Tube connector idea

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Tyson

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #40 on: 14 Aug 2020, 08:53 pm »
Brass is certainly a poorer conductor that copper.  Binding posts and RCA connectors are almost always made out of brass.  Using something like a tube connector mostly works not through "magic" but by getting brass out of the signal path.  And in fact, copper is a measurably better conductor than brass. 

And I notice that even the "that's not supported by electrical theory" people don't use speaker wire or interconnects made out of brass.  They all use copper ICs and speaker wire.  Why?  Because it sounds better, obviously.  So if that's true of wire, why is it suddenly not true of the connectors?  Silly.

JakeJ

Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #41 on: 14 Aug 2020, 09:30 pm »
C'mon Tyson, you know darn well the physics of metallurgy cannot possibly have any effect on the physics of electricity.  Sheesh!

Early B.

Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #42 on: 14 Aug 2020, 09:44 pm »
I never said that there aren't some things that improve sound quality.  In fact, there are many things that affect it.  Just not speaker connectors assuming they are all of good quality.

The concept of "good quality" is very subjective. Are well-made brass binding posts considered good quality to you? It's OK if the answer is, "yes." Understand, though, there are others who wouldn't dare to put that garbage in their system because they've learned from experience that it sounds like crap. 
 
 

Tyson

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #43 on: 14 Aug 2020, 10:15 pm »
I'll just leave this here:

Material IACS   % Conductivity
Silver                      105
Copper.                   100
Gold                       70
Aluminum.              61
Nickel.                    22
Zinc                         27
Brass                      28
Iron                         17
Tin                         15
Phosphor Bronze      15
Lead                          7
Nickel Aluminum
Bronze.                    7
Steel                          3 to 15


PS, this is also why replacing capacitors in the signal path also makes a difference in sound.  Most caps (even 'good' ones) are made out of either tin foil or aluminum foil.  Replacing them with caps that use copper sound better because copper sounds better than tin or aluminum. 

Hobbsmeerkat

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #44 on: 14 Aug 2020, 10:35 pm »
I'd imagine that's also partly why many people say they don't like using silver cables, or silver coated copper? Those ive heard talking about them say they tends to create a harsh top end, esp on speakers that are already "bright." like older Klipsch speakers, and other speakers with horns & similar metal-based tweeters.

Tho, I cant say I totally understand why that is.

diyman

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #45 on: 14 Aug 2020, 10:45 pm »
...  Binding posts and RCA connectors are almost always made out of brass. ....

It's just not true that most binding posts are made out of brass.  Just the cheap ones are, and I specifically stated that quality was important.  Here are gold plated copper binding posts at 60% the cost of tube connectors.  And there is no reason to believe that they will not perform just as well.

https://www.amazon.com/BEKER-Connector-Audiophile-Amplifier-Terminal/dp/B07TCV56PV/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=copper+binding+posts&qid=1597443517&sr=8-1

Tyson

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #46 on: 14 Aug 2020, 10:46 pm »
It's just not true that most binding posts are made out of brass.  Just the cheap ones are, and I specifically stated that quality was important.  Here are gold plated copper binding posts at 60% the cost of tube connectors.  And there is no reason to believe that they will not perform just as well.

https://www.amazon.com/BEKER-Connector-Audiophile-Amplifier-Terminal/dp/B07TCV56PV/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=copper+binding+posts&qid=1597443517&sr=8-1


Well, if you can't trust your own ears, how will you ever know?

diyman

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #47 on: 14 Aug 2020, 10:56 pm »

Well, if you can't trust your own ears, how will you ever know?

Oh, I can trust my ears fine.  The question is can trust yours enough to make a time and money investment in something that I know has no basis for making any difference.  So far I haven't seen enough objective testing to do so.

Tyson

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #48 on: 14 Aug 2020, 11:00 pm »
Oh, I can trust my ears fine.  The question is can trust yours enough to make a time and money investment in something that I know has no basis for making any difference.  So far I haven't seen enough objective testing to do so.

Aren't you subject to the same bias that you say the rest of us are?

Early B.

Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #49 on: 14 Aug 2020, 11:25 pm »
It's just not true that most binding posts are made out of brass.  Just the cheap ones are, and I specifically stated that quality was important.  Here are gold plated copper binding posts at 60% the cost of tube connectors.  And there is no reason to believe that they will not perform just as well.

https://www.amazon.com/BEKER-Connector-Audiophile-Amplifier-Terminal/dp/B07TCV56PV/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=copper+binding+posts&qid=1597443517&sr=8-1

Do you actually believe these binding posts are made of pure copper??? And even if they were, the signal will travel along the gold plating which likely contains a fair amount of nickel or other cheap metals. The point of my previous post was that "good quality" is subjective.  Many of us would consider these to be low quality binding posts.

Don't believe everything you read. Quite often, claims from manufacturers are outright untruths.

 


Danny Richie

Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #50 on: 15 Aug 2020, 02:24 am »
It's just not true that most binding posts are made out of brass.  Just the cheap ones are, and I specifically stated that quality was important.  Here are gold plated copper binding posts at 60% the cost of tube connectors.  And there is no reason to believe that they will not perform just as well.

https://www.amazon.com/BEKER-Connector-Audiophile-Amplifier-Terminal/dp/B07TCV56PV/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=copper+binding+posts&qid=1597443517&sr=8-1

:lol: :lol: :lol: Actually there is a BIG difference still.

I bet those aren't even pure Copper. And I bet the nuts are ferromagnetic. And the mass causes some disruption in the signal transfer.

And you still need to go buy some good quality spades or bananas for your speaker cables. That can cost you even more than the those binding posts for some good ones. Have a look at what the good ones sell for by the pair: https://www.vampirewire.com/

And the tube connectors come with the male ends for your cables.

So they are actually still cheaper than even those cheapy binding post with spades.

Danny Richie

Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #51 on: 15 Aug 2020, 02:27 am »
Oh, I can trust my ears fine.  The question is can trust yours enough to make a time and money investment in something that I know has no basis for making any difference.  So far I haven't seen enough objective testing to do so.

Quit looking for answers with your eyes and use your ears.

These guys noticed a difference even using budget level gear. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLnBW3wuBSU&t=1s

Ron also made some audio recording using binding posts and tube connectors, and you can hear the difference in the recording.
« Last Edit: 15 Aug 2020, 03:51 pm by Danny Richie »

diyman

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #52 on: 15 Aug 2020, 08:16 am »
The resistance, capacitance and inductance of a quality binding post is so small as to be completely insignificant in affecting the current into the speaker.  There are major elements in the circuit, including the driver coil itself and crossover components, that totally dominate the current and the sound it produces.

To the best of my knowledge no one has ever demonstrated that binding posts have any effect.  It is all conjecture.  Detailed measurements and/or double blind tests could be conducted to settle the matter, but I’ve never seen any.

That referenced video has no merit whatsoever and proves nothing.  Bad enough that it’s not a double blind study; it isn’t even a single blind test.

It is entirely subjective and weak at that.  Every statement is prefaced with a caveat…  ‘I think’, ‘So subtle’, ‘Not obvious’, ‘I thought I heard’, Maybe slight increase’, ‘Maybe a tad more’, I thought maybe’.

And then Ron’s summary of  “Absolutely makes a difference” is a ridiculous statement based on the preceding interview.

Tube connectors may have some positive attributes, but improving sound quality over binding posts still remains unproven.



Hobbsmeerkat

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #53 on: 15 Aug 2020, 01:35 pm »
Every component in the chain makes a difference, be it large or small. If your plan is to match the original recording as cleanly as  possible, you want to have as little degradation of the source as possible. And each poor quality component will degrade the signal quality far more than something that makes a better connection using better quality materials.

Cables make a difference, power makes a difference, components, and the connections between each of them makes a difference. The point being to do as little harm to the original signal as possible,

No one here is claiming that tube connectors are a magic that will sprinkle fairy dust on the music to make it sound better. The point is doing minimal harm to that signal, by remaining low mass, non-ferrous, while providing a direct, solid connection along the signal path before it even gets to the crossover.

Even so, I honestly get the feeling that it doesn't matter what anyone says or does. Even if you had a panel of 10 blind folded people give their experience without an indication beyond being called A or B and having each of them give their own summation of the experience, I feel like you would still find a reason to deny it. Because there's no empirical tests that shows enough of a difference for you to consider it a possibility.

Do I expect you to believe what we have to say? No.
But i would have at least hoped you would be willing to consider a difference in perspective; set aside your own biases, do your own testing & come to your own conclusions.
« Last Edit: 15 Aug 2020, 02:46 pm by Hobbsmeerkat »

RonP

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #54 on: 15 Aug 2020, 03:34 pm »
Well said, Hobbs!

Danny Richie

Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #55 on: 15 Aug 2020, 04:03 pm »
The resistance, capacitance and inductance of a quality binding post is so small as to be completely insignificant in affecting the current into the speaker.  There are major elements in the circuit, including the driver coil itself and crossover components, that totally dominate the current and the sound it produces.

Yes, and the quality of those components matter as well.

Quote
To the best of my knowledge no one has ever demonstrated that binding posts have any effect.  It is all conjecture.  Detailed measurements and/or double blind tests could be conducted to settle the matter, but I’ve never seen any.

You guys kill me when you go straight to the catch phrases like double blind test.  :lol:  You realize that the term double blind test means that the person conducting the test (person doing the switching) and the subject (the listener) has no idea which is which. Well, that doesn't work in cases like this and nor does it matter. The reason it doesn't work is that the guy doing the switching always knows which is which. And if he isn't part of the listening panel then it doesn't matter anyway.

And I have conducted plenty of blind tests with groups of people. It always ends with a 100% one sided agreement.

Quote
That referenced video has no merit whatsoever and proves nothing.  Bad enough that it’s not a double blind study; it isn’t even a single blind test.

Again, not possible and it doesn't matter.

Quote
It is entirely subjective and weak at that.  Every statement is prefaced with a caveat…  ‘I think’, ‘So subtle’, ‘Not obvious’, ‘I thought I heard’, Maybe slight increase’, ‘Maybe a tad more’, I thought maybe’.

The funny part was that at Ron's brothers house (Jon's house) was a very budget level system (at that time). And they still heard a difference. On a top level system the difference becomes much more apparent and much more obvious real quickly.

Quote
And then Ron’s summary of  “Absolutely makes a difference” is a ridiculous statement based on the preceding interview.

It sounded as if it was pretty absolute over at his house on his system. And his audio recordings made with and without the tube connectors reveal the differences as well.

Quote
Tube connectors may have some positive attributes, but improving sound quality over binding posts still remains unproven.

No, it has been proven about a 100 times by the people that have tried them and given me their feedback.

It the end what matters is how it sounds. So our ears have to be the final judges.

diyman

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #56 on: 15 Aug 2020, 07:14 pm »
Every component in the chain makes a difference, be it large or small. ...

That just simply is not true.  There are components whose effect on the signal is so small that it is totally inconsequential.  Too small to ever be audible to a human being or make any difference.  And connectors are certainly in that category.

There is a lot of talk and speculation, but so far, to the best of my knowledge, no one has shown any real evidence that the small variations in types of connectors can be heard.  It's all anecdotal reports. People are simply reporting what they want to hear.  It's mostly confirmation bias. Not a single scientific test.

So until I see some sort of empirical proof of a difference I'll  continue to declare that there is none.  Science is on my side here.  Particularly when I read things about the mass of a connector affecting the sound.  There is absolutely no possibility of that happening.

There are a lot of people drinking the cool aid, but no one doing any kind of serious testing.  Maybe they really don't want to know the true answer.


diyman

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #57 on: 15 Aug 2020, 07:22 pm »
I would consider the video of the tube connector tests at Ron's brother's house a rather poor endorsement.

He hemmed and hawed through the whole thing with so many caveats that it left me thinking why would I ever want to try these if that's the best I can expect.

I can't find the other video you talked about with the direct comparison by Ron.  Would be glad to watch it if you can provide a link.

diyman

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #58 on: 15 Aug 2020, 07:42 pm »
I would consider the video of the tube connector tests at Ron's brother's house a rather poor endorsement.

He hemmed and hawed through the whole thing with so many caveats that it left me thinking why would I ever want to try these if that's the best I can expect.

I can't find the other video you talked about with the direct comparison by Ron.  Would be glad to watch it if you can provide a link.

Tyson

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #59 on: 15 Aug 2020, 07:48 pm »
That just simply is not true.  There are components whose effect on the signal is so small that it is totally inconsequential.  Too small to ever be audible to a human being or make any difference.  And connectors are certainly in that category.

There is a lot of talk and speculation, but so far, to the best of my knowledge, no one has shown any real evidence that the small variations in types of connectors can be heard.  It's all anecdotal reports. People are simply reporting what they want to hear.  It's mostly confirmation bias. Not a single scientific test.

So until I see some sort of empirical proof of a difference I'll  continue to declare that there is none.  Science is on my side here.  Particularly when I read things about the mass of a connector affecting the sound.  There is absolutely no possibility of that happening.

There are a lot of people drinking the cool aid, but no one doing any kind of serious testing.  Maybe they really don't want to know the true answer.



Science is actually not on your side.  That's because science is open ended.  Always updating and revising theories as new evidence is discovered.  So a scientist would not dismiss observations out of hand merely because it did not fit the current accepted model.  In fact, to a scientist, one of the most interesting this is observations that don't fit the model.