[jsaliga]

The machine needs to have all of the necessary and correct adjustments to bring your experience closer and closer to bliss, even if we can never achieve the ultimate goal.  Is it not worth pursuing?

Some people are going to answer no to this question, including myself.  I don't think people are wrong for embracing these ideas and won't tell them they are wasting their time.  But I think it fair to conclude for myself that this is not something I want to spend my time fiddling with.  For me the goal is to obtain sound quality that I am satisfied with.  Anything beyond that is past the point of diminishing returns IMO.  I guess I am no longer a card-carrying member of audiophile perfectionist club.  I'll get over it. 

--Jerome

[jimdgoulding]

Yep, worth pursuing.  It pays to learn and to experiment.

[neobop]

Wayner,
My point is that records are not uniform, not only in thickness, but in the angle of the cutter-head. My criticism of Fremer is that this is offered as set and forget approach, that is the road to vinyl bliss. You saw the follow up post. I beg to differ. I say that it will only work with a limited number of records. I realize that changing VTA/SRA is inconvenient for many. Three of my arms have set screws, and it is inconvenient. Some arms have no provision for adjustment, and shims or spacers have to be used.

My criticism isn't about education, it's about misinformation. And no, I don't adjust my VTA for every record, unless it's called for.

[Ericus Rex]

I think it's worth pursuing and I appreciate you bringing it to our attention, Wayner.

[Ericus Rex]

Neobop, I guess my point is that your 90 degree SRA would be just as incorrect for these different cutting angles as 92 degree SRA.  If 92 degrees sounds better than 90 in some systems and for most records than what is the harm?  I really don't understand your resistance.

[jsaliga]

I really don't understand your resistance.

Conversely...I really don't understand your insistence. 

I think the discussion has gone pretty much as expected.  Some people are going to find information like this very worthwhile and some will not.  Neither camp is likely to persuade the other.  I don't see anything wrong with that.

--Jerome

[Ericus Rex]

Conversely...I really don't understand your insistence. 

I am insisting that the idea is worth discussing.  You're happy with your sound and that truly is great.  But tweaking vinyl can have as great a change to overall sound as speaker placement.  We all should know the options available to us.   

[bunnyma357]

Even if one doesn't want to get a microscope, just the idea that an angle other than perpendicular to the groove may be more optimal is something worth exploring. As I said, this VTA adjustment has had one of the largest changes in sound of any tweeks I've done and I never would have tried it, since I thought 90 degrees was "correct"

Jim C

[jsaliga]

I am insisting that the idea is worth discussing.

Perhaps I missed something, but I don't recall anyone saying it wasn't worth discussing.  Sure, there are some who have said they didn't feel it was worth adopting...but that isn't the same thing.

--Jerome

[neobop]

Neobop, I guess my point is that your 90 degree SRA would be just as incorrect for these different cutting angles as 92 degree SRA.  If 92 degrees sounds better than 90 in some systems and for most records than what is the harm?  I really don't understand your resistance.

I never said anything about a 90 degree SRA. I'll change the SRA every record if necessary. It's about getting the sound right. There is no 1 setting that is right for all Lps. That 92 degree setting that's so great, can be achieved by ear. So can other settings that sound better with other Lps. It's just the way it is with real world records. Your time would be better spent learning how to adjust by ear. Use your microscope and mark the 92 point on your arm pillar if you want, but learning to hear the differences will last you a lifetime. You can do it by listening to the harmonics and correlating what you do with the arm and how it effects the sound. For me, part of the enjoyment of playing a record is having it sound like real instruments. That perfect setting that You'll never forget, will change with numerous records.
neo

[jimdgoulding]

Bop till you drop, Neo.  He's right, he ain't wrong.  Most of my albums are the same depth or very nearly so cause their older pressings.  But, ya can't disagree that there are exceptions. 

[neobop]

Maybe our record collections are very different. What about those exceptions, don't play those records?

Being a member of the set and forget camp, I can understand your endorsement of this approach. My records vary greatly. Sure, sometimes I can listen for hrs and not have to mess with VTA, especially if I'm listening to ones on the same label around the same vintage. But, if I feel like playing one of those "exceptions", the prospect of losing my perfect VTA/SRA is no cause for hesitation.

[steveblezy]

I have been following this thread for some time. All of the variables to achieve this 92 degree on every record means that you will be spending more time dialing in your table than listening to music. Any warp in the record, swash in the platter/bearing and vynle thickness will have an effect. Then there is the actual setting up of the angle. You could use a USB microscope, take a picture and analyse in a good photo application.  But then it would be set perfectly for that record and this particular point in time/rotational position, etc.

What I would suggest is get a micrometer and have it handy. Set your VTA so you are parallel. Listen to a few records. Pull out the micrometer and raise the VTA by 2mm and listen to a few records. Raise it again my 2mm and repeat. Continue a few times until it the sound begins to degrade. Make a few notes as you are doing all of this - sound quality impressions and VTA (from the micrometer. (I simply suggest a micrometer as you will have a hard set of readable numbers) find the 2 best sounding VTA heights and do a comparison between the parallel and those new setting to narrow down your favorite position. Remember, you are looking for an average experience due to different record thicknesses. Then, enjoy the music.

I recall a Van den hul pdf file where many years ago he suggested 4-8 mm tail up. Basically, he was talking about the same thing, he just did not discuss the SRA at 2 degree positive of the perpendicular. His styluses are at 22degree. 4mm up would be an SRA of 91 degree, 8 mm up would be about 92 degree.

At the end of the day, we need to look at the average listening experience due to all of the variables. If we start with a high quality cart, running parallel would have us pretty darn close to that manufactures (easy to obtain information). Apply a little math, common sense and our ears with a repeatable way of measuring and you will get pretty close within 1 1/2 hours.

Steve

[Wayner]

3 of my tables have fixed VTA. 2 are set screw adjustable, but one I can set on the fly. I think for the most part that record thickness is relative to record weight. So most 200 gram LPs are going to be the same thickness. So, saying that there are going to be "all kinds of positions" probably isn't going to be the case. The goal for me is to find an LP, like a 180 gram, and dial the arm in on that one. when I play one thicker, I tweak the arm up a notch, when I play one thinner, I tweak it down a notch. That is 3 positions.

After I finally dial in my SRA to 92 degrees (and I can pretty much confirm it), I will decide if I can hear any difference(s) between my normal position (arm parallel to LP surface) and SRA at 92 degrees. Perhaps I will hear some clues of what the new position reveals and after awhile, will be able to dial the correct SRA in by ear. Perhaps the change is so small or my equipment is so limited or I'm so old, I can't hear any difference.

There is another aspect to SRA and it is stylus contact and what benefit that may have on record wear. If we increase contact area, we are spreading out the VTF which can only be good for our treasured LPs. If we have a smaller contact area, well I think you get the picture.

I guess I'd like to know what "perfect" contact sounds like before I give up on this one.

Wayner

[Ericus Rex]

OK Neobop.  I get where you're coming from.  Thank you for explaining.

I'm certainly not going to invest in a microscope to set my SRA to exactly 92 deg.  I will do it by ear.  But then I'm going to leave it there and accept it as a compromise.  Vinyl tweaking is insane enough already.  I'm not going to reset my setup for every record.  I would rather enjoy the music.  I do appreciate the past research and current retelling (via MF) of this information.  Thank you again Wayner for bringing this article to my attention.

[jimdgoulding]

Maybe our record collections are very different. What about those exceptions, don't play those records?

Being a member of the set and forget camp, I can understand your endorsement of this approach. My records vary greatly. Sure, sometimes I can listen for hrs and not have to mess with VTA, especially if I'm listening to ones on the same label around the same vintage. But, if I feel like playing one of those "exceptions", the prospect of losing my perfect VTA/SRA is no cause for hesitation.

I don't concern myself with losing perfect VTA/SRA, either, so I play them, of course.  I'm not endorsing anything.  I'm the only person I have to please regards.

[macrojack]

Seems like some of us feel that good enough is good enough, and others feel that nothing is good enough - that the boundaries must always be pushed. Obviously these two factions will never be able to agree. However, it is the pushers who are never satisfied who make things better by making new discoveries. The rest of us adopt the attitude of Jim Goulding, that we are the only ones we have to please and therefore we have the right to settle in and enjoy our investment. Again, both are right. We need explorers and we also need settlers. And we need to stop arguing and just quietly honor each other for doing our respective jobs in the grand scheme.
I'm going to pre-order Wayner's automatic thickness sensor and VTA adjustor as soon as I get my next welfare check. You don't take food stamps, do you Wayne?

[hesson11]

Just for the record (and to set some people's minds at ease), in his video Michael says that he sets his VTA for a mid-weight vinyl (I can't recall whether its 150 or 180 gram) and leaves it there.

-Bob

[Wayner]

Because I'm a very curious creature and need to expand my knowledge of vinyl in all aspects, I will pursue  this until I figure it out or can't get there from here. I want to. For 5 out of 6 TTs I have, this is a none issue, 2 of those 5 may be adjusted, and 1 will be the experimental platform.

I spin vinyl for pleasure and enjoyment, but I also have other side adventures to consider. Helping others become at least aware of this is mission accomplished for me. If anyone wants to join in down the path, then welcome aboard, if no-one want's to, that's OK, too.

Tho this is a mechanical tweak, it requires imagination, and tools to get there. I'm not going to buy a $250 scope either, but have found one for much less, and I remembered yesterday that I have a special magnifier/view that I'm going to play with right now and hopefully will post a picture soon.

Wayner 

[Wayner]

The top photo is with the arm parallel to the surface. The cartridge is the AT440MLa, the TT is a Technics SL1200MKII. As I can measure it, the stylus is at 92 degrees right now. That was when my VTA scale was at 4mm.

In the bottom photo, the VTA on the Technics was raised to it's max position, 6mm and I measured a 92.5 degree SRA. It can be done.

 

Now this presents some nice information for me. AT apparently has taken all the worry out for the consumer. When the cartridge VTF is at or about the proper range, and the arm is parallel, the stylus will have a 92 degree SRA. I am suspicious that other manufacturers have done the same thing.

More later.

W