How many Tube watts do I need?

Steve · « **Reply #100 on:** 27 Dec 2010, 05:28 pm »

Quote from: Quiet Earth on 23 Dec 2010, 03:37 pm

A couple of things that were mentioned (or not mentioned) that matter to me regarding single ended triode amplifiers :

A single ended design does not have to split the integrity of the music signal into two different phases to drive separate output tubes. A push pull amplifier does split the signal into two separate phases and then attempts to combine them back into the output stage transformer. Hence, push and pull. I think the simplicity and the lack of phase splitting is a key factor to the magical SET sound quality. This is a big deal to me.

Just a quick comment. I have not found that to necessarily be the case. One trick is to use an SET amp to compare to when designing a Push Pull amplifier, if one wants a partiular SET sound.

Cheers.

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #101 on:** 27 Dec 2010, 10:50 pm »

Quote from: Steve on 27 Dec 2010, 05:28 pm

if one wants the partiular SET sound.

In the broadest most general sense, basic characteristics aside, there are many different SET sounds, in both tube and topology, and they certainly do not sound the same.

TerryO · « **Reply #102 on:** 27 Dec 2010, 10:58 pm »

Quote from: Wind Chaser on 27 Dec 2010, 10:50 pm

In the broadest most general sense, basic characteristics aside, there are many different SET sounds, in both tube and topology, and they certainly do not sound the same.

Tube rolling with one amp can change the sound quite a bit as well. A few years back I participated in a tube rolling session with Doc Bottlehead and several others and each time the tubes were swapped from one brand to another (2a3's) there was a change, some slight while others resulted in a very noticable difference.

I will say that I prefer Class A amps, either Solid State or SET.

Best Regards,
TerryO

opnly bafld · « **Reply #103 on:** 28 Dec 2010, 02:27 am »

Quote from: Wind Chaser on 27 Dec 2010, 10:50 pm

In the broadest most general sense, basic characteristics aside, there are many different SET sounds, in both tube and topology, and they certainly do not sound the same.

I think you took Steve's response too literally, he was replying to Quiet Earth's (and rollo's) assertion that SETs are inherently better than P/P amps (Steve has worked with both types). He seems to be saying that by using an SET as a reference a well designed P/P can combine the positive qualities of both.

Lin

Edit: Steve beat me to it and clarified his post above.

opnly bafld · « **Reply #104 on:** 28 Dec 2010, 02:54 am »

Quote from: Quiet Earth on 23 Dec 2010, 03:37 pm

Last but not least to anyone studying all of these rules and theory for what makes an amplifier tick, go and listen to one. If you study too hard but never experience it in real life then you will never know. There is no substitute for hearing it yourself.

There are good and bad designs of all types of amplifiers, so I agree with this 100%

Q) How many tube watts do I need?
A) It depends.

Lin

Steve · « **Reply #105 on:** 28 Dec 2010, 03:10 am »

Quote from: opnly bafld on 28 Dec 2010, 02:27 am

I think you took Steve's response too literally, he was replying to Quiet Earth's (and rollo's) assertion that SETs are inherently better than P/P amps (Steve has worked with both types). He seems to be saying that by using an SET as a reference a well designed P/P can combine the positive qualities of both.

Lin

Edit: Steve beat me to it and clarified his post above.

Correct Lin. Checking back to my previous post (which I corrected with "a" rather than "the") I quoted and was responding to this.

Quote

A push pull amplifier does split the signal into two separate phases and then attempts to combine them back into the output stage transformer. Hence, push and pull. I think the simplicity and the lack of phase splitting is a key factor to the magical SET sound quality.

My apologies if I was unclear. I was primarily addressing the phase splitting aspect. It is difficult but a PP can be designed such that phase splitting is a non factor. And this can be accomplished with one less stage that many SET amps need to drive the output stage (depending upon the output tube). Midrange magic can be had. Of course it is quite easy to change the sound qualities of any component.

Cheers and happy holidays.

eclein · « **Reply #106 on:** 28 Dec 2010, 03:13 am »

Ok, here ya go.... Sensitivity of the latest JBL's I have is 89db, 1 and 1 at 8ohms, room is whatever I said- 12X 16, 7 ft ceilings??
So give me your thoughts on minimum watts I should shot for, not "if its a _ then" or "if its not a _ then"...just a number, maybe I should do a poll...

Hugh · « **Reply #107 on:** 28 Dec 2010, 06:08 am »

Based on our own experience at RMAF, I believe 16W is good enough in your room.

We played our Trinity monitor speakers (90db) with Melody AN211 Integrated Amp. (16W) and had never gone past 10 O'clock and it was plenty loud in a typical hotel room.

Quote from: eclein on 28 Dec 2010, 03:13 am

Ok, here ya go.... Sensitivity of the latest JBL's I have is 89db, 1 and 1 at 8ohms, room is whatever I said- 12X 16, 7 ft ceilings??
So give me your thoughts on minimum watts I should shot for, not "if its a _ then" or "if its not a _ then"...just a number, maybe I should do a poll...

JohnR · « **Reply #108 on:** 28 Dec 2010, 06:10 am »

Quote from: eclein on 28 Dec 2010, 03:13 am

Ok, here ya go.... Sensitivity of the latest JBL's I have is 89db, 1 and 1 at 8ohms, room is whatever I said- 12X 16, 7 ft ceilings??
So give me your thoughts on minimum watts I should shot for, not "if its a _ then" or "if its not a _ then"...just a number, maybe I should do a poll...

I haven't followed all the twists and turns of the thread, but if the TWO.2 is adequate in your room with those speakers then an EL34 push-pull amp of 30-35W per channel should work out very nicely, at least as a first tube amp. It's a classic topology and kinda hard to go wrong with (in my opinion/experience).

[Edit] I wouldn't disagree with Hugh either - there are so many variables, and 16W is only 3dB down from 30.

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #109 on:** 28 Dec 2010, 08:31 am »

Another way of looking at this question is it depends... How much gas do you need to travel a 60 mile round trip in a car that gets 30 mpg? What if the round trip is 150 miles or 1200 miles?

Need is determined by the demand. Knowing how loud you like to listen and how sensitive your speakers are will give you a good idea as to how much power you'll need... BUT in the same way you can't go further than 60 miles with 2 gallons of gas into a car that gets 30 mpg so you don't want to cut it too close. Having a little extra in reserve is a good idea.

This doesn't offer you a precise answer because we haven't factored in the size of the room or how far you'll be seated back from your speakers, but chances are if you are content to listen at lower volumes (which can still be loud for some people) you may not need nearly as much power as you might imagine.

eclein · « **Reply #110 on:** 28 Dec 2010, 12:37 pm »

JohnR, Windchaser, Hugh...Thanks, I'm going with minimum of 30-> whatever, but its a start, if I concentrate on affordable options keeping that minimum in mind I think I'll be OK. Like John said the TWO.2 fits my needs perfectly (and in reality I really don't need to do anything, I'm just curious about trying) so I'll start with something 30 -35 or whatever the vendor offers. Thanks Guys as always!!!!

TerryO · « **Reply #111 on:** 28 Dec 2010, 06:37 pm »

Quote from: JohnR on 28 Dec 2010, 06:10 am

I haven't followed all the twists and turns of the thread, but if the TWO.2 is adequate in your room with those speakers then an EL34 push-pull amp of 30-35W per channel should work out very nicely, at least as a first tube amp. It's a classic topology and kinda hard to go wrong with (in my opinion/experience).

[Edit] I wouldn't disagree with Hugh either - there are so many variables, and 16W is only 3dB down from 30.

I agree, if a SET doesn't have the required watts then a push-pull amp is probably the answer. BTW: The EL34 is an excellent sounding tube and would be my first preference in a PP amp and it also has the advantage of being available at a very affordable price.

Best Regareds,
TerryO

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #112 on:** 28 Dec 2010, 11:51 pm »

Quote from: TerryO on 28 Dec 2010, 06:37 pm

The EL34 is an excellent sounding tube and would be my first preference in a PP amp and it also has the advantage of being available at a very affordable price.

That depends on the amp. I've heard a Cayin with EL34 tubes that was slow and sluggish, it made SS sound like a god send. Also the better EL34's can be a bit pricey. My premium grade matched Black Treasure EL34s were a few hundred dollars.

TerryO · « **Reply #113 on:** 29 Dec 2010, 12:16 am »

Quote from: Wind Chaser on 28 Dec 2010, 11:51 pm

That depends on the amp. I've heard a Cayin with EL34 tubes that was slow and sluggish, it made SS sound like a god send. Also the better EL34's can be a bit pricey. My premium grade matched Black Treasure EL34s were a few hundred dollars.

Yes, it does depend on the amp, and that's true for just about any of them. With the Cayin (which I've never heard), was it the brand of tubes or the Amp itself? Or Both?

I've heard many EL34 amps that sound quite nice in PP with rather ordinary tubes. Those Black Treasure tubes you speak of are expensive for EL34s, but have you priced some of the better 300B and 2A3 tubes lately?

Best Regards,
TerryO

Wayne1 · « **Reply #114 on:** 29 Dec 2010, 12:52 am »

Ed,

As you like to look for vintage gear on Craigslist, you might want to see if you can pick up a Dynaco Stereo 70. With your luck, you might be able to find one for a few hundred dollars.

In stock form it is a very good introduction to tube amps. There are MANY variations of mods for this amp. Mr. Van Alstine has done lots of work with this circuit.
AVA Ultimate 70

So has Kevin Carter K&K Audio ST70 mod

The mods done by Bob Latino are also popular.

Tubes4HiFi

You would need some form of pre-amp with a Stereo 70, but that just gives you more options

eclein · « **Reply #115 on:** 29 Dec 2010, 01:00 am »

Happy New Year almost Wayne!!!!! Hey thanks for the info, I'm already on it, doing hourly CL searches, amazing how many JBL's I've seen alone in the past week, let alone receivers, tons of ipods, ipads....no Dynaco's yet but it will happen, it always does!!!!
Have a great New Year and enjoy that new amp you got!!!!! you dog...

Wayne1 · « **Reply #116 on:** 29 Dec 2010, 01:39 am »

Quote from: eclein on 29 Dec 2010, 01:00 am

Happy New Year almost Wayne!!!!! Hey thanks for the info, I'm already on it, doing hourly CL searches, amazing how many JBL's I've seen alone in the past week, let alone receivers, tons of ipods, ipads....no Dynaco's yet but it will happen, it always does!!!!
Have a great New Year and enjoy that new amp you got!!!!! you dog...

Thank you, Ed.

Happy holidays to you and yours.

The EE M88 is a great amp. Fantastic transformers. It measures well and sounds better

Unfortunately, I had a chance to hear it with better tubes than what comes with it stock. That led to even more money being spent. I do have to say the Pavane 12A*7-T series are amazing. But so are the Treasure KT88.

Try to keep some money put aside for new tubes on any piece of used gear.

Enjoy the hunt.

TerryO · « **Reply #117 on:** 29 Dec 2010, 01:48 am »

For the Dynaco ST-70's you have many choices as Wayne1 has shown above. I might add that Classic Valve Design in Canada not only carries some really nice Dynaco restoration PCBs, but the VTA Driver Bds that Bob Latino uses in his modded Dynaco.
However, "Gregg the Geek" has recently designed a new driver board that has gotten a lot of praise.

Dave Dlugos (Planet10) uses Gregg's modded version of the ST-70 ("The Dynamutt") as his "main" amp and he has a "lot" of gear to choose from!

Here's a link: http://www.classicvalve.ca/dynaco.html#DYNAMUTT

Best Regards,
TerryO

SteveFord · « **Reply #118 on:** 29 Dec 2010, 02:25 am »

Did you mention what your budget is?

jeffh · « **Reply #119 on:** 29 Dec 2010, 04:14 am »

Quote from: Wayne1 on 29 Dec 2010, 12:52 am

Ed,

As you like to look for vintage gear on Craigslist, you might want to see if you can pick up a Dynaco Stereo 70. With your luck, you might be able to find one for a few hundred dollars.

What would be a good price for a Dynaco Stereo 70 that works, but in original condition(built in the 70's) and probably needs restoration and cleaning?