard said that unipivots have relatively weak bass - I do believe that now hearing it in action.  The Grado has lost it's voluminous bass it displays in the JVC direct drive (gimballed arm). 

John

John, thanks for the nice quick take on the Classic... would love to come and see/hear it soon.

You know, regarding uni-arms and bass, I've never had any want for more bass on my Scout or my current TNT 3.5 with the older JMW 10 arm.  I don't know if it's the table or the set up, but I don't know if you had a "lack" of bass issue when you were here a few weeks ago to listen to my rig...

Anyways, my 2 cents on uni-arms.
T

[TheChairGuy]

john/tcg - if you are not sure you are enamoured of the uni-pivot arm, can you get this deck sans arm?

and don't forget auto-lift dewices for 100% manual decks.  i really like this option, as it makes the deck itself so simple.   

doug s.

I never thought to ask as I was too jazzed to hear any 10.5" arm (my JVC DD has a 10" arm and I love how it traces piano pieces with less 'crunch' / distortion)

It's not as easy as ordering, say, a Scout with 9" arm as 10.5" arms with Rega mounts are much rarer to find out there.  So, likely, they don't sell it this way ever.

You know, regarding uni-arms and bass, I've never had any want for more bass on my Scout or my current TNT 3.5 with the older JMW 10 arm.  I don't know if it's the table or the set up, but I don't know if you had a "lack" of bass issue when you were here a few weeks ago to listen to my rig...

Anyways, my 2 cents on uni-arms.

Beats me, Tuan...your 2 cents worth as much as mine.

As for little nuances like bass.....your system sounded fine to me, but I didn't know (or at least remember) what level of bass it had previously or ever.  In my system, listening 8-10 hours daily at 8' away, I hear every nuance of change.  I'm not golden-eared, it's just repetition and familiarity at work 

As well, I have heard described that longer arms sound 'smoother' while shorter arms sound more stout/dynamic.  It could be that at 10.5" I hear more smooth and less dynamic and sense a loss of relative bass

I think your TNT has a 10", not 10.5" arm (?)  Maybe, there's an audible difference between them (?)

John

[Sonny]

yes John,
my table has the 10" arm (older JMW 10 arm)...

[Wayner]

John, you said the arm comes with some silicone damping fuid, right? Did you use that stuff? Maybe for shits and giggles, you should not use it for awhile and see how it behaves with your Grado. I always thought the Grados favored the lower end (sometimes thinking they were dark) and perhaps with the unipivot, the longer 10.5" arm and other unknown things going on, it might make a difference.

Just a thought.

Wayner

[twitch54]

It could be that at 10.5" I hear more smooth and less dynamic and sense a loss of relative bass

FWIW, while I don't have your cartridge(rather the Dynavector 20x ,1 millivolt) I do have the 10.5i arm on my AriesIII. I do not use any dampning fluid, I find the bass taunt and accurate. My table sits atop 2 inches of maple which is part of a lead / sand filled rack that is spiked to a cement floor.

......and yes I'm using Tuan's IC's from tt-phonopre-preamp ... aa

[TheChairGuy]

John, you said the arm comes with some silicone damping fuid, right? Did you use that stuff? Maybe for shits and giggles, you should not use it for awhile and see how it behaves with your Grado. I always thought the Grados favored the lower end (sometimes thinking they were dark) and perhaps with the unipivot, the longer 10.5" arm and other unknown things going on, it might make a difference.

Wayner

Yeah, I'm using it...I've found Grado's benefit from damping. 

VPI specifically mentions that for Grado's and Clearaudio's, etc, to use the included silicone fluid.  So, it's probably not the answer...but, an interesting direction to go.

I'd absolutely add London Decca's to that list.  Other moving magnets/irons on a case-by-case basis.

Moving Coils, both because they tend towards lower compliance (less bounce per ounce ) and they have to be damped internally to reduce the ringing and etch inherent in 98% of the designs (the Rega Apheta being an exception and few others), they typically don't respond well to fluid damping.  In fact, they can sound overdamped and suck the life outta' the sonics.

But for Grados, they tuck up the bass nicely and tame some of the tracking nasties 

John

[wilsynet]

Wondering if perhaps Stillpoint ERS RFI product will tame the humming sound.

http://www.tweekgeek.com/_e/Stillpoints_ERS_More/product/ERS/Stillpoints_ERS_RFI_Killer_Just_lay_on_top_of_your_DAC_CD_player_or_power_conditioner_.htm
 

[mountaineagle]

John,

Apologies for my question re whether the tonearm is made of stainless steel. The whole purpose of the Classic is to make a good cost-effective deck which Harry has done by keeping the mass of the tonearm to no more than that of the very much more expensive stainless steel arm that is available separately at a fraction of the cost. What threw me is the reference in the Absolute Sound article to it being a $200 option which seems too good to be true so I have asked Sheila.

I am, clearly, completely out of my depth here but I am a little concerned about this "hum" as I dont think you should have to start buying tweeks to sort it if it is as good as it is cracked up to be. 

[TheChairGuy]

John,

Apologies for my question re whether the tonearm is made of stainless steel. The whole purpose of the Classic is to make a good cost-effective deck which Harry has done by keeping the mass of the tonearm to no more than that of the very much more expensive stainless steel arm that is available separately at a fraction of the cost. What threw me is the reference in the Absolute Sound article to it being a $200 option which seems too good to be true so I have asked Sheila.

I am, clearly, completely out of my depth here but I am a little concerned about this "hum" as I dont think you should have to start buying tweeks to sort it if it is as good as it is cracked up to be.

Yeah Greg - ask Sheila.  But, $200 is probably all it is for the arm in stainless over the stock one.

It's got an unshielded AC motor....not the first deck to have one and interact with Grado's and cause it to hum.  This is the first deck I can remember this happening with, however...I don't think I had tried a Grado on the HW-19 Mk. III I owned.

Nonetheless, VPI sells Grados (the higher line Reference/Woodie series), so I suspect despite the hum Mr. Weisfeld is pleased with the sound of them on his decks.

John

[mountaineagle]

John,

Look forward to hearing more on the Classic as it runs in. I am hoping it will be the deck for me as I dont want to have to update it if the law of diminishing returns suggests that it will remain the optimum purchase for at least a few years in so far as the "tipping point" of such law relates to turntables.

Your opinion will have a bearing on whether I decide to buy it, probably, with the Dynavector 20 X ( unless you advise the VPI fitted 20X, at the price, does not do the deck justice? )  as I dont have the expertise of you guys and none of my mates have a clue either. A lot of us are thinking of going back to vinyl. Unfortunately, I sold a lot of my vinyl when at college. Thought I was just getting old and the 2 dimensional sound of cd was down to me until a few years ago a girlfriend's brother-in-law played Joni Mitchell's Blue on an old basic Linn Sondek ( with no valhalla etc., ) and an AR60 amp and Leak speakers and even on this old system, and he knew how to set up the deck having worked for a dealer as a student, the music flowed with a soul that took my breathe away and made me realise what you guys know already and that is that vinyl is the future and not just the past.

Toyed with the idea of a Linn but I am not a tweeker and the only way I would get the deck to "bounce" would be if it was made of rubber!   

Listening to a great old bootleg cd at the moment by Steely Dan ....not brilliant quality but captures their sound without the sterility of Alive in America.....Live in Saratoga in 1993. Saw them in Liverpool in 2007...technically brilliant but lacking what they produced at Saratoga.

Greg

[TheChairGuy]

I have the bearing/motor at maybe 30 hours now and I do sense a subtle betterment with 'timing' or speed accuracy.  So, it's pretty good at 20 hours...but seems to benefit from more time spun.

However, actual music playing time is likely <12 hours.

There could be a case for the tonearm, too.  I forgot, but my Origin Live tonearm took like 200 hours to fully flesh out.  I think the cartridge voltages so feeble for tonearm wiring that the dielectric takes forever to break in with tonearms.

So, my earlier jab that unipivots might have weak bass may be nuthin' more than blather.  It may well take time for the dielectric to break in.

I'm a believer that it's the dielectric that takes the break-in time...not the wire itself.  I've heard it countless times with every kind of wire imaginable. Teflon (which is probably what VPI uses) is the longest and plastic/poly, cotton and other materials are rather fast to nearly no time at all.

So, onward with playback Traffic's 'John Barleycorn Must Die' sounding pretty good right now

John