[mountaineagle]

Used to have Light as a Feather by Return to Forever on vinyl but sold it 25 years ago 

Well Chairguy ...Graham Slee tells me ( yes like a border collie I follow the last command  ) provided I buy his Gram Amp 2 SE phono stage it is such electronics which matter and that combined with the SL1210 and a cheapo AT cartridge ...will do the job   

Still going to listen to the Classic when the dealer says it has arrived but appears bizarre that I am now comparing it with a deck that is a 1/5th of the cost.

Can you not up the 3/5% just to cheer me up? 

Although it would be fun to pay a lot less I still want to be convinced to buy the Classic...maybe I should take a lie-down 

Greg

 

[doug s.]

Used to have Light as a Feather by Return to Forever on vinyl but sold it 25 years ago 

Well Chairguy ...Graham Slee tells me ( yes like a border collie I follow the last command  ) provided I buy his Gram Amp 2 SE phono stage it is such electronics which matter and that combined with the SL1210 and a cheapo AT cartridge ...will do the job   

Still going to listen to the Classic when the dealer says it has arrived but appears bizarre that I am now comparing it with a deck that is a 1/5th of the cost.

Can you not up the 3/5% just to cheer me up? 

Although it would be fun to pay a lot less I still want to be convinced to buy the Classic...maybe I should take a lie-down 

Greg

here's a command for you to follow.     check out this fono stage; it has gotten fabulous reviews, can easily be upgraded to sound even better, won't break the bank, and you can use it w/any cartridge made, mm, or mc, hi or low output...  retails for more than the graham slee iteration you are looking at, but at its actual selling prices, it's not a lot more. 

http://jolida.com/catalogue/models/jd9a.shtml

doug s.

ps - while i cannot quantify in percentages the diff between a technics and a vpi classic or scout, i think tcg's "3%" is a lot closer than lee's "60%"   

[BobM]

Just a quick note about the 7:00 motor position on the classic. I think VPI has been listening to some forum discussions. Here's the theory.

With a motor at 11:00 the vibrations from the motor and the belt tension affects the motor in a push-pull kind of way directly 90 degrees to the cartridge body. This could accentuate fluctuations. With the motor at 7:00 these fluctuations are in line with the stylus and theoretically should be less audible. At least that's the theory I've heard.

I'm thinking VPI made the classic with this in mind and is testing the waters to see if there really is a difference or not.

As for Grado hum, this is nothing new with VPI. They have been prone to Grado hum for years. So, is it the cartridge's fault or the turntables fault? Who cares ... Dynavector makes better cartridges anyway at the same price points.

As to 3% vs 5% vs 50% ... you would do best to buy any of those beautiful tables, with a decent arm and cartridge, then spend the extra bucks on a better phono stage. Yes, the VPI Classic is a nice table, for sure, but its new and heavily hyped. So be willing to pay for that or go to the used marketplace where better deals may live.

Enjoy,
Bob

[TheChairGuy]

As to 3% vs 5% vs 50% ... you would do best to buy any of those beautiful tables, with a decent arm and cartridge, then spend the extra bucks on a better phono stage. Yes, the VPI Classic is a nice table, for sure, but its new and heavily hyped. So be willing to pay for that or go to the used marketplace where better deals may live.

Enjoy,
Bob

Bob,

What hype are you talking about?  VPI is one of the largest makers of 'specialist' turntable makers in the world today - probably third in sales next to Project and Rega - when they come out with any new table it elicits some hub-bub from the relatively small cadre of vinyl enthusiasts worldwide willing to part with an obscene US$1500 minimum to play records.

Harry Weisfeld infrequently participates over at AudioAsylum and said flat out that it's the most enjoyable table he's made to date (for him).  I'm not sure that qualifies as hype - if anything it's either stark candidness or business suicide; but, not hype.

For $2500, the VPI Classic makes a pretty compelling case for 'value' in this segment of table.  It's complete with with 10.5" (optional fluid damped) arm, feedback resistant feet and it's a cinch to set up. 

I find it speed accurate to a point that I would dare one to tell what type of drive mechanism it has.  For me, that's HUGE - I regularly hear the off-pitch, wobbly tone of many belt drives...with or without outboard speed governance.

Is it worth $2000 more than the de facto standard at $500 (new) in the Technics SL-1200 Mk. II?  Yup - absolutely for me on that point (but not necessarily would I wholesale say that for all). 

Does it sound better than my vamped up JVC QL-Y66F that I have adored for the past year (that in itself sounds better than the Technics SL-1200 Mk. II with pricey Origin Live arm)?  Yup again.

It sounds good in absolute sense.  Music is just a little bolder, larger and more enticing than any deck I have memory of recently.  So, no hype or spin...it's just a goddamn good table at a fair price by vinylphool standards of such

[mountaineagle]

Thanks John...

Can't wait to listen to it just as soon as it has made it's way to my UK dealer.

Greg

[TheChairGuy]

For the record, this is what Harry Weisfeld wrote over at AudioAsylum in January:

Posted by HW (M) on January 08, 2009 at 11:46:29

In Reply to: RE: Harry makes great tables posted by sberger on January 07, 2009 at 16:34:36

Guys, relax, I don't do any marketing, I have no interest in it. For me, read - FOR ME - this table is the first one that sounds closest to my master tapes in speed stability. So what! Who cares but me? I wanted a wood table that looked like the 19 but sounded better. I wound up with a really superb table that reminds me of the old Empires and Rek-O Kuts, I love that sound.

It is a really great sounding table for $2500.00, no more no less, but for me it is my favorite in the line and personally my favorite of them all. It does things for me that makes my vinyl playback sound more like the live music I hear. REMEMBER, I listen on a three channel system that does things differently than your regular two channel system so it is working superbly in that context.

The 10.5i is a wonderful arm and makes every table it is put on sound better, the speed stability is rock solid because the motor and platter are locked together, the inverted bearing is still wonderful. The Scout is still the best buy it always was, especially the "B" stock ones that MD is selling. THE SSM Rim Drive (as you will shortly read) is a killer table. The world has not changed.

Let's not make more of this than it is and look for some secret motive to making what I enjoy listening to!!!

HW

[BobM]

Please don't get me wrong. I'm sure it's a great table. And VPI makes a fine product (I own one myself). It's just their answer to the recent trend towards revamping older, direct and rim drive TT's of yore. A very smart marketing move, especially since they seem to have it priced at a sweet spot and made it look retro, in a sense.

The market hype (within our small community of vinyl enthusiasts)  is probably all deserved. All I'm saying is that there are also some very good used deals to be had on other well regarded and equally nice looking tables, and you can still get a bargain on something that was originally priced way above this level to begin with.

In either case, buying new or used, the VPI Classic would be on my short list to check out.

Bob

[Scottdazzle]

Used to have Light as a Feather by Return to Forever on vinyl but sold it 25 years ago 

Well Chairguy ...Graham Slee tells me ( yes like a border collie I follow the last command  ) provided I buy his Gram Amp 2 SE phono stage it is such electronics which matter and that combined with the SL1210 and a cheapo AT cartridge ...will do the job   

Still going to listen to the Classic when the dealer says it has arrived but appears bizarre that I am now comparing it with a deck that is a 1/5th of the cost.

Can you not up the 3/5% just to cheer me up? 

Although it would be fun to pay a lot less I still want to be convinced to buy the Classic...maybe I should take a lie-down 

Greg

here's a command for you to follow.     check out this fono stage; it has gotten fabulous reviews, can easily be upgraded to sound even better, won't break the bank, and you can use it w/any cartridge made, mm, or mc, hi or low output...  retails for more than the graham slee iteration you are looking at, but at its actual selling prices, it's not a lot more. 

http://jolida.com/catalogue/models/jd9a.shtml

doug s.

ps - while i cannot quantify in percentages the diff between a technics and a vpi classic or scout, i think tcg's "3%" is a lot closer than lee's "60%"   

The Jolida is a fine phono preamp for the price, but you must replace the stock tubes. They are horrible -- grainy, harsh, unrefined, lacking dynamics.....

[mountaineagle]

Thanks Doug & Scotthobby!

Will check out the same when I get the deck.

Greg

[TheChairGuy]

Bob,

I've seen that refrain from others that VPI is some slick marketing company and the recent move to rim drive is just an effort to cash in on rim/idler drive enthusiasm in the market.

I'm not buying into that school of thought

30 years ago Harry Weisfeld made new plinths for JVC direct drive decks....in an effort to harness the excellent speed stability of direct drive decks with additional mass that they need to tame noise/rumble, etc with a design that is in some way flawed by having the motor an integral part of the platter.

It seems to me that his 30 year journey has wandered a bit over time (haven't all of us wandered over the past 30 years?), but his focus has been to make the best tables he can and stay in business making a profit.  As it turned out - he need not have invented a new wheel - all the right parts for making a standout turntable at a fair price have mostly been invented in the past.

He just packaged them in one place and has been able to introduce a deck at relatively modest prices (to vinylphools)

* Rigidly locked motor / platter / arm pivot on the same plane for speed stability
* Massive, aluminum platter dynamically balanced (flywheel affect - for speed stability)
* Each deck run in for minimum of 4 hours at the factory
* Pulleys are specced to very high tolerance for 'roundness' (essential for speed stability)
* Feedback resistant feet standard
* 10.5" arm for good tracking ability (optional fluid damping makes it more widely compatible)
* 56lb package uses mass damping to a great extent

I make nothing defending Harry Weisfeld - indeed I've neither met nor even talked to him (but I have his wife, Sheila), but I just don't see the observance that something about VPI is build on hype, spin or that HW is cashing in on recent retro trends. 

I just hate to see a guy, in my opinion, unfairly maligned by vinylphools (for whatever reason)

I know you're a VPI fan (and a good guy), I'm not at all riding you, but when I see something that seems at odds with reality, I have to buck up and say so.

John

[mountaineagle]

Mike at VPI suggested the Cayin A-50T integrated tube amp when I suggested something to go with the Classic.

Any experience of it?

Greg

[doug s.]

For the record, this is what Harry Weisfeld wrote over at AudioAsylum in January:

Posted by HW (M) on January 08, 2009 at 11:46:29

In Reply to: RE: Harry makes great tables posted by sberger on January 07, 2009 at 16:34:36

Guys, relax, I don't do any marketing, I have no interest in it. For me, read - FOR ME - this table is the first one that sounds closest to my master tapes in speed stability. So what! Who cares but me? I wanted a wood table that looked like the 19 but sounded better. I wound up with a really superb table that reminds me of the old Empires and Rek-O Kuts, I love that sound.

It is a really great sounding table for $2500.00, no more no less, but for me it is my favorite in the line and personally my favorite of them all. It does things for me that makes my vinyl playback sound more like the live music I hear. REMEMBER, I listen on a three channel system that does things differently than your regular two channel system so it is working superbly in that context.

The 10.5i is a wonderful arm and makes every table it is put on sound better, the speed stability is rock solid because the motor and platter are locked together, the inverted bearing is still wonderful. The Scout is still the best buy it always was, especially the "B" stock ones that MD is selling. THE SSM Rim Drive (as you will shortly read) is a killer table. The world has not changed.

Let's not make more of this than it is and look for some secret motive to making what I enjoy listening to!!!

HW

here's what got my attention re: what hw said:

...I wound up with a really superb table that reminds me of the old Empires and Rek-O Kuts, I love that sound...   

doug s.

[BobM]

Yup, Harry is a smart guy. And he does try to improve his produucts continually. That's whay I believe when people started reporting improvements due to rim drive and direct drive that he looked into it, and made a very good product to take advantage of it. And by association he is taking advantage of the recent hype for that kind of table. And making is a bit more retro looking adds to that perception.

Again, a very smart move. Not built on hype, nor active marketing beyond sending samples for review, but ceratinly taking advantage of it.

Yes, he has wandered about over time, experimenting here and there trying to offset costs with materials changes and such (i.e. all the platter type changes). But that's part of the game too. I think he was ingenious by offering an upgrade path in most of his designs, even the Scout. Not many others do this. And that upgrade path generates discussions about it being better and/or worth the cost, etc., which generates unofficial hype and marketing opportunities. Again, maybe not directly planned or instigated, but something that works very well for him in his overall business plan.

Believe me, I'm not accusing him of anything. I'm just saying he is shrewd to take advantage of it.

Hell, if there was a market call for Disney inspired maga carts wouldn't you be painting some of them with pictures of Micky Mouse on them and sell them?

Bob

[Wayner]

Doug s., I have not tried my Grado Longhorn in the Empire or my VPI HW-19. I just thought the arms were to massive for it. It's in the Technics right now. Maybe this fall I will fool around with it in either one of the tables.

John TCG, If your volume is at say 1:00 before you start hearing any hum and you have "fiddled" around with gain +/-  on various components, can you put into relative terms, how loud that is (maybe on a scale of 1 to 5, 1 soft and 5 cranked like a bastard), then maybe this Grado hum issue can  be put to bed. I hate to keep beating a dead horse on this (imagine icon here), but I have almost bought this table twice. I really wanted a perfect mate for a Grado woody and I'm  bumbed out.

Wayner

[TheChairGuy]

Well, most of my listening is maybe at a 1 or 2 on the scale of 5 as I listen while working.

But, it's late in my day now and my wife and daughter left the house...so I twiddled it to 1 o'clock.  I'd say it's a 3 or 3.5 on a scale of 5 and as loud as I ever typically listen to my system. 

It's loud enough that it scared the beejeezus out of our new kitten - how's that for reference sake Vangelis is playing - it's quite hypnotic at higher levels

AC member 'browntrout' has kindle lent me his Grado Reference for the past couple weeks and gave me the okay to move it from my JVC to the new VPI (I hadn't wanted to for fear of fumbly fingers transferring to a new deck...his $1200 Woody )

So, I will and report back on how that fares.

btw, that's the first I've twiddled the volume to 1 o'clock in maybe the last 20 hours and I have to say the sound has vastly improved from the first time.  It really sounded big and glorious in here.

Bass seems to be filling out, too, so my earlier criticism of uni-pivot may not have been warranted 

John

[TheChairGuy]

Chair Guy - you sold my HW-19 Mk. III ?  I swear these things are like old pianos....the good ones end up with as many owners as a feral tomcat !!!  I hope it found another good home - there was a lot of Steely Dan, Return to Forever, Herbie Hancock and Miles Davis played on that baby in it's day !!

Sorry - missed this post the other day.

Yes - a good home indeed...that of member Paul/orthobiz in MI now.

I re-fitted your table with a new motor, new (grease-bearing, harder surface) bearing and belt in the couple years owned.  Paul went the whole hog on it and bought my periphery ring (custom made for the HW-19 series) and SDS, too.

You had sold it to me with with hot-rodded VPI 250...which I replaced with an Audioquest PT-6 with Expressimo counterweight and VTAF (custom made for VPI armboard)

I think it still in it's shipping box as he went on a turntable buying spree of late - but he's getting around to setting in up soon But, he's got a very nice table to listen to when he does

John

[mountaineagle]

John,

I think it was on vinyl engine that one guy was very dismissive of the VPI Classic on the basis that in a year or 2 it would denigrate to the level of just any other turntable to which you replied that if you had to replace the motor every year, etc., you would do it.

Is there any sense to this argument as whilst I accept the Classic is simply an engineering device my hope is that it it so well-built it will stand the test of time better than most.

Greg 

[TheChairGuy]

Greg,

I replied that if I had to replace the motor in year 3 (I was just making up a number), I would.

Every mechanical device, like a turntable, will wear out in time

Every electronic device, like an amplifier, will burn out in time.

The poison you choose is the poison used

In other words, don't sweat it.  The VPI Classic seems no more prone to wear factors than any belt drive table.  All idler/rim and direct drive decks are subject to wear, too.

Tho among the three drive types, I'd think direct drive might have the least wear issues over time as there is no intermediary drive mechanism (a rubber wheel on on idler and a belt on a belt drive deck).

But, that should not be one's overriding concern...budget, sound and or convenience should be

John

[doug s.]

John,

I think it was on vinyl engine that one guy was very dismissive of the VPI Classic on the basis that in a year or 2 it would denigrate to the level of just any other turntable to which you replied that if you had to replace the motor every year, etc., you would do it.

Is there any sense to this argument as whilst I accept the Classic is simply an engineering device my hope is that it it so well-built it will stand the test of time better than most.

Greg

this deck was designed to be an update of the classic un-suspended empires; many of which are now ~50 years old, and need no service except belt replacement.  assuming the vpi classic's motor and bearing assembly are even close to the quality of the old empires, no reason to think the deck won't be working, w/o needing service at least as long as you are...   

doug s.

[Scottdazzle]

Greg,

That argument about the motor wearing out is patently ridiculous. What is there to wear out?  My previous table, a Thorens 125 with a very low power motor and heavy platter, must be 40 years old and still running strong.  I don't understand why some people have to denigrate others' products and choices. 

Scott