[Danny Richie]

There is a lot of talk and speculation, but so far, to the best of my knowledge, no one has shown any real evidence that the small variations in types of connectors can be heard.  It's all anecdotal reports. People are simply reporting what they want to hear.  It's mostly confirmation bias. Not a single scientific test.

Everyone around here that has tried them has reported an audible difference.

And the first step in a scientific test of this type is to establish if there is an audio difference. And that requires listening. That's something that these good people have done and you have not.

So until I see some sort of empirical proof of a difference I'll  continue to declare that there is none.  Science is on my side here.  Particularly when I read things about the mass of a connector affecting the sound.  There is absolutely no possibility of that happening.

Science is not on your side. You have done no science. You haven't even made one step. You are holding onto a belief just like the guys that think the earth is flat.

There are a lot of people drinking the cool aid, but no one doing any kind of serious testing.  Maybe they really don't want to know the true answer.

All that is needed is serious listening. And guys like you are my favorite guys to have over. A few listening comparisons and their bubbles pop.

[diyman]

Science is actually not on your side.  That's because science is open ended.  Always updating and revising theories as new evidence is discovered.  So a scientist would not dismiss observations out of hand merely because it did not fit the current accepted model.  In fact, to a scientist, one of the most interesting this is observations that don't fit the model.

So do you believe that the mass of a connector affects the signal passing through it and the sound from the speaker?

[Tyson]

So do you believe that the mass of a connector affects the signal passing through it and the sound from the speaker?

I did and do.  But my view changed over time.  I used to use high mass pure copper binding posts because to me it just seemed logical that with a high level signal like at the speaker level, that high mass would actually be better that medium or (especially) low mass.  For the same reason that 12ga wire is better for full range speaker signals than (say) 22ga. 

So yeah, I was biased, but biased against the very idea of a low mass connector. 

Then one day on a lark I tried some WBT low mass binding posts and I'll be damned if they didn't sound better.  That was pretty shocking to me actually. 

[Hobbsmeerkat]

That just simply is not true.  There are components whose effect on the signal is so small that it is totally inconsequential.  Too small to ever be audible to a human being or make any difference.  And connectors are certainly in that category.

There is a lot of talk and speculation, but so far, to the best of my knowledge, no one has shown any real evidence that the small variations in types of connectors can be heard.  It's all anecdotal reports. People are simply reporting what they want to hear.  It's mostly confirmation bias. Not a single scientific test.

So until I see some sort of empirical proof of a difference I'll  continue to declare that there is none.  Science is on my side here.  Particularly when I read things about the mass of a connector affecting the sound.  There is absolutely no possibility of that happening.

There are a lot of people drinking the cool aid, but no one doing any kind of serious testing.  Maybe they really don't want to know the true answer.

Have you ever tried using one cable on one speaker, and another with another speaker? Have you ever tried using a small gauge wire to drive a speaker against a larger gauge? Or is that snake oil too?

From my experience, there ARE differences & they ARE noticable.. but you simply REFUSE to even consider your understanding may be flawed.

I recently made a pair of hand-braided speaker cables, but only had enough wire for one speaker..
The set of cables I made had rolled off highs, causing a severe loss of detail & a dip volume in the upper treble range, esp with cymbal crashes.
The other speaker still using the old cable did not exhibit the issue. even after switching cables, the loss of highs followed the hand braided cables, and went away when the old cable was returned.

So, yes, in my experience, components CAN & DO make a difference, even cables.

You don't need to spend thousands, or even a hundred dollars for something of good quality, as the law of "dimishing returns" will kick fairly quickly, but to immediately deny that there is a possibility any difference may exist is simply unscientific and unrealistic. And the idea you also REFUSE to even TRY something for yourself, shows that no amount of "evidence" will sway you.

I wasn't expecting the differences i heard between these cables, but i still heard them, and it was the opposite of what I expected.

(FYI I don't have tube connectors on my XLS Encores, just the stock binding posts. However, I will be adding a pair to my next order to install & test them for myself. If you want to know the results, get yourself a pair and do your own testing. )

I don't have anything else to say on this matter, I'd only be repeating myself ad nauseum to no avail.

You've clearly made up your mind, & dug in your heels with no intentions to listen or consider anything but what you already believe.

[Doublej]

If the goal of the connector is a low mass, high quality material that puts the external speaker cable within fraction of the internal speaker wire, then perhaps Richard Vandersteen nailed it decades ago. No need for anything other than a high quality barrier strip on the back of the speaker.

Far simpler in design and far less expensive than an Electra Cable tube connector.

[Hobbsmeerkat]

If the goal of the connector is a low mass, high quality material that puts the external speaker cable within fraction of the internal speaker wire, then perhaps Richard Vandersteen nailed it decades ago. No need for anything other than a high quality barrier strip on the back of the speaker.

Far simpler in design and far less expensive than an Electra Cable tube connector.

Better yet, no connector at all, just a wire permanently running out the back. From the amp right to the crossover.

But binding posts/etc exist for the sake of convenience, to get something better, longer or shorter as your needs allow, like using cable already have on hand. But usually there is a trade off from using lower grade metals to keep costs down

[diyman]

I did and do.  But my view changed over time.  I used to use high mass pure copper binding posts because to me it just seemed logical that with a high level signal like at the speaker level, that high mass would actually be better that medium or (especially) low mass.  For the same reason that 12ga wire is better for full range speaker signals than (say) 22ga. 

So yeah, I was biased, but biased against the very idea of a low mass connector. 

Then one day on a lark I tried some WBT low mass binding posts and I'll be damned if they didn't sound better.  That was pretty shocking to me actually.

So please explain to me the equation for current flow that includes mass as a parameter.

I'm familiar with the various relationships between current and circuit paraments such as resistance, capacitance, inductance, frequency, electric fields and magnetic fields.  There is even a relationship to temperature.  But to the best of my knowledge, and it is rather sizeable in this area, there is no relationship to the mass of a conductor. 

Please cite your reference.  If you can't, then can we please stop this nonsense about the mass of a connector having anything to do with the sound.

[diyman]

Have you ever tried using one cable on one speaker, and another with another speaker? Have you ever tried using a small gauge wire to drive a speaker against a larger gauge? Or is that snake oil too?

From my experience, there ARE differences & they ARE noticable.. but you simply REFUSE to even consider your understanding may be flawed.

I recently made a pair of hand-braided speaker cables, but only had enough wire for one speaker..
The set of cables I made had rolled off highs, causing a severe loss of detail & a dip volume in the upper treble range, esp with cymbal crashes.
The other speaker still using the old cable did not exhibit the issue. even after switching cables, the loss of highs followed the hand braided cables, and went away when the old cable was returned.

So, yes, in my experience, components CAN & DO make a difference, even cables.

 ...
You've clearly made up your mind, & dug in your heels with no intentions to listen or consider anything but what you already believe.

I never said that there wasn't a difference in cables.  I would certainly expect a difference between a small gauge wire and a large gauge.  And between braided wire and straight wire. There are valid explanations for the differences.  And I appreciate your testing and experience with the braided cable.  That's very interesting.

But none of that has anything to do with the simple fact that a connector is an inconsequential component in terms of its resistance, capacitance, and inductance compared to those values of the total circuit.  The connector's values for those parameters are so small that they have no affect on the signal.

My mind is not closed at all.  I'm willing to consider anything that has a real basis in fact.  But not things that are made up, such as the mass of a connector can influence the current through it.

 

[Tyson]

All I can say is that I ran an experiment with high mass and low mass connectors and (counter to my expectations), the low mass ones sound better.  You're free to try it for yourself, or not. 

[MarvinTheMartian]

I found a tube connector substitute,  also no ferrous metal, low mass,  pure copper and crimped connection from a small German company.

https://www.wbt.de/english/products/a/Detailansicht/Artikel/nextgenTM-bananenstecker-neu-muenchen-2008.html

https://www.wbt.de/english/products/a/Detailansicht/Artikel/wbt-0710-cuag-1.html

You may have heard of them before,  too bad they are 4X the $$$$.

[FullRangeMan]

I have noted this tube connector from Danny is low mass what always is a positive thing to audio also they looks good and are full color identified in red and white, other brands have just a ring in red to identify the positive connector.
Another great product from GR Research.

[diyman]

All I can say is that I ran an experiment with high mass and low mass connectors and (counter to my expectations), the low mass ones sound better.  You're free to try it for yourself, or not.

I'm still waiting for the equation that includes mass as a parameter that influences current flow in a conductor.  Without that equation none of what you or others are reporting about connector mass and related sound has any validity whatsoever.

You can believe whatever you want.  But I won't accept your conclusions if they are without any possible scientific basis.  Nor should anyone else accept them. 

Let me know if you find the equation, or even a credible description of the relationship.  Good luck.

[jn316]

I'm still waiting for the equation that includes mass as a parameter that influences current flow in a conductor.  Without that equation none of what you or others are reporting about connector mass and related sound has any validity whatsoever.

You can believe whatever you want.  But I won't accept your conclusions if they are without any possible scientific basis.  Nor should anyone else accept them. 

Let me know if you find the equation, or even a credible description of the relationship.  Good luck.

Are you familiar with magnetic force in a current-carrying wire? The equation is F=IB where F=Force, I=current, B=magnetic field
I'm assuming that you know that Force= mass x acceleration so the amount of magnetic force on a wire is directly related to the mass of the conductor.  So mg=IB, I=mg/B

[Jonathon Janusz]

I'm still waiting for the equation that includes mass as a parameter that influences current flow in a conductor.

Granted there is absolutely no reference here as to if, how, or how much this influences the sound produced by a loudspeaker, but here is a quick crash course in electric current from an online textbook found with a Google search that took a few seconds:

https://physics.info/electric-current/

Reading down a bit, is what I found a very clear to understand (even for an almost layperson like myself) explanation of current density, discussed as both a function of current and surface area, and charge density and velocity.  This lead to a discussion rearranging calculations demonstrating how this shows how current also follows an equivalent product constant in the mass continuity equation.  Thus, we have a relationship between mass and electrical current flow.

This suggests to me that at least, on paper, because one can manipulate the surface area of a conductor by way of its mass (physical size of the conductor, assuming material composition is kept constant and in doing so trying to isolate just one variable for sake of research), how current flows through the conductor (density, velocity) can be changed in spite of (also supported by the above math) having the same current value measured with a multimeter at the input and output sides of a conductor.

[diyman]

Are you familiar with magnetic force in a current-carrying wire? The equation is F=IB where F=Force, I=current, B=magnetic field
I'm assuming that you know that Force= mass x acceleration so the amount of magnetic force on a wire is directly related to the mass of the conductor.  So mg=IB, I=mg/B

And the way this relates to the subject of a connector's mass influencing speaker sound is ???

[jn316]

And the way this relates to the subject of a connector's mass influencing speaker sound is ???

You asked for an equation and I gave you one. Now that you have one, will you do science and use observation (hearing) and experimentation (switching low mass and high mass connectors) to see if there is a difference?

[Jonathon Janusz]

And the way this relates to the subject of a connector's mass influencing speaker sound is ???

On an analog signal carrying connection, couldn't it influence the inductance within (either generated from/by the connector as current flows through it, or how it interacts with magnetic inductive fields outside of/surrounding) the system, and as a result particularly the high frequency delivery at (and from that point downstream of) the connector?

[diyman]

You asked for an equation and I gave you one. Now that you have one, will you do science and use observation (hearing) and experimentation (switching low mass and high mass connectors) to see if there is a difference?

I asked for an equation that related connector mass in the circuit to audio performance from the speaker.  You did not give me that, so your assertion is untrue and pointless.

And there is no science in the listening tests you propose.  They are nothing more than a means to form a subjective opinion.  That's not science. 

[diyman]

On an analog signal carrying connection, couldn't it influence the inductance within (either generated from/by the connector as current flows through it, or how it interacts with magnetic inductive fields outside of/surrounding) the system, and as a result particularly the high frequency delivery at (and from that point downstream of) the connector?

Of course, any magnetic field surrounding a current will influence it and visa versa.  However, in the case of the connectors being discussed here there is no difference in surrounding fields between it and wires attached to it.

[diyman]

Well, I looked into this "low mass" claim some more and apparently it is a marketing term used by certain connector manufacturers.  It does not mean, however, low mass in the context of weight.   They appear to be using it instead to signify small size.  In other words, if something is 'massive' that means it's large, but to indicate that it is small instead they use the term 'low mass' meaning it is the opposite of massive.

So that explains why there are no equations that related current through a conductor to its mass (i.e., weight)

Now the question becomes whether the size of a conductor can affect the current through it and to some extent it does.  Size and shape, along with material,  determine the conductor's resistance, which of course, in turn, determines the current for an applied voltage.

The question remains, however, whether the small variations in the size and shaper of various connectors typically used in speaker circuits have any affect whatsoever on the current that ultimately travels though the circuit and the driver coils.  I maintain that the resistance of connectors is so small, regardless of whether they are considered as 'low mass' or not, that there is no effect on the current and therefore none either on the sound.  This is a bunch of marketing gibberish in an attempt to get you to buy their product.