Tube connector idea

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MarvinTheMartian

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #80 on: 16 Aug 2020, 04:28 am »
diyman:

How do you like the sound of classical on your new Piccolos?
Nothing else matters.

We try to help here.

Jonathon Janusz

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #81 on: 16 Aug 2020, 05:11 am »
However, in the case of the connectors being discussed here there is no difference in surrounding fields between it and wires attached to it.

Whether it presents an audible change or not (and why that might be or how this change presents itself) aside, respectfully, the math provided above doesn't support your statement.  Presuming the math above holds true, the mass of the connectors involved has to change the interaction of any magnetic fields around and through the connection they make because at the very least the inductive properties of the signal path through the connectors is different. 

This is actually kind of the point of the tube connectors - insert as little of anything as possible and have whatever little must be there have optimal conductivity properties such that a connection can be made as close to being a contiguous run of wire as possible with the goal of minimizing as many influences on the electrical conductivity of the overall system (the wire) as can be done while also maintaining the practical functionality of an easily used interconnect.

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Well, I looked into this "low mass" claim some more and apparently it is a marketing term used by certain connector manufacturers.  It does not mean, however, low mass in the context of weight.   They appear to be using it instead to signify small size.  In other words, if something is 'massive' that means it's large, but to indicate that it is small instead they use the term 'low mass' meaning it is the opposite of massive.

Granted, there is a lot of technical jargon that gets creatively applied in the audio industry.  In this case, I have to disagree in that I don't think the marketing is too far off the mark.  Does a dimensional measured smaller connector (of a specific material) that has a total volume less than another larger connector (of the same material) not a "low(er) mass" connector?  Does a connector that uses a material with a density less than another (of the same physical dimensions defining its volume) not have a "low(er) mass"?

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So that explains why there are no equations that related current through a conductor to its mass (i.e., weight)

1. See the link I noted above regarding equations relating current and mass through a conductor.  The equations are there, plain to see.
2. Please try not to muddy the water further; strictly speaking (as you are asking for equations, this kind of thing matters) mass and weight are two completely different things and the terms are often incorrectly interchanged.

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Now the question becomes whether the size of a conductor can affect the current through it and to some extent it does.  Size and shape, along with material,  determine the conductor's resistance, which of course, in turn, determines the current for an applied voltage.

What I found most interesting in the few minutes I took to look this up is that now with a little more knowledge of the math involved (even on a very basic level, as I am by no means a materials engineer/scientist) maybe the keys to understanding the why of this objectively lie somewhere not in that the electrons simply get from A to B in the same quantities from input end to output, but in the nuances of exactly how the electrons find their way across materials in time and concentration, which I think might be a critical point of examination if one had a pile of research budget to spend considering sound reproduction is heavily reliant on the timing and magnitude of both electrical and mechanical parts within at least the final analog end of a sound reproduction system.

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The question remains, however, whether the small variations in the size and shape of various connectors typically used in speaker circuits have any affect whatsoever on the current that ultimately travels though the circuit and the driver coils.

Again, see above.  I think we've pretty confidently demonstrated here that objectively at least according to the math it can, and this is backed up at least anecdotally subjectively by at least a few (hundred) people.  So, maybe it isn't so much the question being, "if," but "how, why, how much, how do we measure it, and how do we reliably manipulate it to achieve a desired result".

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I maintain that the resistance of connectors is so small, regardless of whether they are considered as 'low mass' or not, that there is no effect on the current and therefore none either on the sound.

This isn't a bad hypothesis if one were to try to figure out if connector resistance changes sound output in a music reproduction system, but the math seems to indicate that if you're only focused on resistance of the connectors, you are missing altogether how the mass of the connector actually may or may not alter current flow and by extension the final sound output of the music reproduction system.  Your hypothesis may be isolating and trying to measure the wrong thing.

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This is a bunch of marketing gibberish in an attempt to get you to buy their product.

I won't argue in this world there is a lot of marketing going on.  In this case, however, based on the support you asked for in a counter argument to your point I think you're mistaking a lack of deep-dive research data on a relatively esoteric subject but a combination of good-faith subjective data and some independent testing and study on the topic as baseless marketing with a pretty heavy hand in spite of what looks like evidence to the contrary.

In the end, if you don't think adding tube connectors (or anything else for that matter) will change the sound of your stereo, and you're happy with the sound you've got, great!  If you've got everything else dialed in to get you 99.9% of the way there and you're down to examining connectors on wires to get you that last 0.1% of the way, I hope this discussion at least showed you that connectors - both subjectively and objectively - might be worth a shot. :thumb:

diyman

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #82 on: 16 Aug 2020, 05:37 am »
diyman:

How do you like the sound of classical on your new Piccolos?
Nothing else matters.

We try to help here.

I like it. The Piccolos are excellent for classical.  They have very good dynamic range for a 2-way, which is critical for orchestral music.

It's hard to imagine a 2-way for just $343 that could be much better.   

MarvinTheMartian

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #83 on: 16 Aug 2020, 06:15 am »
diyman:

Piccolos face edge = square, round-over or thumbnail ?
Show us some pictures

Play Tunes


diyman

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #84 on: 16 Aug 2020, 06:49 pm »
diyman:

Piccolos face edge = square, round-over or thumbnail ?
Show us some pictures

Play Tunes

As much as I enjoy discussing my satisfaction with the Piccolos, I think this is not the right place.  The subject of this thread is tube connectors and that has nothing to do with the Piccolo speakers.  And I don't think many people following this thread care about them. 

If you would like to start another thread to discuss them I'll join you over there.  Plus with Piccolo in the title you'll probably get some more opinions from people who are not following this thread.
« Last Edit: 16 Aug 2020, 09:30 pm by diyman »

jn316

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #85 on: 16 Aug 2020, 07:30 pm »
And there is no science in the listening tests you propose.  They are nothing more than a means to form a subjective opinion.  That's not science.

"sci·ence
/ˈsīəns/
the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment."

Can we trust any of our senses? I think I'm looking at my computer screen, but can I prove that scientifically? If I use an instrument to measure something, can I trust that my eyes are really seeing the numbers/waveforms I'm looking at? Does perception match reality in anything?

Tyson

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #86 on: 16 Aug 2020, 08:14 pm »
diyman, how do you think science advances?  It advances by keeping itself open to new observations, new ideas and new data. 

Well, here's some observational data.  It's not perfect but it has been replicated across different systems and with different listeners.  To a real scientist this would not be threatening (ie, they would not say "well this doesn't fit my model so lets discard it).  Rather, a real scientist would be intrigued and ask questions like "well why doesn't this fit my model?" and "can I verify this myself" and "what other ways might this be explained". 

Which is the exact opposite of what you are doing.  In fact, what you are doing is called dogma, not science.  Being skeptical is fine.  But being dogmatically closed minded and simply refusing to even entertain the possibility that there might be a change.... well, it's definitely not science. 

diyman

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #87 on: 16 Aug 2020, 09:57 pm »
diyman, how do you think science advances?  It advances by keeping itself open to new observations, new ideas and new data. 

Well, here's some observational data.  It's not perfect but it has been replicated across different systems and with different listeners.  To a real scientist this would not be threatening (ie, they would not say "well this doesn't fit my model so lets discard it).  Rather, a real scientist would be intrigued and ask questions like "well why doesn't this fit my model?" and "can I verify this myself" and "what other ways might this be explained". 

Which is the exact opposite of what you are doing.  In fact, what you are doing is called dogma, not science.  Being skeptical is fine.  But being dogmatically closed minded and simply refusing to even entertain the possibility that there might be a change.... well, it's definitely not science.

I don't think you or jn316 get it.  I'm being MORE scientific, NOT LESS, by insisting on double blind listening tests in order to come to any meaningful conclusions about sound quality.  And that's not just my position.  It's fundamental to professionals like Dr. Floyd Toole who have far more knowledge of the subject than either of us.

Self testing, even with friends, is meaningless.  It is uncontrolled and filled with confirmation biases.  And the video of Ron doing a completely uncontrolled test with his brother is a perfect example.  It is impossible to take away any meaningful conclusions from that video.  To do so is being unscientific and foolish.

But that shouldn't stop you from doing whatever tests you like.  If it makes you happy and satisfied that's fine.  But no one should expect anyone else to accept their conclusions from uncontrolled test as anything more than an opinion. 

So please stop claiming that I'm not being scientific when exactly the opposite is the case.  Thanks.

Tyson

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #88 on: 16 Aug 2020, 10:49 pm »
Let me ask you something - when you built your Picolo speakers and put them in your system, did you DBT them with your prior pair? 

If you didn't do a DBT, how in the world can anyone take seriously your assertion that the new speakers sound different, let alone "better".  It's all just hearsay and opinion.  In fact, I am willing to bet your new speakers actually sound worse than your old ones, but your own confirmation bias of being a proud papa builder of them makes you totally unreliable. 

Of course I'm being silly.  Obviously you have he ability to put something into your system and tell if it sounds better or not just by listening.  So why are you allowed to offer opinions on what speakers sound better and we're not allowed to offer opinions on what connectors sound better?

diyman

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #89 on: 16 Aug 2020, 11:25 pm »
Let me ask you something - when you built your Picolo speakers and put them in your system, did you DBT them with your prior pair? 

If you didn't do a DBT, how in the world can anyone take seriously your assertion that the new speakers sound different, let alone "better".  It's all just hearsay and opinion.  In fact, I am willing to bet your new speakers actually sound worse than your old ones, but your own confirmation bias of being a proud papa builder of them makes you totally unreliable. 

Of course I'm being silly.  Obviously you have he ability to put something into your system and tell if it sounds better or not just by listening.  So why are you allowed to offer opinions on what speakers sound better and we're not allowed to offer opinions on what connectors sound better?

I'm not offering opinions on what speakers sound better and I never have.  Nor have I denied anyone the ability to offer opinions on what connectors they think sound better.

I've just cautioned anyone who cares that those are opinions and nothing more.  They are not the results from well controlled objective tests.

Tyson

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #90 on: 16 Aug 2020, 11:34 pm »
And I'm cautioning anyone who cares that your assertions are baseless as you've not even tried it yourself nor are you willing to even give it a chance. 

A difference is a difference.  Whether we understand the mechanism for it is irrelevant.

Early B.

Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #91 on: 16 Aug 2020, 11:37 pm »

So please stop claiming that I'm not being scientific when exactly the opposite is the case.  Thanks.

No, you're erroneously attempting to apply scientific principles and advocate for "well controlled objective tests" in situations that don't require it.

This is an audio forum where people give their OPINIONS of what sounds good to them. You can't ask for "objective opinions." It's not a logical request.

   

jn316

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #92 on: 16 Aug 2020, 11:57 pm »
All that is needed is serious listening. And guys like you are my favorite guys to have over. A few listening comparisons and their bubbles pop.
Diyman, my last comment on this topic: If you have the means, I would see if Danny will let you come down to TX and take a listen to his rig and compare the tube connectors vs other connectors, everything else being the same. Heck, I would join you if I had the extra cash, but I don't. You are extremely skeptical that there will be ANY sound difference, so your "bias" would be to find no difference. How much better proof would there be than for YOU to actually hear a difference! I think that is the "bubbles pop" Danny is referring to.

diyman

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #93 on: 17 Aug 2020, 12:32 am »
No, you're erroneously attempting to apply scientific principles and advocate for "well controlled objective tests" in situations that don't require it.

OK.  I'll try to let Dr. Toole know that he wasted his time writing a 500 page book on the subject.  All he had to do is talk to Early B. for the answers.

Tyson

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #94 on: 17 Aug 2020, 12:47 am »
OK.  I'll try to let Dr. Toole know that he wasted his time writing a 500 page book on the subject.  All he had to do is talk to Early B. for the answers.

This is called 'argumentum ad verecundiam' and is a logical fallacy.  Also known as 'appeal to authority'.  Most people trot it out when they've lost.

FullRangeMan

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #95 on: 17 Aug 2020, 12:53 am »
  So why are you allowed to offer opinions on what speakers sound better and we're not allowed to offer opinions on what connectors sound better?
+1 Well noted.
« Last Edit: 17 Aug 2020, 04:45 am by FullRangeMan »

Danny Richie

Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #96 on: 17 Aug 2020, 12:54 am »

This is a bunch of marketing gibberish in an attempt to get you to buy their product.

For some reason you keep trying to assert your belief as if it were fact having done no science at all.

And you are trying to convince a group of people that have done the science (have made comparisons) and reached conclusions that confirm the opposite of your belief. Do you really think that you are going to convince anyone?

Hobbsmeerkat

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #97 on: 17 Aug 2020, 02:09 am »
For some reason you keep trying to assert your belief as if it were fact having done no science at all.

And you are trying to convince a group of people that have done the science (have made comparisons) and reached conclusions that confirm the opposite of your belief. Do you really think that you are going to convince anyone?

So far I've only been able to test via the YouTube video linked earlier. which i did again last night. However as i mentioned earlier, i will be adding a set to my next order to do my own in-person testing without YouTube's compression.

The difference I heard within the video were within the vocals, which as best i can describe it:
Vocals with binding posts had a slight smearing within the decay, which had a gritty noise to it. (Think how a phone camera take pictures in a dimly lit room: image noise & often some slight blur.)

When audio switched to the tube connectors, the gritty-ness of the trailing vocals vanished, causing less smearing within the decay, making them stand out because they were better defined.
As though this hypothetical room was made just a little brighter, allowing for a cleaner, clearer image.

If your source & other components aren't good, you won't notice any difference, because the issue exists before the signal even arrived to your cables/connection/speakers. And if your speakers crossover/drivers aren't of great quality either, you wont notice a difference there either, since they're doing more harm than the connection would show.

Like I said, they aren't "magic", but they're certainly not making it worse either.

There's often a saying that goes, "there's no capacitor, like no capacitor" & theoretically speaking, "there's no connecton like no connecton" should also be true, with the ideal being from source signal directly connected to the driver.
The fewer components you have in your signature path, the more clean your signal should be, no?

However its not entirely realistic, no source can drive any driver perfectly.
You need to amplify the signal to have enough power to drive the speakers at a reasonable level, and you need a crossover to control multiple drivers, and thus you also need to connect the amplifier to the crossover. You could theoretically run a cable from the output solder joints of the amp directly to the crossover for the best possible retention of signal quality, but is that a convenient solution? Adding connection points at the amp and Speaker makes it easier and more convenient, but slapping on the cheapest terminals you can find isn't ideal because youre adding more connections and often different metals to the signal path, tube connectors are the closest you can get to a continuous run of wire without actually using a continuous run of wire.

That'd said, I'll be doing my own testing here in the next couple weeks, and coming to my own conclusions.
I may not be able to explain the difference scientifically, but I don't need to, cuz I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is and do my own testing.

JakeJ

Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #98 on: 17 Aug 2020, 02:27 am »
Hobbsmeerkat,

If you have the ability to do measurements, great, but do please tell us what you hear!  That is what's most important to me.

Thanks,
Jake

diyman

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Re: Tube connector idea
« Reply #99 on: 17 Aug 2020, 04:20 am »
For some reason you keep trying to assert your belief as if it were fact having done no science at all.

And you are trying to convince a group of people that have done the science (have made comparisons) and reached conclusions that confirm the opposite of your belief. Do you really think that you are going to convince anyone?

Making subjective comparisons in an uncontrolled experiment is not science.  It is exactly the opposite of science.  No matter how many times you or others here try to call it science, it isn't.  So call it what it is:  a subjective opinion poll.

You can pan double blind listening tests with a qualified panel all you want, but that is as scientific as anyone has gotten in audio performance comparisons.

There have been references to a YouTube video with Ron comparing speakers with and without tube connectors.  I could only find the one video with his brother and that has already been discussed.  If there is another I would be interested in seeing it if you can provide the link.