[Napalm]

I am amazed at how mean people can be on this site.

Oh yes? We're actually not trying to sell useless gadgets at $2000 each and we hadn't (yet) used the  emoticon.

Nap.

[neobop]

Reviewers are not audio gods. That distinction is reserved for designers. I remember when these guys often got gifts of the equipment they reviewed. The manufacturers are also advertisers. I think they've cleaned that up (the gifts), but subjective reviewing has always been the object of scorn, by some.

Fremer (who seems to be one of the more astute ones) discovered this SRA analysis from 1981, and applied it to this Ortofon that he admittedly missed the mark with. All of a sudden we haven't heard our cartridges unless we go 92, so to speak. But even John Risch says:

"This set it and forget it SRA alignment will playback 80% of all records with a minimum of average SRA error, usually within a degree or two of the record groove walls rake angle. Anything less than 0.5 degrees off of exact alignment for a particular combination of groove wall rake angle and SRA is not very audible, although an error in the direction of too high at the tonearm pivot (shank top more away from the tone arm pivot) will tend to sound worse. That is why this average SRA angle is biased toward a slightly higher average error in the benign direction, and not the other way."

I think it's safe to say that 80% is an estimate. Not only that, the range of optimal SRA is between 1 degree and 5 degrees from perpendicular:

"This adjustment will at least get you in the ball park for a starting point. It helps to remember that if you adjust the SRA by ear for a particular record, you may be as much as 5 degrees or more off for another record."

Or more? I'm not trying to kill the messenger, but it might help to have the whole story. I suppose, for the set and forget people it's useful information. I still haven't read the article or seen the video. I'm discussing a topic, SRA. Analogcorner is another member and deserves no more or less respect than anyone else.

[jimdgoulding]

Neo, you have your own mind, a learned and experienced mind, and so do I, and you are insulted that a popular and influential reviewer, not to mention well paid, would stake something that you know is not real world and therefore not worthy of credence.  On both counts, I don't disagree . . but, I am personally incapable of making all the adjustments.  As much as I would like to, I gotta change the kitty litter besides adjusting my SRA.  I'm an eighty percenter, consequently, shit. Most cats are probably eighty percenters, too, shit.  I can't complain, I don't have 100% epiphanies in my collection anyway.  So, for guys like myself, information in this topic is and will continue to be useful.  As it turns out according to Fremer and Grado courtesy of Wayner, for the majority of my 70's and 80's recordings, I was and am gettin the goods.  I never really doubted it.  I couldn't.  And I did it by ear.  But, for the 180g's and a few pretty thick DTD's that I have, like Crystal Clear's, I'm gonna find a more optimal setting, thanks to you for that and I know damn well you are right.

I don't recall seeing posts from you and Nap before, my bad, but I hope to see many more.  And good for you, Wayner, for stayin in step and not getting defensive.  You're a fine chap.

[Ericus Rex]

I too am dismayed by the insults thrown around about this topic.  I doubt MF would have responded in the first place were there not an all-out attack of his credentials.  Unfortunately, he responded with equally damning insults.  Some here only registered his retaliation and that's not fair.  I think he should be treated as a respected equal here, not a God as some may say.  Other manufacturer's on this very site are selling their versions of "useless $2,000 gadgets," and in general we aren't treating them with the same level of contempt.

[Wayner]

I have finished going thru  3 of the 6 tables I have, at least checking the 92 degree thing, and I don't think it's a waste of time. Yesterday, I raised the Rega RB300 tonearm on my home made ARMod table, and there was marked improvement, cymbal crashes are awesome, they sound real, and the sound stage is fun. I haven't done the VPI or Empire yet, but I don't listen to them much.

No, Micheal didn't invent the 92 SRA thing, but he did remind us of it, which in itself is a good thing. I'm all for anything that can improve vinyl playback. To me, many tweaks just don't work. This one does.

In my mind, all AC members need to be treated as with respect.

Wayner

[steveblezy]

Wayner, I have a quick question for you. As you are increasing your VTA are you revisiting your cart alignment? The math would say that your overhang would decrease a little. I have been using the Dr Feickert protractor for years and did a check before the vta increase and after. There was a small difference (pretty easy to see with his tool). And I agree regarding your comment that Micheal is only reminding people about this. For years I will following may little tips from the 'phono pdf' by Van den Hul where he also state that most carts will sound better if you raise the vta by 4mm-8mm from parallel. Although he did not get into the 92 degree angle, he is basically speaking about the same thing. 

Steve

[SteveFord]

Steveblezy,
I'm glad to read your last post.  After reading this thread I started worrying about VTA and tried the arm on the Well Tempered pretty much parallel and went right back to having the pivot raised quite a bit.
The sound went from really good to not so good to really good once again.  I've decided that when things sound right I should keep my fat little figers away from the controls.

[Napalm]

Other manufacturer's on this very site are selling their versions of "useless $2,000 gadgets," and in general we aren't treating them with the same level of contempt.

Note the word "manufacturer". Mr. F's business was to sell you informative, dependable reviews that would help you navigate through the chaos created by these manufacturers. He failed at that more than once, and whether it was sheer incompetence or just dishonesty, his credibility is very low now.

Nap. 

[doctorno]

Nap,
Sorry to inform you but MF's credibility is one of the highest in the reviewing business. Most succumb to their advertisers. He doesn't.
Do you have an axe to grind with him personally?
I may or may not agree with what some people like but I would never publicly bash the guy for it. Besides we had a sort of celebrity visit us here on AC, I doubt he would want to come back.
The guy has tons of experience with lots of different gear, granted alot of it is very expensive gear but I have no interest in covering a cheap DJ table with putty and claiming it to be great.
Lots of very biased people here on this forum, most with very little experience it seems to me.

Karl

[jsaliga]

Jez, give it a rest already.  Can we please keep this about SRA? 

I am curious whether or not the empirical evidence that was referenced earlier is genuine.  That means that the distortion described has been measured and is quantifiable - not that it's higher or lower just because someone says it is (which would be anecdotal).

--Jerome

[TheChairGuy]

Alright, I took a day-and-a half mostly off to chill and I see an innocuous looking-enough subject heat up

Please focus on VTA/SRA that the topic is for.

I'm honored Michael Fremer visited us (again) - he's a big-boy that no one need defend.  While his communication methods are come up regularly more than coarse here and elsewhere - his end results and dedication to better vinyl playback and a vinyl renaissance, somewhat justify putting up with it.   

Let's just stay on topic - no airing of dirty laundry, etc - and we'll all learn something.

Admission - in my meanderings over time, I have found audiophools overly focused on VTA/SRA.  Surely the subject merits discussion...but I think is outside of the top 20 things to get right to enjoy vinyl.  I have found cartridge azimuth (or 'yaw') with hyper-elliptical styli a WAAAAAY more important geometry to get right to enjoy better vinyl...and less frequently discussed.

I'm don't entirely side with Roy 'VTA doesn't matter' Gandy of Rega on this one...but, it's well down on the list of things to get right to enjoy vinyl. 

Nonetheless, my hats off to Mr. Fremer for championing the importance of optimal VTA, those of you that choose to pursue some optimal VTA, and Wayner for testing it's implementation it fully  

John / Facilitator - The Vinyl Circle

[hesson11]

I am curious whether or not the empirical evidence that was referenced earlier is genuine.  That means that the distortion described has been measured and is quantifiable - not that it's higher or lower just because someone says it is (which would be anecdotal).

Distortion charts, graphs and test methodologies are included in the articles by Risch and Maier that have frequently been cited in this thread. I'm not enough of a technologist to evaluate their validity, but I defer to the editors of "Popular Science," "High Fidelity" and "Audio" magazines, who presumably gave them ample scrutiny at the time of publication. For a summary, click on the link to Risch's Audio Asylum thread, posted at least twice in this thread, or read MF's article in this month's "Stereophile."
-Bob

[*Scotty*]

The nice thing about playback from vinyl records is that the distortion mechanisms related to tracing the groove are well understood and can be effectively dealt with. I have been minimizing the distortion caused by inaccurate SRA/VTA  due to variations in cartridge design,record thickness and cutting practices by setting my VTA by ear for the last 30 years. This is one time the distortion is audible and measurable and can be minimized by altering the arm height and/or shimming the cartridge body. I am happy that Michael Fremer
bothered to write the article about SRA/VTA. There is insufficient knowledge about the technical side of vinyl records available to the vinyl spinning audiophile and this information is especially timely as there is an ever shrinking number of B&M stores which can setup a TT and tutor the first time vinyl user.
Scotty

[jsaliga]

Distortion charts, graphs and test methodologies are included in the articles by Risch and Maier that have frequently been cited in this thread. I'm not enough of a technologist to evaluate their validity, but I defer to the editors of "Popular Science," "High Fidelity" and "Audio" magazines, who presumably gave them ample scrutiny at the time of publication. For a summary, click on the link to Risch's Audio Asylum thread, posted at least twice in this thread, or read MF's article in this month's "Stereophile."

Perhaps I wasn't very clear.  I have read though every link given in this thread and didn't find what I am looking for.  I want to know if there are actual distortion measurements, what those measurements are, and how they were taken.  I am not interested in someone else's interpretation of whatever data exists.  Did I miss something?

--Jerome

[Wayner]

Wayner, I have a quick question for you. As you are increasing your VTA are you revisiting your cart alignment? The math would say that your overhang would decrease a little. I have been using the Dr Feickert protractor for years and did a check before the vta increase and after. There was a small difference (pretty easy to see with his tool). And I agree regarding your comment that Micheal is only reminding people about this. For years I will following may little tips from the 'phono pdf' by Van den Hul where he also state that most carts will sound better if you raise the vta by 4mm-8mm from parallel. Although he did not get into the 92 degree angle, he is basically speaking about the same thing. 

Steve

Great point, and yes I have. We are now on the hypotenuse of the triangle, as opposed to be parallel with the record surface and distance has been consumed tipping the arm's ass end up. My home made table, ARMod has had a drastic change. I've actually raised the arm 11mm. That's about 7/16 of an inch for you non-metric folks.It's Probably the maximum height the arm can be raised before having permanent interference with the lift mechanism.

It's also my annual spring cleaning, so each table is getting the works, cleaning, lub, adjustments, etc. If a guy or gal is going to do this, you might as well recheck VTF, anti-skating too.

Wayner

[hesson11]

Perhaps I wasn't very clear.  I have read though every link given in this thread and didn't find what I am looking for.  I want to know if there are actual distortion measurements, what those measurements are, and how they were taken.  I am not interested in someone else's interpretation of whatever data exists.  Did I miss something?

--Jerome

You're right, Jerome, your previous post seemed to be asking whether the data exists rather than what, precisely, that data is. As far as I know, the original Risch/Maier articles are not on the Internet (although I admit I haven't gone searching for them). I have a copy of the "Audio" article but no means to scan it (or the time to type it into a post!).

-Bob

[WGH]

Setting the SRA to 92 degrees is a great idea but you will probably need to do a lot more research and a USB microscope if your stylus shape goes beyond a spherical or basic elliptical. I will use the Fritz Gyger S stylus on the Goldring 1042 as an example.

The setup guide included with the cartridge shows the body parallel with the record.



But when the cartridge is installed using the drawing as a reference the stylus definitely is not at 92 degrees.



What is going on here? Looking at the patent it is easy to see that the profile is not in line with the center of the stylus.



Measuring the angle with the free MB Ruler shows an angle of around 111 degrees.



The stylus on the Goldring is mounted a little differently, so until I can accurately view the tip profile my only recourse is to follow the manufacturers recommendations.

More information can be found on Vinyl Engine:
Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents




Wayne



 

[steveblezy]

Wayner, i figured that you would be thoural in the set-up. i was just curious.

WGH, damn, that G1042 was very unique. I have no idea what to say regarding that. the pic is clear. I think unique is the word. How does that cart sound?

SteveFord, I am happy to hear that your best 'measurement' was your ears. It really shows that after all of the  numbers and calculations, that it is all about what you hear in the reproduction.

Steve Blezy

[TheChairGuy]

Guys/Gals,

If reducing tracking distortion is your goal...then the most effective way is to trade up to a longer-than-9" tonearm. 

I think I remember reading for each additional inch you gain ~7% better tracking (up to 12" - at which point there is no additional benefit with 12" LP's).  On piano, the most difficult instrument of all to get right, I clearly and consistently hear the benefits of my 10 and 10.5" arms over standard 9" ones.  For much of the music out there, like pop and other amplified fare (which I listen to in case anyone thinks I'm slagging the genre ) the longer arms don't add any tracking benefit that I can hear.

But with well-recorded piano (I'm a Keith Jarrett, Vladimir Horowitz, George Winston and Vince Guaraldi nut..so I listen to a lot of piano)...the longer arm is simply terrific.

I realize the point of this topic is to minimize the effective tracking distortion of your current 9" arm by optimizing VTA/SRA....but, a 100% effective way of doing so with all the benefits of reducing tracing distortion that comes with it.  In other words, if a 9" and 10" arm are both set up within a gnats whisker of correct VTA, VTF, anti-skate (if applicable) and azimuth....the 10" will always outrack the shorter arm. 

Anyhow, I love the topic and banter here on it...but I thought I'd inject that tidbit into the discussion

Ciao, John

[WGH]

Steve - I like the G1042, it has a wide sound stage and the sound is perfectly balanced for my system. The cartridge works best in a low mass arm and takes more time to set up but when adjusted correctly the background can be as quiet as a CD with the sound on the slightly warm side of neutral. Make sure your arm has height adjustment, the stylus shape requires the body to be parallel with the record. About $324 from Origin Live.

Wayne