[Ericus Rex]

Maybe this explains why altering the VTF can have a dramatic effect on sound with some cartridges.  Maybe it has less to do with the force itself and more to do with the angle of the stylus in the groove.   A higher VTF would tilt the stylus back a bit. 

[kgturner]

Don't forget to take atmospheric pressure into account. I have a barometer next to my table so that I know what I'm up against when I do my hourly recalibration. Fortunately it's very dry where I live. I have to pity you guys in humid circumstances who fight condensation on a cold diamond.

Sometimes I wonder what the hobby is, tweaking or listening. I guess I run about 50/50. How about you?

that's why i take the ron popeil approach to turntable tweaking. i set it....and forget it!

[macrojack]

that's why i take the ron popeil approach to turntable tweaking. i set it....and forget it!

Ignorance is bliss, I guess. Personally, I can't even imagine how you sleep at night. Surely you can't be unaware of the dangers that lurk and the notes you're missing by taking such a cavalier, hands-off approach. You must be a man of faith!

[analogcorner]

that's why i take the ron popeil approach to turntable tweaking. i set it....and forget it!

The key word in your Ron Popeil quote is SET. Once I SET SRA using a USB microscope I do forget it. Once you hear properly dialed in SRA, particularly when using a severe contact patch stylus (Shibata, Microridge, etc.) you WON'T forget it!

BTW: Ron Popeil's Showtime Rotisserie is fantastic! Everything Ron claims is true....

[kgturner]

thanks for your input in the thread, mr. fremer. i actually just read your article last night.

one day i might give sra adjustmust a whirl via the usb microscope, but it's on the long laundry list of other things i need to do to invest in my vinyl rig. i figure the next investment i need to make is in a decent record cleaning machine as all i do now is run a hunt brush over my records before playing them. then maybe better isolation and speed regulation via a vpi sds. i question whether my little benz micro mc-20e2l and it's elliptical stylus will benefit greatly from fiddling with sra at this point.

kevin t

[Wayner]

Analogcorner,

Yes, I'm a cheap ass. I did find a 500x scope at Amazon for about $100. I am thinking about this one. I still am wondering how I'm going to tell 91 degrees from 92 degrees without some sort of prop. I plotted out a protractor with 1 degree increments, and, buddy, there is no gap on the print till it's about 3/8" away from center point! Perhaps tomorrow I will take the plunge, to see what I can "see" with a USB microscope.

Wayner 

[neobop]

Michael,
VTA/SRA has to be done by ear, it's the only way. If you can't hear the difference, then what's the point? Consider this; old records were cut at 15 degrees, have any real oldies? Gonna whip out your microscope every time you want to play one? It gets worse. During the transition from 15 to 20 degrees, many different angles were used, up to 22 degrees. Now what, gonna limit your listening to audiophile records? How about those UHQRs, super thick no problem? Ever hear some of those DMM pressings compared to a regular '60s pressing? Well I've got news for you Michael, correct SRA/VTA varies, maybe not from record to record, but often. Many are imperfect and not pressed 100% properly in the first place. Harmonic content and top to bottom balance are the only way to set it. If you can't set-up and optimise a cartridge, without those toys, then shame on you. I know you can hear, I've read some of your reviews. Back in the '80s you sometimes got it wrong. But now, what's up with this nonsense?

[rcag_ils]

Mr. Fremer's job is to write articles to increase the sale for Stereophile, that's his profession, and he's indeed very knowledgeable on vinyl record playback.

But come on, using a microscope to adjust the SRA of the stylus? Get real. How far do we want to carry this vinyl obession.

This hobby is supposed to be fun, using a microscope on the stylus seem like a lot of pain to me.

Just use a Geodisc to align the cartridge, eyeball and set the tonearm to be parallel to the record, set the tracking force with a Shure gauge, use a small mirror to adjust the azimuth if you have a SME, and be done with it.


If Mr Fremer keeps up with articles like this, people may all switch to listening to CDs.

[jimdgoulding]

Michael,
VTA/SRA has to be done by ear, it's the only way. If you can't hear the difference, then what's the point? Consider this; old records were cut at 15 degrees, have any real oldies? Gonna whip out your microscope every time you want to play one? It gets worse. During the transition from 15 to 20 degrees, many different angles were used, up to 22 degrees. Now what, gonna limit your listening to audiophile records? How about those UHQRs, super thick no problem? Ever hear some of those DMM pressings compared to a regular '60s pressing? Well I've got news for you Michael, correct SRA/VTA varies, maybe not from record to record, but often. Many are imperfect and not pressed 100% properly in the first place. Harmonic content and top to bottom balance are the only way to set it. If you can't set-up and optimise a cartridge, without those toys, then shame on you. I know you can hear, I've read some of your reviews. Back in the '80s you sometimes got it wrong. But now, what's up with this nonsense?

Which makes me curious about VPI arms that allow you to adjust on the fly.  Unless your stylus tip is all that, I think you can get by happily with one setting for most records.  It continues to be my experience anyway.  And I got there by ear, after all, regards SRA.

[hesson11]

Michael,
VTA/SRA has to be done by ear, it's the only way. If you can't hear the difference, then what's the point? Consider this; old records were cut at 15 degrees, have any real oldies? Gonna whip out your microscope every time you want to play one? It gets worse. During the transition from 15 to 20 degrees, many different angles were used, up to 22 degrees. Now what, gonna limit your listening to audiophile records? How about those UHQRs, super thick no problem? Ever hear some of those DMM pressings compared to a regular '60s pressing? Well I've got news for you Michael, correct SRA/VTA varies, maybe not from record to record, but often. Many are imperfect and not pressed 100% properly in the first place. Harmonic content and top to bottom balance are the only way to set it. If you can't set-up and optimise a cartridge, without those toys, then shame on you. I know you can hear, I've read some of your reviews. Back in the '80s you sometimes got it wrong. But now, what's up with this nonsense?

In Michael's absence, I'd venture to say that you and rcag probably have an incomplete understanding of his attitude on this. Read his articles more closely, watch his video, and you'll understand that nowhere is he adamant about slavish adherence to ultra-precise setup. You obviously missed this in his Stereophile article: "...ultimately you'll have to fine-tune by ear." And this: "IF, like me, you want to TAKE THIS TO THE EXTREME...consider buying a digital USB-based microscope." (Emphasis mine.) In his video he makes the point that varying thicknesses of LPs invite compromise (yes, even Michael compromises!). And he's well aware of the history of VTA. So no, neobop, you don't really "have news" for Michael.

In fact, he's quite practical in his advice. If research has found that a 92˚ SRA yields lower distortion, he's just telling you one way to achieve it—if you want to. He's not holding a gun to anyone's head. Don't blame the messenger for delivering the facts.

-Bob

[jimdgoulding]

I haven't read the article.  Believe I will, tho.  Maybe MF fine tuned to his heart's content listening to you know what, same thing we listen to, his/our albums, THEN looked ultra closely at his SRA and concluded what he concluded.  I think that's worthy of a report myself.  Maybe on more systems than his own?  If nothing else, if it causes you to not take your SRA for granted and you get pro-active about it, you might end up enjoying your albums more than ever, or not.  What the hey? 

[neobop]

Bob,
I haven't read the article and haven't seen the video. Statements like the one below, make me wonder. Maybe the set and forget approach works, if your record collection happens to conform. Mine certainly doesn't. Some arms and aftermarket devices offer VTA on the fly, for a reason. If you want a particular SRA for "modern" records, sure use a microscope. But I say that anything that can be achieve this way is short lived. What's the problem with doing it by ear? The same setting that's recommended can be dialed in by ear, or dialed out when necessary.
Frank

The key word in your Ron Popeil quote is SET. Once I SET SRA using a USB microscope I do forget it. Once you hear properly dialed in SRA, particularly when using a severe contact patch stylus (Shibata, Microridge, etc.) you WON'T forget it!

BTW: Ron Popeil's Showtime Rotisserie is fantastic! Everything Ron claims is true....

[Ericus Rex]

It seems some people have a bone to pick with MF.  Bob has it right about 92deg SRA being a compromise.  Unless Neobop changes his VTA for every record in his collection of varying thickness I'd say his point is moot.  Otherwise he's not fine tuning his VTA for each record, he's compromising.

[jsaliga]

If nothing else, if it causes you to not take your SRA for granted and you get pro-active about it, you might end up enjoying your albums more than ever, or not.  What the hey?

The article might be more helpful to those who aren't enjoying their vinyl as much as they feel they should be, perhaps motivating them to revisit their cartridge alignment.  I am perfectly happy with the sound quality (audiophile blasphemy, to be sure  ) that I obtain from my vinyl rig, and for that reason revisiting my setup is of zero interest to me.

--Jerome

[Napalm]

[...]with articles like this, people may all switch to listening to CDs.

Beware of the dangers. There's a raging debate in the CD circles on which is the best incidence angle of the laser beam to the CD surface. As to read all the pits with proper timing, for enhanced rhythm and pace reproduction.

Nap. 

[rollo]

Mikey earns a living giving audio advice.  I earn a living giving legal advice.  When I give it for free, people usually say thank you, even when they don't agree with it because they know I'm taking time out of my busy day to try to help them. 

Thank you Mikey!  I think most of us in this forum appreciate your input, even if we are (perhaps rightly, perhaps not) cynical and challenging of all advice.

  Agree 100%. Thanks mike for taking the time to help. A bit extreme maybe, but helpfull, the KEY word.


charles

[bunnyma357]

I had never changed VTA, as mine seemed correct - flat bottomed cart & tonearm both appeared level to the disc. After reading this I raised the tonearm a little and heard a great improvement in sound quality. VTA is really easy change on the Pro-Ject arm, just 2 set screws, but it is difficult to make any sort of incremental changes as you just hold the arm at the desired height and then tighten the set screws. After several tries I found what sounds best to me, which has the back of the arm and cart slightly higher than the front - no idea if it is 92 degrees, though.


Jim C

[BobM]

A little trick I learned, for those who don't have an on the fly adjustment and have to deal with set screws.

Get a deck of playing cards, or index cards. Put them under the tonearm lift or some other point that raises and lowers with the arm. Use that to hold the arm in place when tightening the setscrew. You will always be able to get back to a previous spot if you count the number of cards used. Adding or removing a single card is a very small adjustment but sometimes may be audible, so you can easily fine tune the adjustment with a repeatable process and still have a relatively small adjustment range to work within.

Enjoy

[bunnyma357]

A little trick I learned, for those who don't have an on the fly adjustment and have to deal with set screws.

Get a deck of playing cards, or index cards. Put them under the tonearm lift or some other point that raises and lowers with the arm. Use that to hold the arm in place when tightening the setscrew. You will always be able to get back to a previous spot if you count the number of cards used. Adding or removing a single card is a very small adjustment but sometimes may be audible, so you can easily fine tune the adjustment with a repeatable process and still have a relatively small adjustment range to work within.

Enjoy

Excellent tip - thanks.


Jim C

[Wayner]

Analogcorner was merely trying to open some eyes about the absolute fine tuning of their rig. Because of the variance in LP thickness, there maybe more then one setting. Some VPI's have VTA dials on their tone arms and the position is repeatable. So you find the ultra position for 200g, 180g and so on, writing down the absolute values for when you are playing these types of LPs.

Why would you criticize anyone who opened the door to a deeper understanding of the physics of vinyl playback? Don't you at least want to know how to do it? If you compromise here, then why not the hell with setting correct VTF, azimuth, anti-skating? Any spot you mount the cartridge is gonna be good, right?

As long as I'm listening to good vinyl right?

And you people criticize me for washing my LPs in the laundry tub. You have to use a RCM. You have to have digital VTF scale. 4" maple blocks under the deck. Does all of this sound familiar?

Here is a way to get your deck dialed in more accurately then you have ever dream of before and some just scoff at it. I just don't understand it, myself. The turntable is a mechanical machine. It can turn little squiggly grooves into sounds that can take you over, emotionally. The machine needs to have all of the necessary and correct adjustments to bring your experience closer and closer to bliss, even if we can never achieve the ultimate goal. Is it not worth pursuing?

Wayner