[jimdgoulding]

Just when I started to believe in them, the Giants go ahead and lose (yet again) to the Eagles at the Meadowlands.  This was a complete failure by the team and a very disappointing home loss.  The Giants pretty much couldn't do anything on either side of the ball and frankly, looked over-matched. 

Not only does this breath a little bit of life into the Eagles, it puts a serious hurting on the Giants playoff chances.  Not only does the loss put the Giants into a tie for first place with Dallas, it gives them another division and conference loss.  With upcoming conference games against New Orleans and Green Bay, it turns the two games against Dallas into must wins.

George

Looks to me like Dallas is the favorite to win the NFC East.  Very lame to see the Giants lose to Philadelphia.  I can only imagine what it felt like to the local fans.

I'm just now hearing about Cutler and the Bears.  That sucks large tho I'm sure it is comforting to GB fans.

Get to see Matt Leinert drive the Texans next week.  Hope we Texans' fans like what we see.

[Freo-1]

Well, the Lions pulled one out, and managed to get themselves back in the hunt.  This should make Thursday's game all the better.  Now that Cultler is out for 6-8 weeks, looks like the Bears are in trouble. 

BTW, you guys who complain about the Lions are off the mark.  They are tough, aggressive, young, and learning how to win.  They are no dirtier than the Ravens, Steelers, Bears, or Raiders.  When Peppers drove Stafford into the ground the first game last season (after Stafford threw the ball), no on cried foul over that.  His sholduer was seperated on that hit.

EDIT: What Suh did on Thanksgiving was just dumb, and plays into the stereotype.  He needs to "grow up", and learn to control his temper.   The vets will do dirty stuff, and he has to learn to respond better then he does now.

[jimdgoulding]

Ravens vs 49's on turkey day was an out-freakin-standing game.  Probably hurt a lot if you were pulling for the 49's.  I had no dog in the hunt so I just enjoyed it immensely.  I will say that the Ravens played well enough to have beaten Green Bay (except for that embarrassing quarterback draw play).  I mean that defense was positively flying in there!  They were pumped!  Flacco had a great game.  If they can keep it up, , they will wreck a lot of offenses.  Monumental day for the Ravens defense.

[jackman]

Hey Jim,
I agree, the games were entertaining yesterday.  The Packers are the cream of this year's crop and it looks like they will continue to be a favorite to go the the Superbowl and probably win.  Several teams have played well enough to beat the Pack this year...against other teams!  When they play the Packers, Rogers, this year's MVP so far, finds a way to win.  They also seem to be getting more focused and playing better.  Not good for the other teams in the league but injuries have a way of leveling the playing field and bringing teams back to earth.  Injuries may be the only thing that can stop the Pack this year.

Lastly, anyone watch the Detroit/Green Bay game and STILL think Detroit is not a dirty team?  Suh is a good player but he completely lost control of his temper and cost his team a shot at winning a key game.  When he went bezerk and committed an unnecessary (and dumb!) penalty that led to his ejection, the Lions had just stopped Green Bay on a key third and goal play and were only trailing 7-0.  Suh's childish and unsportsmanlike play fired up the Packers, who scored on their next two posessions.  He cost his team a chance to win a key game against a division rival and after the game, still did not admit what everyone who watched the game witnessed.  No way he was just trying to "catch his balance" by kicking a guy who he threw to the ground.  This guy, and several of his Lions team mates, are earning their reputation as the dirtest players in the NFL.  Punks, and I hope they lose the rest of their games.

Cheers,

J

[jimdgoulding]

You got that right, Jack!

[macrojack]

I also agree that Detroit's play is "dirty". I lost count of the number of pass interference calls the refs chose to overlook. Detroit's pass defenders never looked for the ball; they just grabbed arms and face guarded on every play.
 I also thought Dallas got away with mugging Miami receivers on several occasions. I don't subscribe to the NFL Network monopoly games so didn't see the Ravens/49ers contest.
Schwartz impresses me as a jerk - as does Jim Harbaugh - easy to see how bad blood might arise between them. The Ryan brothers are also very irritating personalities. Where is the NFL headed if these guys are the future of the league? I'll take the hoodie over these kind of nasties any day.

[jackman]

Agreed Macro!  I've been watching the lowlights of Suh's dirty play and this guy is worse than I expected.  He is a thug and a punk and, if the Lions have any class, he should be suspended BY HIS TEAM, before the league suspends him.  If he continues to play in this manner, I hope a team sets him up, one blocker high and another guy to take his knees out, to get him out of the game before he kills someone.  The Lions seem to be unwilling to clean up this mess, maybe another team can do the league a favor and put this guy out of football, where he belongs.  His comments after the game lead me to believe we can expect more of the same from this clown unless the situation is fixed. 

The Packers, a team I can't root for because I'm a Bears' fan, reacted to Suh's "antics" like a true championship team, they did not retaliate.  They are more concerned about winning the game than the fight.  Schwartz has shown complete lack of leadership in addressing his team's thuggish behavior and, at some point, should be at least held partially responsible for his team's blatant disregard for the rules and for the safety of their opponents. 

Lastly, let the Caleb Haney era begin!

Cheers,

Jack

[cujobob]

I keep looking at the reply and it happened so fast I can't understand the kick...the TV cameras didn't capture the whole play. Before Suh is on top and smacking him against the ground, they rolled around and both of them clearly had a grab on each other. I believe Suh was telling the truth about the OL's part in it, the part about the kick...I just don't know. As someone who has watched all of Suh's games, I don't believe he's a dirty player. The league allows so much aggression by both defensive linemen and offensive lineman and a LOT of holding is let go...all of a sudden, the rules to QBs have become ridiculous. Vanden Bosch was called for a clearly legal takedown of Rogers immediately after the ball was released. He took him down to the ground and made sure not to slam him against the ground and even braced the fall some. It was a normal, legal play and it's suddenly becoming a routinely flagged play with 'certain' QBs. Back to Suh, many of his 'dirty' plays people talk about were not that bad at all. Last year when Peppers slammed down Stafford, nobody claimed that was a dirty hit, not even the guy whose shoulder was dislocated on it. It was aggressive and within the rules.

Let's go through them:
Hit on Cutler:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kw6vxVVXWUM
Clearly not illegal. This is one of the most talked about plays he was flagged AND fined for this. For what, might I ask?


Hit on Dalton:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUAClQ9ZY3I&feature=related
Aggressive? Absolutely, but it looks worse than it really was, the QB was clearly not hurt badly if the first thing he does is get up like that.

Hit on Delhomme:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vtOrd1U5Z8&feature=related
This was a facemask, clearly. It's also something I've seen happen to other QBs, people reach out for the QB and try to disrupt and grab whatever they can. Facemasks are illegal and dangerous, deserved a flag. Necessarily dirty? He took his hand out of the mask and threw him down.

Barber tackle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNxfpaQ0j8A
Clearly NOT a play that should be penalized. It is within the rules to grab a player's hair to tackle them.

These are the plays that come to mind... one was dangerous, but I argue inadvertent. The others, to me, are within the rules.

[cujobob]

I also agree that Detroit's play is "dirty". I lost count of the number of pass interference calls the refs chose to overlook. Detroit's pass defenders never looked for the ball; they just grabbed arms and face guarded on every play.
 I also thought Dallas got away with mugging Miami receivers on several occasions. I don't subscribe to the NFL Network monopoly games so didn't see the Ravens/49ers contest.
Schwartz impresses me as a jerk - as does Jim Harbaugh - easy to see how bad blood might arise between them. The Ryan brothers are also very irritating personalities. Where is the NFL headed if these guys are the future of the league? I'll take the hoodie over these kind of nasties any day.

Jim Schwartz is an awesome football personality. I think if he were head coach of your favorite team, you'd see what I mean. He doesn't accept poor effort or penalties and prepares his team really well. He's a fiery coach and I like it, just as I like Jim Leyland for the Tigers. And for what it's worth, these personalities are definitely NOT new to the NFL.

In that particular game, there were a few plays where the pass defenders didn't look and it was caught on camera. Aaron Berry is a nickle CB who was forced into a big role due to injuries. Detroit actually had a WR playing defensive back in that game because of so many injuries. Wright and Houston are pretty good in man coverage, Houston was out with a knee in the 1st quarter. Delmas is solid in coverage (not great), he was also out with a knee I believe from early in the game.

Detroit appears dirty because of the style of play used by the defensive line. They don't do anything but attack, there are no 'plays' for the most part other than get the football for the DE/DTs. They have a LOT of talent and high motor guys and its an agressive squad. They overplay too often which is a big reason for the lumps of rush yards put up against them. Avril, Willie Young, Suh, Fairley, KVB and Lawrence Jackson are talented guys that are put in a rotation where all of them are used (as well as Corey Williams and Sammie Hill who are also quite talented). They're always 100% rested. They've had a lot of injuries recently so that hasn't been as ideal as it was early in the season.

[jackman]

Jim Schwartz is an awesome football personality. I think if he were head coach of your favorite team, you'd see what I mean. He doesn't accept poor effort or penalties and prepares his team really well. He's a fiery coach and I like it, just as I like Jim Leyland for the Tigers. And for what it's worth, these personalities are definitely NOT new to the NFL.

In that particular game, there were a few plays where the pass defenders didn't look and it was caught on camera. Aaron Berry is a nickle CB who was forced into a big role due to injuries. Detroit actually had a WR playing defensive back in that game because of so many injuries. Wright and Houston are pretty good in man coverage, Houston was out with a knee in the 1st quarter. Delmas is solid in coverage (not great), he was also out with a knee I believe from early in the game.

Detroit appears dirty because of the style of play used by the defensive line. They don't do anything but attack, there are no 'plays' for the most part other than get the football for the DE/DTs. They have a LOT of talent and high motor guys and its an agressive squad. They overplay too often which is a big reason for the lumps of rush yards put up against them. Avril, Willie Young, Suh, Fairley, KVB and Lawrence Jackson are talented guys that are put in a rotation where all of them are used (as well as Corey Williams and Sammie Hill who are also quite talented). They're always 100% rested. They've had a lot of injuries recently so that hasn't been as ideal as it was early in the season.

Are you kidding???  If not, you are in very RARE company.  Everyone else must be wrong about Suh and the Detroit defense.  A dirty defensive player rips helmets off QB's on several occasions and it's just an innocent "accident"?  This guys will continue this kind of play until the league stops him or players from another team take it into their own hands.  Either way, I'll be happy when this punk is out of the league if he intends to play in this manner.  It's not about aggressive play, he's trying to twist QB's heads off...after the play has been essentially completed.  Look at his play on Cutler, not the shot to the back of the head that was called, the one in the begining of the game when he "accidentally" ripped his helmet off.  Are you saying that was an accident?  Take a look and be honest with yourself, do you really think this is a clean player?  Exhibit A:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtmSRNZT9SQ

Secondly, let's look at the clean hit Peppers put on Stafford.  Stafford had the ball and it was a clean sack.  A beautiful blindside hit that is just part of the game.  Did Peppers rip his helmet off or try to hurt Stafford?  It doesn't look like it to me.  Players get hurt as part of the game.  It's a violent sport and hitting is an essential part of the game.  Ripping the QB's helmet off by the facemask or kicking a player who is laying on the ground, after you twisted his helmet, is not.  I sincerely hope Suh messes with the wrong guy and the O-line of a team decides to cut block his knees off...kind's like the Lions were trying to do at the end of their game with the Bears.  They are a cheap and chippy team and Schwartz is a disgrace to the game.  I was happy for the team at the start of the season but can't root for a team that plays as dirty as the Lions. 

Here is Peppers' Clean hit on Stafford's punk a$$ :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELMxIseMyL0


That play by Peppers was a clean hit by a future HOF player.  The play by Suh is one of many cheap shots by a guy who is probably going to be suspended for his intentionally dirty play.  Good riddance!

Cheers,

J


PS - Another Suh cheap shot that wasn't called.  This guy is my new favorite player to root against.  I hope to see him carted off on a stretcher someday for the antics he pulls on other players.  It's a shame because he's a talented player and an intelligent guy who just chooses to be a cheap shot punk:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBM2WazyWfI

[thunderbrick]

The Packers, a team I can't root for because I'm a Bears' fan, reacted to Suh's "antics" like a true championship team, they did not retaliate.  They are more concerned about winning the game than the fight. 
Cheers,

Jack

+1!  Shit happens on the field, but grinding a guy's face in the ground while getting up is classless.  Stomping his arm is BS!  I am surprised the Packers didn't swarm him.

In my college years when we played (rough) flag football, if a guy did that he was ostracized from the weekend games right away.  And from the lunch table, too.

[cujobob]

That punch against the Patriots was because the Patriot player was facemasking Lawrence Jackson and twisting his head around, are you kidding me? He defended his player who was having his head thrown around. I'd knock you down if you were choking my friend, I'm just dirty like that.

Going over the top of a guy and taking his helmet off makes him dirty? He's likely trying to intimidate him, if it's a penalty, penalize him. On ANY of these plays Suh could have injured the player badly but didn't. I argue he's trying to intimidate them. If he wanted to be dirty, he'd injure them.

Watch this again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBM2WazyWfI

What was the offensive player doing to Lawrence Jackson's face? You can't argue that someone is dirty for coming to his teammate's defense IMO.

[jackman]

The next time Suh "accidentally" tries to rip off a player's head by twisting his helmet of facemask, I hope a player from the other team comes to his "rescue" and puts a helmet on Suh's knee or gives him a shot to the back of the head and takes him out.  This guy is garbage like the Lions' organization.  They can't tell the difference between hard hitting, clean football and cheap shot crap.  The fact that he has not killed anyone or seriously injured anyone is a very weak defense.  If he keeps playing like this, it's only a matter of time before he seriuosly hurts another player. 

I know of no other player who tries to "intimidate" other players by repeatedly trying to rip their heads off by the facemask (often after the whistle has sounded), or kicking a guy when he is down as he did against the Packers.  Your opinion of Suh, as a clean player, is not shared by anyone who is not a die-hard Lions' fan, or a member of his immediate family.  He was voted BY HIS PEERS, as the dirtiest player in the NFL, overwhelmingly over the next closest player.  I guess he's just misunderstood by the players who compete against him???

http://www.nesn.com/2011/11/ndamukong-suh-voted-dirtiest-player-in-nfl-by-his-peers.html

Lastly, the Peppers' hit on Stafford was not only clean, it was a thing of beauty.  Comparing a punk like Suh to a future hall of fame player like Peppers is an insult to every fan of the game.  It's too bad the Bears don't have another game against the Lions this year.  I'd love to see Peppers get another shot at Stafford's fragile body.   

Cheers,

Jack

[cujobob]

Not saying that some of these plays don't cross the line at all, but I don't think they make him the dirtiest player in the league. Urlacher tried to decapitate Tony Scheffler against the Lions on a VERY dirty hit (the announcers tried to say he led with the shoulder, but if you look in the replay, it was helmet first and he didn't even put his arms out to tackle). Those are the types of things that make a player 'dirty' in my opinion. Intent to injure = dirty, aggressive play without trying to injure someone is fine by me.

I respect your opinion, but there is more to look at.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guG2vd-uAfY Peppers helmet to helmet on Rodgers. Not the dirtiest play ever, but not an accident either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWQbI_z4wiA Urlacher intentional helmet to helmet (he follows Scheffler's head as he moves it even...)

Just some examples. If Urlacher takes a helmet off there using his hands and no injury...not dirty. As such, very dirty and led to a concussion for Scheffler.



As for your poll, it was 111 players polled apparently with 1,696 active players in the league.

[jackman]

Hey, I'm not going to debate this because neither us are going to change the other person's mind.  That Urlacher hit was 100% clean, it was obviously a shoulder hit.  That's just football. 

The Peppers hit was a helmet to helmet and these types of hits happen in the game.  Peppers is not known as a dirty player, however do a Google search for dirtiest player in the NFL and let me know what you come up with.  I think you already know the answer. 

You can look up hundreds of marginal plays where players led with the helmet, etc., but very few players do what Suh has done since he's been in the league.  I hate that guy and look forward to seeing him carted off the field or suspended for a long time.  Hopefully, the league will do the right thing and give this big baby a long time-out to think about his behavior.  I'm sorry about the Lions because the city of Detroit hasn't had much to root from an NFL perspective.  Great baseball and hockey teams, two of the best in either sport.  I have a soft spot for Detroit because the city has seen some tough times.  Wanted to root for the Lions (when they aren't playing the Bears) but I can't get myself to pull for these types of players. 

I wish Harbaugh would have stopped and knocked Schwartz out after the handshake incident.  Schwartz is an unprofessional scum who, unfortunately, leads by example.   It was similar to the way the Lions played during  the Bears' game when the game was already decided.  Chop blocks, late hits and chippy, dirty play.  It kills me the Bears don't have another opportunty to humiliate the Lions one more time this year and possibly pay Stafford back for his cheap shot. 

Cheers,

J

[cujobob]

Disagree on the Urlacher hit, if it was clean, why not use arms to uh...tackle? The youtube video didn't show the other angle where the helmets hit first but it DOES show that he actually adjusted his head TO hit Scheffler's head. How can that play NOT be considered dirty?

And for someone that wants clean play and respect, I'd think you'd like Schwartz...the altercation with Harbaugh existed because he brushed off the losing coach. Schwartz overreacted, clearly, but it was a sign of disrespect albeit not the biggest deal. The best part about it was when Schwartz tried to get all tough about it AFTER the players get between them...that's where he messed up. Looked kind of soft.

I think Suh's reputation is because of the well known tackles where he took off some helmets. But in all of his hits, he's never injured anyone or hit them particularly brutally with intention.

You want to see someone who has never injured anyone carted off the field? Isn't that a bit much? I want to see Suh stop ripping off helmets and doing stupid things, but the aggression I like. I think he's misunderstood but I really want to know wtf happened with that kick. The OL didn't even flinch so maybe it looked worse than it did...you'd think cleats into your arm would kill? Look at the videos again, all of the players get right back up, there's no injury, no intent to harm. He finishes plays and plays hard. I'm fine with everything he's done until the kick which may have an explanation. So I'll end my argument here by saying... Aggressive =/= dirty.

[JerryM]

Suh will be fined, and suspended. That's easy math.

Mr. Goodell may, ultimately, have a more difficult time than Suh with the Press. This story was the big Suh news just several weeks ago.

Saints - Giants on Monday night.   Should be a fun game. 

[jackman]

Strange week...again!  Tebow and company pull another game out!  Even though he hasn't put up Brady type numbers, if he was losing these games, everyone would blame him.  The same guys who refuse to give him any credit for helping his team win.  You can't have it both ways.  Tebow is a winner and, although I am not sure if he will really make it as an NFL QB, it's fun watching him and the Broncos win so many exciting games.  I'll tell you one thing, if Tebow has the ball in his hands in the fourth quarer with a chance to win, I don't think I'd bet against him!  Whether you like him or not, it's fun to watch the Broncos win these games. 
 
Tough loss for the Bears today.  I don't blame Caleb Haney.  He is a young guy and I think he will be a decent QB, after he gets a couple games under his belt.  They almost pulled that game off today versus the Raiders.  The defense looks good and the Bears should have won that game.  Two good kickers in that game (I never thought I'd say that!). 

Cheers!

J

PS - Cujo, I think I was a little hard on Suh.  He is a good player who has a chance to be great as soon as he learns to harness his aggression.  Bone-head plays that cost his team a chance to win will ruin his future in this league.  I feel for the Lions fans because it's been a long time since Detroit had a winning NFL team.  This year looked like Detriot was going to bust through and finally make the playoffs.  Not sure if they can do it if Suh gets suspended or thrown out of more games. 

[Bill Baker]

Saints - Giants on Monday night.   Should be a fun game.

 

Should be real fun here. My wife is a Giants fan and I of course am a big Saints fan.
GO SAINTS

[Hugh]

B2,

The question is who's the boss?

 

Should be real fun here. My wife is a Giants fan and I of course am a big Saints fan.
GO SAINTS