[hesson11]

I recently made a new parallel gauge to set tone arms so they are parallel to the record surface.
Wayner

Here's my own home-made Tonearm Parallelerizer. Sorry I'm the world's worst photographer (I won't blame in on my camera). It's just a transparent ruler with grid lines on it, available at most office- or art-supply stores. I've just taped a piece of white paper on the back along with supports cut from index cards. You just place your tonearm on an old record and put  the Tonearm Parallelerizer behind the tonearm. View it from the side, and you can easily tell when the tonearm is parallel to the record. You can leave the arm set there, as recommended by most manufacturers, or just use it as a starting point for fine-tuning.
-Bob

[Napalm]

I find it interesting that the supposed "rational types" who claim to rely on measurements, are in denial when the evidence comes from an "observational reviewer" like me.

Cover your speedometer with black tape. Three tickets later you'll understand the difference between subjective assessments and objective measurements.

Nap.

[Wayner]

My goal was to attempt to position my stylus at 92 degrees as suggested in the Stereophile article. I did it with the tools I had, and the knowledge I have with measurement. I've been engineering products for 35+ years and I know a few tricks.

rcag_ils, funny humor with the 93.267 degrees. The 2 views are real, and they measure as closely as I possibly can to what I stated. Where are your photos?

analogcorner, once a baseline position is achived at 92 degrees, varing thickness in LPs can be compensated for (if desired) by simple adjustment (if your table has the ability), to keep the SRA at 92 degrees. I can tell if I have a 200 gram record in my hand, and from the baseline I established, it only takes .75mm to compensate for the added thickness of my baseline. I can easily dial in 4 different thicknesses of records within seconds. Others may,as you have suggested, find a compromise position and keep it there.

As I stated earlier, the next few days, I will try and evaluate the new SRA settings. If some of you think I'm full of shit, so be it, if others want to make fun of my measurement methods, I don't care. If you think I need a $250 USB mic to see the stylus, you are wrong. If you think that some even more spendy software is needed, well, that's another issue altogether. I have some software built in, it's called ears.

If I'm going to be subjective, I need to duplicate the intent, which I believe with the associated equipment that I have, am very, very close. Next, I need to evaluate the new position, with my own personal software, and finally decide in the end, if all, part or any of this was worth the effort, to improve my own LP enjoyment.

I really find it interesting how a few of you think this thread is a "bunch of crap", but continue to contribute to it. Perhaps that in itself is a Freudian slip, no?

Wayner

[Wayner]

hesson11, I like your gauge!

W

[Ericus Rex]

That's a great gauge!  A slight conversion would make it very simple to use to get close to 92 deg.  Afix a MM ruler vertically at the far right edge (at arm's pivot).  Get the arm to exactly parallel with stylus in groove.  Take a look at height of ruler in MMs.  Then assuming your stylus is 90 deg SRA at parallel all you'd have to due is jack up the tail to 8mm above the parallel reading and VOILA! You're close enough!  I'm making one this weekend!

Here's my own home-made Tonearm Parallelerizer. Sorry I'm the world's worst photographer (I won't blame in on my camera). It's just a transparent ruler with grid lines on it, available at most office- or art-supply stores. I've just taped a piece of white paper on the back along with supports cut from index cards. You just place your tonearm on an old record and put  the Tonearm Parallelerizer behind the tonearm. View it from the side, and you can easily tell when the tonearm is parallel to the record. You can leave the arm set there, as recommended by most manufacturers, or just use it as a starting point for fine-tuning.
-Bob

[rcag_ils]

As I stated, using the term "a bunch of crap" might have been a bit harsh.

I find it interesting that the supposed "rational types" who claim to rely on measurements, are in denial when the evidence comes from an "observational reviewer" like me.

Ones can only describe an adjustment procedure in words to a point. In the article, I see no pictures that demonstrate the software based SRA measuring device in action, I don't even see a picture of the record cutting head that shows the cutting angle, for crying out loud, all I see is a magnafied  picture of a stylus that says this is not quite 92 degree....REALLY? Then it says "keep in mind that ultimately, you'll have to fine-tune by ear, NO KIDDING.

We rely on measurements, especially from the manufacturers, when they say the tracking force should be 1.5g, we put it there; when they says adjust the tonearm in parallel with the record surface, we do that too. When they say the anti-skate force should be equal to the tracking force, well, I got my Nautilus test record out, put the tonearm down and adjust it until the tonearm doesn't slide in either directions.

Now is SRA with the software based measuring device....well, I'll listen.....wait, there's more (not you analogcorner), how about different thickness of records and mats? Give me a break. We are, well, (I can only speak for myself), I am rational.

[Wayner]

OK. I'm rational too. That is why I'm approaching this with an open mind. I'm trying to do the measurements the best I can with what I have, and I think I'm really close.

A little while ago, I decided to try record some music on my new Tascam CD recorder, same song on 2 extremes of VTA.

I was at 4.5mm with a 180gram record and I really wanted to do a full swing of the range I have, so I used another 2mm thick mat and raised my VTA up another 2mm. That put me at 6.5mm, as far as she would go. The arm and SRA should be as it was when I was at 4.5 without the added mat. I made a recording of the song. Then I swung the VTA down to 0, actually about -.5mm. A little explanation is required here. The Technics VTA scale goes from o to 6 mm, but actually can go about .5mm beyond the scales so I have basically a 7mm swing in VTA. That should change my SRA by about 1.75 degrees. I recorded same song again.

I have no one here to help me do an AB test, so I just listened over and over to each song, parts of the song for about 1/2 hour. Here is the unscientific observation. Position 1 was more engaging with a more defined space. Bass didn't really change between the 2, but I did notice that a couple of "pops" sounded different between the 2. I also noticed a "SSSS" sound on position 2 on vocals as a "th" sound was made. The word was "the" and the th part of it had an "SSSS" sound to it that position 1 did not. If I were to do a blind AB test (tonight), I would listen for these 2 sounds.

I just thought position 1 was more engaging, better reverb in the recording, fuller.

Wayner

[tull skull]

Here's my own home-made Tonearm Parallelerizer. Sorry I'm the world's worst photographer (I won't blame in on my camera). It's just a transparent ruler with grid lines on it, available at most office- or art-supply stores. I've just taped a piece of white paper on the back along with supports cut from index cards. You just place your tonearm on an old record and put  the Tonearm Parallelerizer behind the tonearm. View it from the side, and you can easily tell when the tonearm is parallel to the record. You can leave the arm set there, as recommended by most manufacturers, or just use it as a starting point for fine-tuning.
-Bob

Hession, please tell us you cryo'ed those index cards!!!

[Wayner]

Forget the CD I burned earlier today.  I have a new computer that is used in the process, and listening to the Technics right now is proving that the CD version sucks, big time. We have some serious analog resolution tonight. Play list includes the Cars, Candy-O (NOS) recently opened and Thomas Dolby, Astronauts and Heretics. It's pretty awesome.

Wayner 

[neobop]

What a bunch of crap indeed. The software measures the angle. It's not a guesstimate. What IS a "bunch of crap" is the notion that you have to change the SRA for every thickness record. No one suggested that...oh except you, to dismiss the entire discussion. Good going!

In order to change SRA 1 degree on a typical 9" arm, you'd have to move the rear of the arm by a full 4mm. Therefore, once you set SRA to 92 degrees with an average thickness record, you don't have to mess with it.

But if you are using a Shibata or other hyper contact stylus and you're not at 92 degrees or close there is empirical evidence showing that you're greatly increasing distortion. The research has been done.

I find it interesting that the supposed "rational types" who claim to rely on measurements, are in denial when the evidence comes from an "observational reviewer" like me.

so if you wish to hear a bunch of crap, then by all means call this discussion one!

I'm sure you can hear difference every time you sneeze, especially if you loogie all over your records. But hey! who cares! It's all a "bunch of crap."

Hello,
I'd think you'd be used to such remarks by now. Maybe you could use a little skin thickener? I noticed that you responded about records of different thickness. Wayner seems to have that covered pretty well. What about those cut at different angles? Depending on your collection, this can be commonplace. During the heyday of vinyl many batches of regular records were pressed in a hurry, and seem to differ in VTA/SRA requirements. This doesn't make much sense unless the cutterheads were not adjusted properly and the stampers were off. Never the less it seems that way with many older records and sometimes different labels also have different requirements.

Many cartridge manufacturers recommend making the cartridge body parallel with the record surface. It seems that 92 degrees puts the tail up on these same cartridges? They're wrong, even though tracking angle is often specified? Many cartridges will sound too bright with the tail up. I'd think that harmonic distortion would increase.

I've had thousands of records over the years. Arm height requirements seem to vary widely. My reaction to your posts is based on years of experience. I don't think all this is a bunch of crap, but it goes against what I think. One SRA fits all? I think not.

[rcag_ils]

I think the best way to verify this SRA debate is to have analogcorner contact several reputable high end cartridge/stylus manufacturers, and the 180g/200g high end vinyl records manufacturing companies, (the experts in the field), and get their takes on this.

With analogcorner's reputation, I think this can easily be accomandated. We may soon find label on the phono cartridge box, or the cover of MFSL records says, "92 degree READY".

[jimdgoulding]

Do MFSL records actually say that, or are you being hypothetical?  Seriously, thanks.  I am curious for the sake of this discussion.  I only have one, that I can recall, myself.

[rcag_ils]

Just trying to be sarcastic, remember in the early days of CDs, some speakers manufacturers put the label that said "digital ready" on their speakers?

[bunnyma357]

My Ortofon has a Fritz Gyger FGII stylus, would that be considered a hyper contact stylus?

Jim C

[neobop]

My Ortofon has a Fritz Gyger FGII stylus, would that be considered a hyper contact stylus?

Jim C

Yes. So are all the micros. Finelines and linetrace are extended contact, but not as much as a micros.

Most of this stuff actually comes from 1981. If you're really interested.....

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/1240.html

http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=25794&highlight=degrees

[jimdgoulding]

Nice post, Bop.  John Risch is good reading.

[rcag_ils]

John Risch explained this in a clear manner, so I am more convinced, and I'd never denied the importance of SRA.

However, all the cartridges I bought in the past, instruction manuals say the top of the cartridge body should be parallel with the record surface, I am guessing the SRA has already been built into the cartridge stylus tip. I'd better check with a backlight.

[jimdgoulding]

Yes. So are all the micros. Finelines and linetrace are extended contact, but not as much as a micros.

Most of this stuff actually comes from 1981. If you're really interested.....

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/1240.html

http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=25794&highlight=degrees

With a moniker like yours, Neo, you might be interested to hear what I'm hearin and feelin right now . . "You did it, you did it" by Roland Kirk from We Free Kings.  On vinyl, most assuredly.  Best, old chap.

(later) Checkmate- Shelly Manne and His Men (Contemporary).  Nuthin but soulful playin you can feel by the note from Richie Kamuka (tenor sax) and Russ Freeman (piano), et al.  If it ain't about feelin . .

[neobop]

With a moniker like yours, Neo, you might be interested to hear what I'm hearin and feelin right now . . "You did it, you did it" by Roland Kirk from We Free Kings.  On vinyl, most assuredly.  Best, old chap.

(later) Checkmate- Shelly Manne and His Men (Contemporary).  Nuthin but soulful playin you can feel by the note from Richie Kamuka (tenor sax) and Russ Freeman (piano), et al.  If it ain't about feelin . .

Good stuff    To illustrate my point, if you have the OJC reissue versions of these records, you probably wouldn't have to mess with your VTA/SRA between records for them to sound right. If on the other hand, one was the orig pressing, you might. When you go further back, like the '50s or earlier, you can almost count on there being arm height differences to optimise play.

Tweeter surrounds? Are these connected to the diaphragm, or more like waveguides?
Cheers, neo

[Wayner]

John Risch explained this in a clear manner, so I am more convinced, and I'd never denied the importance of SRA.

However, all the cartridges I bought in the past, instruction manuals say the top of the cartridge body should be parallel with the record surface, I am guessing the SRA has already been built into the cartridge stylus tip. I'd better check with a backlight.

I'm glad you said that. Last night I photographed my Grado Gold Longhorn mounted to my Sony PS-X5 and the SRA measures 92 degrees. This table has no adjustable VTA, so I lucked out, ON thicker LPs, It will be off, but it makes me think that manufacturers may be building this into their cartridges. The Sony's arm is parallel to the record surface as well. That's 2 out 2 so far.

Waynererer