[Danny Richie]

 And the mass causes some disruption in the signal transfer.



Danny,  wouldn't there be just as much mass at that amplifier connection?  Have you designed / developed a lower mass connection for the the amplifier connection?

Tube connectors can be used on amplifiers too. Most of mine have them.

[Danny Richie]

Don't get too carried away with the idea that the mass (i.e. the size) of the connector will make any difference in the sound you hear.

I have yet to find anyone that has performed legitimate listener tests to prove that it matters, or is even audible.

I have 100's of customers that have performed legitimate listening comparisons. And since this next batch of tube connectors just arrived I have had over 100 or so orders to fill. It is easily audible. Everyone knows it but you. 

There are lots of anecdotal accounts, but no real scientific tests.   Nor can I find any studies that measure the so called 'time smear' based on high vs low frequency signal path differences. 

The phase shift in wire is easy to hear and easy to measure too. I can measure the phase shift with my Clio with Silver coated Copper verses pure Copper.

And I have demonstrated the audible difference many times with the simple playback of an acoustic guitar. The Silver coated Copper causes an audible separation of the body of the guitar from the upper end detail. It makes it sound like two instruments. And the Copper wire allows it to sound as if it is a signal instrument.

I'm sure you'll find lots of opinions, but not much in the way of real scientific evidence.  Many of the opinions will be presented as science, but they are not.

It sounds like the only opinion around here is yours.

[diyman]

I'm still researching this.  But your silver plated copper wire analysis does not apply to small all copper connectors.  They are two entirely different things.

[Danny Richie]

I'm still researching this.  But your silver plated copper wire analysis does not apply to small all copper connectors.  They are two entirely different things.

It related to what you said.

Nor can I find any studies that measure the so called 'time smear' based on high vs low frequency signal path differences.

If your research doesn't start in square number one then you aren't really doing any research. You may just be looking for any information that will confirm your belief. The first step (square number 1) is to determine if there is an audible difference.

[diyman]

Danny,

I'm not disputing whether there will be a time difference using silver plated copper wire.  I'm sure your Clio measurements are valid and there will be a difference.  All the more reason not to use that wire, and to use plain copper wire instead.

But that doesn't tell us anything about time differences in small copper connectors.  That's a whole different geometry and issue. 

Just to be clear, I'm not disputing the performance of tube connectors.  I'm sure it is very good and there is no reason to believe there would be any time smear. 

However, the same statement can be made about other small copper speaker connectors.  There are some quality low mass copper binding posts that appear to have very short signal paths comparable to tube connectors.   It is perfectly reasonable to assume that their performance would be the same as tube connectors. 

So I don't dispute that there are many satisfied users of tube connectors.  And I'm glad to hear it.  But they might be just as satisfied with other products and there is no proof that they wouldn't be.  The fact that some have replaced existing connectors with tube connectors and hear an improvement doesn't tell us anything, since we don't know what they removed. 

Without a head to head, well controlled test against other quality low mass copper connectors there can be no conclusion.

[jtwrace]

Without a head to head, well controlled test against other quality low mass copper connectors there can be no conclusion.

While that is indeed 100% true, only the people that want to take their system up another notch use Tube Connectors...


 
...the others use the best - Neutrik speakON.   

[Danny Richie]

While that is indeed 100% true, only the people that want to take their system up another notch use Tube Connectors...

...the others use the best - Neutrik speakON.

Actually those sound awful compared to tube connectors.

We only use them for our subs.

Get your magnets out. There are a lot of ferrous parts in there. 

[Danny Richie]

However, the same statement can be made about other small copper speaker connectors.  There are some quality low mass copper binding posts that appear to have very short signal paths comparable to tube connectors.   It is perfectly reasonable to assume that their performance would be the same as tube connectors. 

You are making an assumption. We aren't assuming that tube connectors will sound better. We've compared them.

So I don't dispute that there are many satisfied users of tube connectors.  And I'm glad to hear it.  But they might be just as satisfied with other products and there is no proof that they wouldn't be.  The fact that some have replaced existing connectors with tube connectors and hear an improvement doesn't tell us anything, since we don't know what they removed. 

I get feedback from them all the time. Most of them parallel the tube connectors to other binding posts so that they can use either/or.

Without a head to head, well controlled test against other quality low mass copper connectors there can be no conclusion.

We've done the head to head. The conclusion was obvious.

[jtwrace]

Actually those sound awful compared to tube connectors.

We only use them for our subs.

Get your magnets out. There are a lot of ferrous parts in there.

Read the spec sheet..


 

[Danny Richie]

Read the spec sheet..


 

Ha, ha, I can one up that. I have them here and I have some Neo magnets. They stick hard. And that goes for male and female ends.

[jtwrace]

Ha, ha, I can one up that. I have them here and I have some Neo magnets. They stick hard. And that goes for male and female ends.

Well, unlike your speaker data that wasn't updated, maybe they have changed but since they're backed by research their technical sheet shows the material.  I can promise you that a company of this size doesn't mess around with their engineering specs. 


https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/build-of-gr-research-x-ls-encore.14312/page-10#post-496012
 

[Danny Richie]

Well, unlike your speaker data that wasn't updated, maybe they have changed but since they're backed by research their technical sheet shows the material.  I can promise you that a company of this size doesn't mess around with their engineering specs. 


https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/build-of-gr-research-x-ls-encore.14312/page-10#post-496012
 

The update to the X-LS Encore is just a few weeks old. And the update had little to no effect on the measured responses. The drivers will have a greater variance than the difference in the response from the update. And yes I know they try to discredit everything over there. But most people know better.

And nothing about the Neutrik connectors have changed. They have always been like that. There are a LOT better options out there.

[jtwrace]

The update to the X-LS Encore is just a few weeks old. And the update had little to no effect on the measured responses. The drivers will have a greater variance than the difference in the response from the update. And yes I know they try to discredit everything over there. But most people know better.

And nothing about the Neutrik connectors have changed. They have always been like that. There are a LOT better options out there.

Of course. 

[diyman]

You are making an assumption. We aren't assuming that tube connectors will sound better. We've compared them.

I get feedback from them all the time. Most of them parallel the tube connectors to other binding posts so that they can use either/or.

We've done the head to head. The conclusion was obvious.

Danny,

I really don’t see any point in continuing this discussion.

I’m perfectly willing to agree that tube connectors can be a very good way to connect speaker wires and probably have no affect on the signal.  Therefore, they do not alter the sound.  They are essentially transparent.

However, I’m confident that exactly the same can be said for other connectors, particularly those that are considered to be low mass and made from quality copper.  But I do not accept your claim that tube connectors sound different these others. 

There is no proof of any differences.  Just a lot of anecdotal reports made by you and your customers.  You appear to be opposed to well controlled, scientific comparison testing and claim that your testing is just as good or better.  However, your testing is not unbiased.  In fact it is heavily biased and therefore I do not accept your conclusions.

Enough said.  We are going around and around in circles and probably will never agree. I can’t spend anymore time on this, and frankly I doubt that you can either.  Need to move on.   

[WC]

I plan to check out if I can notice a difference between tube connectors or speakons (don't like binding posts). I built some of my speakers with both. Some of the amps I am building will have both also, but all will have speakons.

[S Clark]

I really don’t see any point in continuing this discussion.

There never is a point when you go to a vendors site to question the efficacy of his products. 

[Danny Richie]

Danny,

I really don’t see any point in continuing this discussion.

I’m perfectly willing to agree that tube connectors can be a very good way to connect speaker wires and probably have no affect on the signal.  Therefore, they do not alter the sound.  They are essentially transparent.

They are the next best thing to having no break in the signal path.

However, I’m confident that exactly the same can be said for other connectors, particularly those that are considered to be low mass and made from quality copper. 

So you're confident huh? It's good to be able to feel comfortable in your beliefs.

But I do not accept your claim that tube connectors sound different these others.

 

Please don't take my word for it. Do your do diligence and make your own listening comparisons.

There is no proof of any differences.

  No, you just don't want to accept that there are differences. You certainly can't prove anything otherwise.

You appear to be opposed to well controlled, scientific comparison testing and claim that your testing is just as good or better.

No, I am very much in favor or controlled comparisons and testing. And we have made those comparisons.

However, your testing is not unbiased.  In fact it is heavily biased and therefore I do not accept your conclusions.

No, I am not like you. I don't go in with a preconceived belief. The result has to be unequivocally better and repeatably concluded or we can't bring it to market as being better.

[diyman]

There never is a point when you go to a vendors site to question the efficacy of his products.

But I'm not questioning the efficacy of the product and never have.  I fact, I've said that I believe it performs very well and exactly as advertised.

My point consistently has been there is no proof that competitive products do not perform just as well.   A lot of assertions, a lot of hearsay, but no proof.

When a company wants to promote the features and benefits of its products that's fine.  It good marketing and I've been there.  But when you claim a significant performance advantage over your competitors you better be able to prove it.  Otherwise, persnickety people like me might call you to task.

[S Clark]

You have clearly stated that there is no difference between these connectors and other options.  "But I do not accept your claim that tube connectors sound different these others.  "
I most assuredly DON"T have golden ears, and I can hear differences- perhaps unmeasureable by anything but my ears, but those are the only measuring devices I listen with.  My ears have no relevance to you, so you need to use your own ears to evaluate. 

I'll make you an offer,.  Buy a set from Danny, and if you find no differences, clean them up and send them to me, and I'll buy them at 75% of retail.    You'll be out shipping and a bit of depreciation, but then you can stop speculating and actually listen. 

[Tyson]

....then you can stop speculating and actually listen. 

I think you missed the prior post where diyman stated he doesn't trust his own ears to tell what's better or not.  And not just with connectors but with things like speakers too.