How many Tube watts do I need?

davidrs · « **Reply #40 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 02:13 am »

What, no recommendations on how to make /treat your hospital room to enhance its Audio-bilities?

All the best!

SteveFord · « **Reply #41 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 02:27 am »

600 wpc @ 16 Ohms - now we're talking. Did I say 60? My keyboard must have dropped a zero due to a sticky key.
Hurry up and get better and go for it!

raindance · « **Reply #42 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 03:29 am »

Some science (for a change): Watts are a measure of power and are measured by multiplying RMS voltage across the load by current drawn by the load (or RMS voltage squared across the load divided by the load nominal impedance). It doesn't matter what produces the watts.

While I agree that tube amps sometimes sound "louder" than transistor amps, this is usually because tube amps are copied from old fashioned designs that have way too high input sensitivity for modern sources, so you are driving them really hard with the volume hardly cracked open at all. Also, they distort gently...

Folks here probably know my opinions on cheap tube amps by now. Cheap usually equals dull and flabby sounding. Some cheap amps are dull and have decent bass. Almost no cheap tube amps have extended high frequency response because their output transformers are crap.

Your speakers, if I remember correctly, are 3-way designs that were originally for studio use in the mid field. They are probably not very coherent in the near field, but it is up to you how you use 'em.

I'd be inclined to try the Vista i34 amp (but it is not all tube, it has a solid state input) or a used Ming Da MC34A or B or a used Cayin TA-30. These are all around 35 watts a side using 2 x EL34's a side and would work well as described. The Vista is quite linear sounding, not far off solid state. The Ming Da has very extended highs and lows and is a surprise (I usually modify these to use western 12V input tubes, depending on the version). The Cayin is spectacular and sounds like a vintage Marantz. It has the best transformers in this group. EL34's have a sweet, sweet midrange.

Moving up in power, try the Jolida JD-502B or the Cayin A-70 or A-88. These are all great sounding amps and a good intro to higher power tubes (they all use KT-88 or 6550 output tubes). These amps have more slam an impact than EL34 amps. Once again the Cayins are the best due to good transformers.

Watch out for the fringe importers of Chinese tube amps. They sell 110V models. These amps will either have a short life or burn your house down as all internal voltages are out of whack (considering that in the USA the mains is often around 127V). The problem is worse with higher voltage tubes. If you HAVE to buy one of these firecrackers, let me know, as I can point you to a low cost mains voltage regulator that works well. Before anyone criticizes me, I fix a lot of these amps and know what I'm talking about.

If you really want great tube sound with frequency extension, try ARC or Rogue but be warned, these are great amps but they can eat tubes.

Oh, and if you are not confident working inside a unit with high voltages that can literally kill you instantly in order to set bias, be very careful what you buy and make sure it has external bias adjustments.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #43 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 03:33 am »

Whoa - I hope everything is OK Ed.

Get better for Christmas brother!

satfrat · « **Reply #44 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 04:08 am »

Quote from: eclein on 22 Dec 2010, 02:09 am

Steve, I'm not sure that's big enough..you have no idea how much I needed a good chuckle, I'm currently residing in my local hospital awaiting further testing to find out why my chest feels like it's wrapped in a huge elastic band and both legs are numb from the knee down-the upside is the food is made to order and my room with flat panel tv is nicer than alot of the finer hotels I've stayed in.
Free Internet!! I'm not dead so life is good!

Life is good in a hospital? Don't be bull$hitting a bull$hitter Ed.

Hope you'll get yourself fixed up ASAP and get back to listening to some music buddy. Then life won't be just good, it'll be f*en great!

Cheers,

Robin

DTB300 · « **Reply #45 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 03:37 pm »

Quote from: eclein on 19 Dec 2010, 04:46 pm

I currently use a Virtue TWO.2 amp and love it, it has plenty of power with the 30/130 power supply, about 55 watts a side my Grant Fidelity Tube DAC-09 is used as a pre & DAC and adds a bit of tube flavor to the sound.

If you like your Grant Fidelity product, have you looked or considered some of their other products?

For other tube amps to audition and see if you like them or not. These companies offer many different models tp fit your budget: CJ, ARC, Prima Luna, Manley, McIntosh, Pacific Creek, and others I may be forgetting. For a Hybrid consider auditioning the Moscode 402

Ericus Rex · « **Reply #46 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 04:34 pm »

Another thing to keep in mind is number of watts you're actually going to use.

If your speakers are 90 db efficient and you normally listen at 90 db (quite loud!) then you're only using an average of 1 watt of power. You would only need more than that for peaks. And how much louder would those peaks actually be? For every 3 db of added gain you need double the power; so 93db needs 2 watts, 96db needs 4 watts, 99 db/8 watts, etc. When you consider tube wattage gets exponentially expensive (darned transformers!) it behooves you to not pay for what you probably won't even use. Like I said before, my 40 watt/channel amp has never bottomed out for me. I also have a 90 watt/channel amp and I seriously doubt I have ever used more than 20 of its watts.

The argument for high wattage is headroom. But considering added costs of tube wattage (iron, tubes, lowered reliability) I say keep it reasonable; 20-40 watts is plenty!

ArthurDent · « **Reply #47 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 05:02 pm »

Hey Ed, tell those Drs to get you fixed up toote suite ! You've got tunes to post, and a recliner to pilot. Be well and home soon.

Here's wishing a Merry Holiday Season & Happy New Year

avahifi · « **Reply #48 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 05:08 pm »

We advise our clients that they can successfully use our 35 watt per channel Ultravalve tube amp where they would normally need 100 solid state watts per channel. We get no negative feedback at all about this recommendation.

Perhaps it is the very soft overload characteristics of the Ultravalve, perhaps it is something we just don't understand, but I can assure you that you don't need as many good vacuum tube watts as solid state watts for a great and dynamic musical playback experience.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

zybar · « **Reply #49 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 06:15 pm »

Quote from: Ericus Rex on 22 Dec 2010, 04:34 pm

Another thing to keep in mind is number of watts you're actually going to use.

If your speakers are 90 db efficient and you normally listen at 90 db (quite loud!) then you're only using an average of 1 watt of power. You would only need more than that for peaks. And how much louder would those peaks actually be? For every 3 db of added gain you need double the power; so 93db needs 2 watts, 96db needs 4 watts, 99 db/8 watts, etc. When you consider tube wattage gets exponentially expensive (darned transformers!) it behooves you to not pay for what you probably won't even use. Like I said before, my 40 watt/channel amp has never bottomed out for me. I also have a 90 watt/channel amp and I seriously doubt I have ever used more than 20 of its watts.

The argument for high wattage is headroom. But considering added costs of tube wattage (iron, tubes, lowered reliability) I say keep it reasonable; 20-40 watts is plenty!

Not all tube amps need those beefy transformers.

As others have said, careful matching of the speakers and amps will have a lot bigger impact on your enjoyment than just adding more watts.

BTW, it was my understanding that you want some of that headroom to handle very short and fast peaks that could soak up a lot of watts.

George

eclein · « **Reply #50 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 07:13 pm »

Thank you all for the great advice and the "get well" notes!!!

When, and if, I try tubes Ian Grant and Grant Fidelity will be my first stop. I really like the DAC-09 and Rachel and Ian provide great customer service. They have a bunch of options and Ian thinks like I do-poor guy!
The A-348 integrated is the one I have my eye on but I'll rely on Ian's advice on the best choice when I finally save up the cash.

I hope everyone has fun during the holiday of their choice and a safe start to the new year. The doctors are baffled but I'm in good hands so I'll just eat good and hang here until they figure out what is going on. I got tunes on my ipod to help pass the time, and some new headphones on the way so I'm all set!!!

raindance · « **Reply #51 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 07:23 pm »

Quote from: Ericus Rex on 22 Dec 2010, 04:34 pm

Another thing to keep in mind is number of watts you're actually going to use.

If your speakers are 90 db efficient and you normally listen at 90 db (quite loud!) then you're only using an average of 1 watt of power. You would only need more than that for peaks. And how much louder would those peaks actually be? For every 3 db of added gain you need double the power; so 93db needs 2 watts, 96db needs 4 watts, 99 db/8 watts, etc. When you consider tube wattage gets exponentially expensive (darned transformers!) it behooves you to not pay for what you probably won't even use. Like I said before, my 40 watt/channel amp has never bottomed out for me. I also have a 90 watt/channel amp and I seriously doubt I have ever used more than 20 of its watts.

The argument for high wattage is headroom. But considering added costs of tube wattage (iron, tubes, lowered reliability) I say keep it reasonable; 20-40 watts is plenty!

You're assuming he sits 1 meter away...

srb · « **Reply #52 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 07:40 pm »

Quote from: raindance on 22 Dec 2010, 07:23 pm

You're assuming he sits 1 meter away...

Excellent point. At 2 meters, the SPL is reduced approximately 6dB and at 3 meters, nearly 10dB.

Steve

Ericus Rex · « **Reply #53 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 07:51 pm »

Quote from: raindance on 22 Dec 2010, 07:23 pm

You're assuming he sits 1 meter away...

And you're assuming he actually listens at 90db....

In the OP, eclein mentioned listening near-field at modest volume levels, if memory serves. And how far off am I if he usually listens around 80 db 3 meters away? Not far off. Those numbers are still relevant.

Chairguy, unless you go OTL you've got to use heavy iron to get 100+ watts from tubes. Trust me, my back knows!

eclein · « **Reply #54 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 08:08 pm »

I'm a nearfield listener so 1 meter is about right.
I found a free spl meter app. for my Android phone so when I get home I'll check out how loud I listen, I'm thinking it's not even near 90db, more like 80ish.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #55 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 08:59 pm »

You're also forgetting that we listen to two speakers, not one. Not that it really matters.

Sitting one meter away is pretty dang close. I'd be more concerned with getting the driver integration with the sound of the baffle correct at that distance. Not that it really matters again. Just sayin'.

drew54 · « **Reply #56 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 09:38 pm »

Coming late to the party...

i have a pair of JBL 100s (the consumer edition of the 4312) in my basement. Best sound from them came from 300B SET integrated monoblocs owned by Triode Pete. All the volume you could reasonably ask for from 8wpc in a 12 x 14 room.

Those spkrs are not power hogs.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #57 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 10:26 pm »

Now that's what I'm talkin' about.

Yo Santa! Sprinkle some magic dust over the defunct W.E. manufacturing plant while you're at it!. Thanks bro!

carusoracer · « **Reply #58 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 11:30 pm »

Quote from: srb on 22 Dec 2010, 01:09 am

Eclein, I also agree you should have some power in reserve. May I recommend a pair of the Audio Research Reference 610T monoblocks with 16 X 6550C output tubes and 600W per channel (@ 16 ohms - not sure what the power output is at 8 ohms)

Steve

I have heard those Amps before driving some Wilson Sophia's. Lots of tube power there

I can not add any scientific methods to your query, but I can tell you that speaker efficiency and impedence are very important as you have found. A good push/pull amp EL34 based will give you plenty of power and drive/ with the Tube Magic in a good designed Amp.

I'm with you I for one will not go without tubes in my system somewhere.

Good Luck

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #59 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 11:37 pm »

Quote from: Quiet Earth on 22 Dec 2010, 08:59 pm

You're also forgetting that we listen to two speakers, not one. Not that it really matters.

That adds 3 more decibels.