[eclein]

I'll most definitely buy from Ian Grant for several reasons one of which I get a nice discount as a current customer- discount card. He knows his stuff and backs it up, I don't know anyone from Jolida, and Ian like Seth at Virtue is accessible and slightly twisted like me, he's an old studio cat from back in the day.
I bet that first unit I'm lusting over sounds awesome, it got great reviews! Someday I will have one now that I know I'm not dyin.

[Wind Chaser]

Someday I will have one now that I know I'm not dyin.

We're all dying, it's just a matter of time...

[raindance]

The 300B looks interesting but is not really priced as entry level for a first foray into tubes. Note the discrepancy in the specs - it has "115V transformers" but in the tech specs it requires 110V. Plus he's a drummer, so I'd suggest push-pull for more punch than a 300B can do. I'm an old school live sound guy too but hate spending too much cash when I can have money left over for something else, like music CD's.

I think Jolidas are OK for the price point and they are made for 120V. Those who don't like the idea - have you heard them?

[eclein]

Raindance...thanks for the info, can you explain the differences between "Push-Pull", SET and whatever else is out there, I'd appreciate the education. Thanks

[sebrof]

The 300B looks interesting but is not really priced as entry level for a first foray into tubes. Note the discrepancy in the specs - it has "115V transformers" but in the tech specs it requires 110V. Plus he's a drummer, so I'd suggest push-pull for more punch than a 300B can do. I'm an old school live sound guy too but hate spending too much cash when I can have money left over for something else, like music CD's.

I think Jolidas are OK for the price point and they are made for 120V. Those who don't like the idea - have you heard them?

I've owned a couple of JoLidas and always thought they were good for the money. Mike Allen is a great guy as well (call JoLida in Maryland and he's the guy who often answers).

I don't have a lot of experience with the 300b, but as a guy who runs 2A3 and 6L6 single ended amps, I agree with your assessment of a SE amp for a drummer looking for impact. Having said that there is a new Jolida 300b SE amp from a reputable seller on audio gon com for less than $1,000. I do not need another amp, but at that price it is very tempting.

[sebrof]

Raindance...thanks for the info, can you explain the differences between "Push-Pull", SET and whatever else is out there, I'd appreciate the education. Thanks

Push Pull uses more than 1 (usually 2) output / power tubes per channel. You can pretty much use any tube type in PP, but most common modern tube amps use 2 each EL84 (20 watts?), EL34 (35 - 50 watts), KT-88, 6550 (50 - 60 watts), give or take a few watts. Many others as well. Vintage amps use those and also other tubes I'd have to google to list, not familiar with them.
SET = single ended triode. Most common triodes are 45 (1-2 watts), 2A3 (4 watts), 300b (8 watts). They use 1 triode per channel (hence single ended). Any of these triodes can be used in PP but are most often not.
You can also have single ended pentodes (see above PP tube types, EL84 et al). Many people refer to them as SET but they're really SEP.
My opinions:
Any configuration (including SS) can sound bad or excellent, depending on the amp, and just as importantly depending on the speakers they are used with.
PP will do a wider variety of music well.
SET will do a lot of music exceptionally well, especially acoustic, vocals, small jazz, not-too-heavy rock. I run 2A3 SET with single driver speakers because most of my listening is to these types of music.
SET does not crumble and fall apart at the feet of complex music, nor does it put the listener into an altered state of consciousness. If you read a bit about SET you'll read both of these extremes.

You can probably tell I'm partial to SET, but by no means is it the best for everyone.

[raindance]

Raindance...thanks for the info, can you explain the differences between "Push-Pull", SET and whatever else is out there, I'd appreciate the education. Thanks

Push-pull is typically class AB where the workload is split between two tubes each handling part of the audio cycle. Class AB amps are not as "pure" sounding as SET due to different harmonic distortion structure. However, they are far more efficient and waste a lot less energy doing their job. They drive more watts using cheaper tubes (pentodes usually) and can provide more punch and kick into a speaker load. They have better extension (usually) than SET, but the whole ball of wax depends on the quality (proportional to price) of the transformers. A lot of push pull class AB amps can be run in triode mode for a slight taste of SET sound. Huge amount of choices. Usually cheap = crap.

SET is single ended triode. Here a single triode amplifies the whole waveform. They are very inefficient and waste most of the input power as heat, outputting only a few watts into the load. They distort in a pleasant way and sound very clean and pure, but usually do not have good bass control. They are usually used in a vocal-orientated setup. Once again, the transformers are key and good SET transformers are very pricey. There are a lot of choices. Typically cheap = crap.

SEP is single ended pentode. Cheaper tubes running single ended with a few watts output for a very low cost. They are not very popular.

OTL is output transformerless. Basically the manufacturer pretends that a tube can drive a speaker directly. Some of them, matched with the right speakers, can sound very good (surprisingly as the theory says they shouldn't). But tubes are high impedance devices and really don't "like" modern speakers.

IMHO the output transformer is responsible for a lot of the tube magic and causes some non linearities in the phase response that make imaging more intense/interesting.

PS: tube amps output power does not increase when decreasing speaker impedance. You get 4 ohm or 8 ohm taps on an amp. Either set provides the same power into the appropriate load. With OTL amps they work opposite to transistor amps - the output power increases into higher speaker impedances.

[raindance]

  both posted about the same thing at the same time...

[sebrof]

both posted about the same thing at the same time...

Yeah, but yours is better
Maybe between the 2 posts it'll make sense.

[JohnR]

As a clarifying point, push-pull can be Class A and have no negative feedback. They can also use triodes.

OTL is output transformerless. Basically the manufacturer pretends that a tube can drive a speaker directly. Some of them, matched with the right speakers, can sound very good (surprisingly as the theory says they shouldn't). But tubes are high impedance devices and really don't "like" modern speakers.

I don't think that theory says that OTL shouldn't sound good... OTL amps will tend to have a lower damping factor than other types of amp, but then again, so do SETs. It depends on factors like the power tube, the number of them, and amount of feedback employed.

[raindance]

Low damping factor + poor impedance matching = very speaker dependent. That's really what I'm saying about OTL. And yes, this is why SET amps can be a bit woolly in the bass too.

As for all the classes of operation, it will make a non-techie persons head explode when we talk about biasing into class A, class AB1, class AB2, etc...

We didn't even discuss cathode (self) bias as opposed to manual bias and how that affects (1) ease of use and (2) output power.

For example: EL84 tube pairs in push pull using manual bias can push around 20 watts a channel. In cathode bias, around 10 watts a side. Connected in triode mode and with cathode bias, these can sound magnificent, but then they push only around 5 watts a side. Get the idea?

So when a foreign manufacturer advertises and amp and these items in combination don't add up, usually there is some inflation of capability going on. Of course, to be totally sarcastic, this never happens.

[zybar]

As a clarifying point, push-pull can be Class A and have no negative feedback. They can also use triodes.

I don't think that theory says that OTL shouldn't sound good... OTL amps will tend to have a lower damping factor than other types of amp, but then again, so do SETs. It depends on factors like the power tube, the number of them, and amount of feedback employed.

Not all OTL amps have a lower damping factor.  In fact, the Atma-Sphere amps I use (MA-1's) have better bass (with great control, detail, texture, etc...) than pretty much any other tube amp I have owned or tried.

While it is true that you need more careful speaker matching with an OTL amp, I have yet to read where there is a technical reason why a properly executed OTL shouldn't sound good.

IMHO, the OTL amp I currently own and have been using for the past few years is the best amp I have owned or used over the last 15+ years.

George

[raindance]

I agree that Atma-sphere does a good job, but we are talking about getting someone started with tubes and there are no entry-level products that are OTL that I'd feel safe in recommending. I've repaired a couple of no-name Chinese OTL amps and seen enough charred and unrecognisable components to last me a while.

[zybar]

I agree that Atma-sphere does a good job, but we are talking about getting someone started with tubes and there are no entry-level products that are OTL that I'd feel safe in recommending. I've repaired a couple of no-name Chinese OTL amps and seen enough charred and unrecognisable components to last me a while.

Please do not lump all OTL amps together. Your experience with Chinese OTL amps has zero to do with the Atma-Sphere products or OTL technology.

Atma-Sphere has been in business for over 30 years and has an outstanding record in terms of product quality and service.

As for the OP and possibly using Atma-Sphere amps...a used pair of M-60's or a single S-30 would do the trick.

George

[Ericus Rex]

eclein, just in case you're unclear as to what triode, tetrode and pentode mean in the first place; these terms refer to the number of components within the tube (3, 4 or 5).  The addition of a second and then third grid made the tetrode and pentode tubes more efficient than triodes but also created new sets of problems.  For example, the pentode tube then created unacceptable odd-order distortion and so now it is rarely used in full pentode mode.  Most manufacturers use them in what's called 'ultra-linear' mode which is somewhere between tetrode and full pentode.

When Raindance mentioned using cheaper tubes in triode mode what he was talking about was some manufacturers use the cheaper pentode tubes (often KT88s) but don't utilize the 4th and/or 5th grids in them; so they're using them in 'triode mode'.  If you've ever seen a high power amp that has a switch in the back for triode this is what they're doing; disabling the added grids which supposedly makes the amp sound more like a low powered SET (though this does not make them single ended).  My Rogue amp has this switch and I prefer the sound of Ultralinear vs. triode.

Hope this helps!

[eclein]

You guys are great and I totally understood the different types and then my brain glazed over...LOL

I trust Ian Grant's judgement and he and I have traded emails and PM's on another site and here, so when the time comes he'll
hook me up with a nice amp that won't force me to sell my car and that will match up with my speakers. He's familiar with the JBL Control Monitors that I have so I'll pick his brain and go with his recommendation. The A-348 they have would be cool, the new models with the spiffy tubes would work, so when I get my funds together I'll talk to Ian, he won't steer me wrong.

[simon wagstaff]

Just going to put in a plug for my AVA U70, an amazing sounding amplifier and made a huge difference in my system. 35 watts gives me all the volume I need.

However, it is important to point out, and I am sure you know this, that it comes down to the speaker as well. Better to maybe think about how many watts the speaker needs, not how many watts is coming out of the amp.

In my case I have a pair of Infinity IM 4.1. they have a built in sub amp for each speaker, crossed over at 80 hz. U70 and IM 4.1 is a match made in heaven to my ears. The other factor was the cables. Once I put in some of those "silly" Audioquest cables and speaker wire with the battery packs the sound improved dramatically.

Though I know that there is "better" sound out there, when the recordings have it I have the goosebump factor in spades.

To me, that is what it is all about!

[Quiet Earth]

A couple of things that were mentioned (or not mentioned) that matter to me regarding single ended triode amplifiers :

A single ended design does not have to split the integrity of the music signal into two different phases to drive separate output tubes. A push pull amplifier does split the signal into two separate phases and then attempts to combine them back into the output stage transformer.  Hence, push and pull. I think the simplicity and the lack of phase splitting is a key factor to the magical SET sound quality. This is a big deal to me.

A single ended design does not generally sound less dynamic than a push pull design. In fact, my SET sounds more dynamic than any of the push pulls that I have ever owned. Remember that dynamic range is the difference between the loudest sounds and the quietest sounds.  So if your amplifier retains more of the quieter sounds, then you will have a better dynamic range at a volume level that you are more inclined to want to listen to. This means that you can enjoy music for longer periods of time without fatigue. I can listen all day if I have the time. I usually listen at volume levels with peaks around 80 to 85dB. There is no hint of dynamic compression at all. When I want to play it louder (into the middle 90s) there is still no compression. If it does eventually compress, it is gentle and maybe I need to turn it down anyway.

Last but not least to anyone studying all of these rules and theory for what makes an amplifier tick, go and listen to one.  If you study too hard but never experience it in real life then you will never know. There is no substitute for hearing it yourself.

[rollo]

A couple of things that were mentioned (or not mentioned) that matter to me regarding single ended triode amplifiers :

A single ended design does not have to split the integrity of the music signal into two different phases to drive separate output tubes. A push pull amplifier does split the signal into two separate phases and then attempts to combine them back into the output stage transformer.  Hence, push and pull. I think the simplicity and the lack of phase splitting is a key factor to the magical SET sound quality. This is a big deal to me.

A single ended design does not generally sound less dynamic than a push pull design. In fact, my SET sounds more dynamic than any of the push pulls that I have ever owned. Remember that dynamic range is the difference between the loudest sounds and the quietest sounds.  So if your amplifier retains more of the quieter sounds, then you will have a better dynamic range at a volume level that you are more inclined to want to listen to. This means that you can enjoy music for longer periods of time without fatigue. I can listen all day if I have the time. I usually listen at volume levels with peaks around 80 to 85dB. There is no hint of dynamic compression at all. When I want to play it louder (into the middle 90s) there is still no compression. If it does eventually compress, it is gentle and maybe I need to turn it down anyway.

Last but not least to anyone studying all of these rules and theory for what makes an amplifier tick, go and listen to one.  If you study too hard but never experience it in real life then you will never know. There is no substitute for hearing it yourself.

 Me too. Well said. I call it the Humpty Dumpty affect. With all the Kings horses and all the kings men they couldn't put Humpty back together. When the signal is split, your gonna lose something.


charles

[ken]

All this talk about tube watts made me hook up my Cayin TA 30 last night.   I recently had a couple of blown resistors replaced with the intention of selling it but after listening to it for awhile I've had second thoughts and don't think I'll be selling after all.  With the right speakers I really could see how someone could live happily ever after with this integrated.  Also good to hear about the quality xformers as well.  I just wish I ordered mine with the external bias