[Wayner]

Now more fun. I've discovered that 100 gram LP measures about 1.27mm (.05"), 150g is 1.52mm (.06"), 180 gram is 1.77mm (.07") and 200 grams are 2.00mm (.08"). So, .01 difference in gram weight means .25mm difference.

So with my VTA scale at 4 mm (baseline), if I play a 100 gram record, I leave the VTA where it is. 150 gram, I move it up .25mm, 180 gram I move it up .5mm, 200 gram .75mm.

Easy as pi.

My job is done.

Wayner 

[jimdgoulding]

Wayner, you doin that with your arms with set screws, too?  Or, just the one you can literally dial it in.  BTW, I'm ordering new set screws cause the heads of mine are about stripped.  Then I think I will try the deck of cards thing to be able to micro find the best setting along with my ears. 

[Wayner]

I'm listening right now, and liking what I hear....big, huge sound stage and I think I'm hearing some very nice stuff I never really heard (or paid attention?) too. After a few days of this I will tackle the VPI and Empire.

The non-adjustables may be brought into a compromise position by thinner/thicker mats or shims, etc..

Wayner 

[Delacroix]

Wayner

I've just got to say - I love this thread and I am delighted to read your findings and to note your obvious passion for exploring this issue in an ongoing, open-minded fashion. THIS is what the AC is all about and I suspect only part of my admiration springs from the recognition of a fellow fanatic..LOL!!!

Best

[BobRex]

Wayne,

It looks like you are beginning to appreciate the true value of proper VTA/SRA.  Enjoy!

Mikey's stance (don't go crazy with this stuff) has always confused me.  He has a table that is designed to maximize the performance of LP playback, and at least one arm that simplifies the VTA/SRA procedure (Phantom with micropoise).  Since he can adjust SRA with the twist of a single knob, and can measure the position of the arm when properly adjusted, and therefore have repeatability, why give up that additional performance?   It doesn't make sense.

[Wayner]

If I didn't have this makrolux viewer made by Eschenbach, I couldn't have taken the photos, so it's not like everyone can do this, unless they have the tools, just can't be done. Now this viewer I have was my ma's and I think it was kind of expensive. It's got a big lens on it and I focused on the stylus, then tooked a zoomed photo with my cheap Canon A520 digital camera. If I knew how to run the camera (other then auto mode, heh, heh) I think a guy could do it with just a camera. I wish someone else who has and knows how to do some nice zoom shoots would do what I did.

Get the camera on a nice steady tripod, zoom in and take a few photos. Stick it into your computer and print out a copy. Use your eyeballs to determine where you think the centerline of the stylus is and draw a line thru it and measure the angle to a relative surface, like the record surface.

I may have forgot that part. My stylus in the photos is in the groove.

Wayner 

[hesson11]

I doff my cap, Wayne, you intrepid warrior!

-Bob

[jimdgoulding]

One old way to get a better visual of your SRA is to lay a mirror on your platter (if you can find one the thickness of an average lp) and drop your stylus tip onto it.  The reflection would in effect double the length of your stylus making it more easy to see the relationship (however you may like or want it after experimenting or what you've read here) at contact.  Still, you'll need a magnifying glass but you may have one around the house that will do.  I mean if you don't want to be changing the height of your tone arm to replicate the cutting angle of the master cutter (?) or are concerned about various record thicknesses, that is. 

[Ericus Rex]

The non-adjustables may be brought into a compromise position by thinner/thicker mats...

Now we're talking!

[neobop]

I'm listening right now, and liking what I hear....big, huge sound stage and I think I'm hearing some very nice stuff I never really heard (or paid attention?) too. After a few days of this I will tackle the VPI and Empire.

The non-adjustables may be brought into a compromise position by thinner/thicker mats or shims, etc..

Wayner 

Wayner,
I assume you're using your SL-1200 to arrive at this setting. Since it has a calibrated height control, I'm curious if you've ever had this cartridge at this height before? If so, does it sound better now than it did previously? 
neo

[Napalm]

[...] If so, does it sound better now than it did previously? 
neo

Ah, a blind AB test..... or maybe measurements with a test disc?

Nap. 

[jimdgoulding]

Nap, you ok I don't care what anybody says.  Even if you are a philistine.

[Wayner]

Wayner,
I assume you're using your SL-1200 to arrive at this setting. Since it has a calibrated height control, I'm curious if you've ever had this cartridge at this height before? If so, does it sound better now than it did previously? 
neo

Actually I have not ever had it at this level. I recently made a new parallel gauge to set tone arms so they are parallel to the record surface. I was using a home-made feeler gauge. I haven't checked the Technics for some time as my everyday table is my home made "ARMod". After these last few days, I started to use the Technics to play with the VTA and using my jig, discovered I was too low and arm was not parallel. I think my old number was 1mm so now I'm at 4.

Yes, that is part of my plan to go back to 1mm height an compare it to the new 4mm setting. The record I used for evaluation is one I'm very familiar with and my initial impressions were that the sound stage was bigger. I thought that the second I heard it at the new position.

But to be honest, even to my self, I have to prove, to myself that I can hear a difference. However, as I have said before, there maybe other side benefits to the 92 degree SRA, and that may very well be record wear. It just makes sense to me, as the stylus to record groove contact area has improved.

Wayner

[rcag_ils]

I think it's a bunch of crap. First the two fuzzy pictures look the same to me, I think the bottom picture is 93.267 degree, and it's not 92.5.

Then every time we put on a different record, we have to mess with the vta set screw until it's all stripped out, or wait... we can measure the thickness of the records...all 655 of them... and risking scratching them....and wait....we can stock a bunch of record mats with different thickness and switching them out every time we play a different record.

Wow I can hear the difference too, every time I sneeze on the record....what a bunch of crap.

[rcag_ils]

OK, I realize calling it "a bunch of crap" maybe a bit harsh for this discussion. I am not disputing the merit of the SRA. What I am disputing is the practicality of the adjustment. Who's to say the exact 92 degree of the stylus can be precisely measured without being in the lab environment, or should we even make such attempt risking damaging equipment or your prize vinyl record.

[vinyl_guy]

Wayner,

Thank you for starting this thread and for your persistance and willingness to experiment and share your findings. I have learned a lot from following the thread. For me, the thread has helped bring more clarity to what Mikey wrote in Stereophile and a greater understanding of VTA, SRA, VTF and their relationship. I also appreciate Mikey taking the time to post in this thread and helping to advance the "science" of vinyl playback which ultimately leads to greater enjoyment. I wish I had the 20/15 eyesight I had in my 20s & 30s instead of my progressive trifocal lenses--it would make seeing the angles a lot easier I plan to do some experimenting with my VTA and listening to the results. I'm not obsessive enough to worry about resetting it for every record, so I will find a compromise VTA/SRA that seems to work for most of my collection.

Thanks again to everyone who have posted constructive comments. It's threads like this one and the ACers I have met that make AC my favorite audio forum.

Happy Listening,

Laura

[Napalm]

Nap, you ok I don't care what anybody says.  Even if you are a philistine.

Just trying to remind you that while we can easily alter sound in our systems, it's not a simple task to decide if we did it for the better.

I can easily change sound character by moving the speakers around the room. How can I tell which is the best position? I definitely can't AB unless I buy a second pair of speakers. So this leaves me with measurements.

Otherwise I can go for a subjective impression that "they sound just right here". Should I publish my results in a magazine?

Nap. 

[analogcorner]

He just wanted to prove once again that The Audio Critic got it right many years ago:

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_issues/The_Audio_Critic_24_r.pdf

page 14 (PDF 15).

YA BABY! Being dissed by Peter Aczel is a highlight of my audiophile life. This is a guy who positively reviewed his own loudspeaker without telling readers it was his loudspeakers. That's why he's out of the audio business. He's a fraud.

Interestingly, he's also involved in the dog world. My wife shows dogs. Apparently, Aczel is held in as high a regard in the dog world as he's held in the audio world. He shows Bull Mastiffs and looks like one.

Anyone who considers E. Brad Meyer a "hero" in the audio world is demented.

But whatever....the same issue contains Tom Nouissaine's obit for vinyl. He's another loser. All of Aczel's "heroes" are the people who have done the most to kill good audio and replace it with Velveeta audio based upon their abuse not use of scientific method..

Have a great day! I'd forgotten about Aczel's attack..thanks for reminding me. I'll have a great day!

[analogcorner]

I think it's a bunch of crap. First the two fuzzy pictures look the same to me, I think the bottom picture is 93.267 degree, and it's not 92.5.

Then every time we put on a different record, we have to mess with the vta set screw until it's all stripped out, or wait... we can measure the thickness of the records...all 655 of them... and risking scratching them....and wait....we can stock a bunch of record mats with different thickness and switching them out every time we play a different record.

Wow I can hear the difference too, every time I sneeze on the record....what a bunch of crap.

What a bunch of crap indeed. The software measures the angle. It's not a guesstimate. What IS a "bunch of crap" is the notion that you have to change the SRA for every thickness record. No one suggested that...oh except you, to dismiss the entire discussion. Good going!

In order to change SRA 1 degree on a typical 9" arm, you'd have to move the rear of the arm by a full 4mm. Therefore, once you set SRA to 92 degrees with an average thickness record, you don't have to mess with it.

But if you are using a Shibata or other hyper contact stylus and you're not at 92 degrees or close there is empirical evidence showing that you're greatly increasing distortion. The research has been done.

I find it interesting that the supposed "rational types" who claim to rely on measurements, are in denial when the evidence comes from an "observational reviewer" like me.

so if you wish to hear a bunch of crap, then by all means call this discussion one!

I'm sure you can hear difference every time you sneeze, especially if you loogie all over your records. But hey! who cares! It's all a "bunch of crap."

[sts9fan]

Building bridges to the vinyl world.