[rcag_ils]

Last night I photographed my Grado Gold Longhorn mounted to my Sony PS-X5 and the SRA measures 92 degrees. This table has no adjustable VTA, so I lucked out, ON thicker LPs, It will be off, but it makes me think that manufacturers may be building this into their cartridges.

I see it, I see it.....this morning I randomly picked a LP, put it on the platter, with a maglight in hand, I carefully shine it from the back of the stylus while it's in the groove of the first track of the LP, with my other hand holding a 10X loupe, I could clearly see the tip of the stylus, I repeat, very clear. I drew a 90 degree imaginary straight line from the tip of the stylus to the top of the shank, and I could see the stylus did tilt a little forward away from the tonearm pivot. The cartridge is a Grado Black, and the top of the cartridge is parallel with the record surface.

I have no idea exactly how many degrees the stylus tilts, I am guessing it's between 1-3 degrees, not 5 degrees for sure, (I trust my eyeballing), I guess I should leave it alone. I have more turntables to check, but it'll be on a later day.


PS, hold the maglight tightly, you do not want to drop it on the record.

[Wayner]

Use a crappy old record when you do this stuff.

W

[rcag_ils]

even that....when the maglight hits the old crappy record, the shock would be transmitted through the platter, the force would be equal to an earthquick, just not a good thing.

[jimdgoulding]

I see it, I see it.....this morning I randomly picked a LP, put it on the platter, with a maglight in hand, I carefully shine it from the back of the stylus while it's in the groove of the first track of the LP, with my other hand holding a 10X loupe, I could clearly see the tip of the stylus, I repeat, very clear. I drew a 90 degree imaginary straight line from the tip of the stylus to the top of the shank, and I could see the stylus did tilt a little forward away from the tonearm pivot. The cartridge is a Grado Black, and the top of the cartridge is parallel with the record surface.

I have no idea exactly how many degrees the stylus tilts, I am guessing it's between 1-3 degrees, not 5 degrees for sure, (I trust my eyeballing), I guess I should leave it alone. I have more turntables to check, but it'll be on a later day.


PS, hold the maglight tightly, you do not want to drop it on the record.

Mine, too.  Couldn't be more than two degrees.  Grado Sonata.

BTW, Bop, your quote from Miles in your signature reminded of something Chico Hamilton said in a documentary about Nica de Koenigswarter.  He said Monk's bassist told him about Monk, "I've played with cats who play all the white keys and I've played with cats who play all the black keys, but I ain't never played with a motherf_____ who played inbetween the cracks!"

I believe both are original pressings, BTW.

[hesson11]

Yes. So are all the micros. Finelines and linetrace are extended contact, but not as much as a micros.

Most of this stuff actually comes from 1981. If you're really interested.....

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/1240.html

http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=25794&highlight=degrees

That Audio Asylum article is the same one I linked to on page one of this thread, but I neglected to note that you need to be sure to read the followups to it, in which Mr. Risch corrects an error he made in his main post (he originally said the stylus should be one degree off vertical then corrected it to two degrees, i.e., 92 degrees).

-Bob

[jimdgoulding]

Bob, that's confusing to me.  How does 2 degrees equal 92 degrees and not 98?

[Ericus Rex]

This is taken from the linked article above:

"The range of modern VTA is approx. 24 degrees to 18 degrees, with most cutter heads being adjusted to around 22 degrees."

Can someone explain what Risch means by this and how it relates to 92 deg SRA?  If the cutting angle was usually 22 degrees why aren't we setting SRA to 68 deg (90-22 deg - I know this isn't possible, think hypothetically)?  What am I missing? 

[jimdgoulding]

Good stuff    To illustrate my point, if you have the OJC reissue versions of these records, you probably wouldn't have to mess with your VTA/SRA between records for them to sound right. If on the other hand, one was the orig pressing, you might. When you go further back, like the '50s or earlier, you can almost count on there being arm height differences to optimise play.

Tweeter surrounds? Are these connected to the diaphragm, or more like waveguides?
Cheers, neo

They lay on the baffle.  They are like waveguides only to the extent there would be a -2db or so reduction off axis above the crossover.

[Wayner]

Lots of people think that the VTA is the angle of the cantilever to the record surface. They would be wrong. That measurement is actually from the contact area of the stylus to the area of pivot on the cantilever. It's a geometrical vector. And it is for all practical purposes, immeasurable, but part of the cartridge design (immeasurable for us lay-men).

The 92 degrees is an inclusive angle from record surface to a line drawn thru the maximum contact area of stylus to groove. Usually it is the centerline of the stylus. That means the bottom of the stylus leans in 2 degrees from plumb, from the record surface (see my first entry).

Wayner

[Wayner]

New problem. ARMod's stylus is straight up and down.

 

I don't really have 8 mm of room to raise the arm, so should I raise the arm 4mm and tip the cartrigde the other 4?

This is the problem with TTs that don't have adjustable VTA. Also if someone has a Rega P3, can you measure from the top of the plinth to the top of the glass platter (not including the mat) and tell me what that measurement is?

Wayenr

[hesson11]

Bob, that's confusing to me.  How does 2 degrees equal 92 degrees and not 98?

As he states it, he's saying the angle should be 2 degrees from vertical. Vertical is 90 degrees. So two degrees from that is 92 degrees.
-Bob

[Wayner]

Here is something I just thought of. People talk about "cartridge break-in". What could be happening is that they have not set their SRA correctly, but as we all know, the stylus does wear out, so sooner or later, it will be at the correct SRA due to wear.

Message of this is that sooner or later, you will achive correct SRA, either by proper placement, or stylus wear!

Wayner 

[hesson11]

Could be, Wayne. In his article Michael also states that VTA will change during break-in because of changes in the cantilever's suspension.

-Bob

[neobop]

Here is something I just thought of. People talk about "cartridge break-in". What could be happening is that they have not set their SRA correctly, but as we all know, the stylus does wear out, so sooner or later, it will be at the correct SRA due to wear.

Message of this is that sooner or later, you will achive correct SRA, either by proper placement, or stylus wear!

Wayner 

That makes no sense whatsoever.
neo

[jimdgoulding]

As he states it, he's saying the angle should be 2 degrees from vertical. Vertical is 90 degrees. So two degrees from that is 92 degrees.
-Bob

Makes sense now.  Verticle is 90 degrees.  I knew that!  Boy, I must be gettin on a slippery slope.  The fact that the cantilever suspension may relax after awhile only means that we should make final adjustments to our SRA after a period of time.  In use, tracking force may bring this about.  Nothing wrong with another looksy at the very least.

Since this discussion began, I've looked closely and listened a lot and am reassured.  Still pursuing getting some new set screws.  Then I'll look and listen some more.  Got a belt drive Micro Seiki BL-91 with a redwood base and a Premier high mass arm with a Koetsu Black in storage.  Gonna dust it off, too.  Don't think my current phono pre will step it up enough, tho, but I can see.  Used to use it with a Counterpoint full preamp and a Marcof battery powered step up transformer ($125.00!).  What I got now is a line stage only.  Thanks, Wayner, Neobopdaddy, all.

[Wayner]

John, from Grado Labs recommends a 2 degree forward tip of the Grado cartridges, but also suggests that the user listen to be the ultimate judge. That sounds like good advice to me.

Have a nice Memorial weekend to all of us USA memebers.

Wayner

[doctorno]

For Shame!!
Michael Fremer visits this site and our members treat him so?

I am amazed at how mean people can be on this site.

Finally a person of merit visits this site and we use it to blast him.

Sitting behind a keyboard is truly alot like beer muscles for many people here.
We should all be a little embarrassed :oops


Karl

[jimdgoulding]

John, from Grado Labs recommends a 2 degree forward tip of the Grado cartridges, but also suggests that the user listen to be the ultimate judge. That sounds like good advice to me.

Have a nice Memorial weekend to all of us USA memebers.

Wayner

A round of thanks, Wayner, on behalf of Grado users of which I am one.  Also, I'm sure Mr. Fremer has pretty thick skin and only took offense once.  You ought to see what reviewers put up with on Audio Asylum. 

 

[rcag_ils]

I don't think that we are mean to Mr. Fremer, at least I am not, I have a lot of respects for him, I read some of his articles but not all, and I think he's very knowledgeable in his field.

I think it's the other way around. Mr. Fremer works for Stereophile, nothing's wrong with that at all.  However, Stereophile tends to put themselves in a different class, with the "hell with the average audiophile" attitude.  Reviewing and recommending equipment that are way out of reach by the common people with an average income. You know, in every issue, Stereophile recommends this $10,000 whatever, I mean, how many of you went out and picked up a pair of $2500 patch cable last month? Occasionally, Stereophile may review a pair of speakers that cost $1099.00 so they can say, oh, we like affordable stuff too.

Mr. Fremer just happens to carry that Stereophile label with him,  and got the "who do you think you are" treatment, that's all.

And also there's Art Dudley, refoamed the woofers in a pair of vintage Advent speakers with the wrong surrounds, and he's another Stereophile expert, too. You know, maybe they are only good for ultra expensive type audio equipment, I am sure that they can razzle dazzle you with the $25,000 mono block amp. 

[jimdgoulding]

I don't think that we are mean to Mr. Fremer, at least I am not, I have a lot of respects for him, I read some of his articles but not all, and I think he's very knowledgeable in his field.

I think it's the other way around. Mr. Fremer works for Stereophile, nothing's wrong with that at all.  However, Stereophile tends to put themselves in a difference class, with the "hell with the average audiophile" attitude.  Reviewing and recommending equipment that are way out of reach by the common people with an average income. You know, in every issue, Stereophile recommends this $10,000 whatever, I mean, how many of you went out and picked up a pair of $2500 patch cable last month? Occasionally, Stereophile may review a pair of speakers that cost $1099.00 so they can say, oh, we like affordable stuff too.

Mr. Fremer just happens to carry that Stereophile label with him,  and got the "who do you think you are" treatment, that's all.

And also there's Art Dudley, refoamed the woofers in a pair of vintage Advent speakers with the wrong surrounds, and he's another Stereophile expert, too. You know, maybe they are only good for ultra expensive type audio equipment, I am sure that they can razzle dazzle you with the $25,000 mono block amp.

Mr. Fremer has his own column.  I don't think he is a typical staff writer.  But I feel ya bout the state of magazines.  I think they derive their income from advertisers more than subscribers and the more successful a manufacturer is, the larger their commitment to advertising.  On the other hand, they'll never please everybody, so. .  That isn't being cynical, it makes too much sense.