[writeface]

Bill
Great info.

Did you do a comparison with PS Audio's
Perfectwave DAC? Just curious.

Thanks

[bhobba]

Did you do a comparison with PS Audio's Perfectwave DAC? Just curious.

Sorry never heard those DAC's

Thanks
Bill

[Eric5676]

I am a little unsure of what more I can say. This, except for the upper midrange issue, is a very neutral and analytical DAC.  It is unusual in that it is both dark and detailed.  It clobbers lesser and cheaper DAC's such as the Havana that I did a direct comparison to.  That was not just my opinion - it was the view of others there as well.  It however does suffer slightly compared to the very best out there at any price - they are more fluid, musical and liquid and don't have the midrange issue.  That's about it really.  I am not the type for flowery talk comparing midrange bloom etc etc. I tend to get right to the point as I see it.  Bottom line is this DAC is worth a listen in this price bracket so you can make up your own mind.  While I generally take into account stuff like the designers philosophy and give it equal weight to listening you should seek out and listen to the products that interest you.  Really that's the most I can do - is it worth seeking out - beyond that its up to you.  If you have a specific question I will try to answer it.

Thanks
Bill

Great post. I do appreciate the lack of "flowery language."

I'd be interested to see what your maybe "top 5" are in this price range and even going up a little past it when/if you ever felt like writing that up. 

[bhobba]

I can't really give a top 5 in this price range since I really only have looked carefully at one DAC like that - the WFS.  I would recommend that but two DAC's we will be looking at in that price range are the Tranquility and a new DAC Mike Lenehan and his associates are working on - the PDX.  Watch out for further info on those.

Thanks
Bill

[Dracule1]

Thanks Bill for this interesting thread.  I have the Tranquility DAC.   Just to clarify, the Tranquility does not use the 1704, but it is 16 bit chip that is no longer manufactured.  I will let dB Audio Labs reveal the chip if they feel it's the right time.  It's kinda funny that you know about the Tranquility and WFS DAC, but never heard of the PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC.  Here in the US, PS Audio is very well known company with a long history  (not surprising since it is a US company). The designer for WFS actually did designs for PS Audio and mods for PS Audio DACs in the past.  Anyway,  I think I know what the "secret" $10k DACS is.

[bhobba]

Hi All

I recently attended a DAC shootout that included the WFS.  Check it out:
http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/showthread.php/26992-DAC-Shootout/page4

Thanks
Bill

[highfilter]

Hi All

I recently attended a DAC shootout that included the WFS.  Check it out:
http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/showthread.php/26992-DAC-Shootout/page4

Thanks
Bill

Very interesting read. Thanks for the link.

[ted_b]

Hi All

I recently attended a DAC shootout that included the WFS.  Check it out:
http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/showthread.php/26992-DAC-Shootout/page4

Thanks
Bill

Bill, I realize you were there so the thread is much more "insider" for you, but to this outsider...frankly aside from Rusty's post that DAC shootout thread is one of the most confusing recaps of a shootout I've ever read.  The closest anyone comes to describing what they heard was "anti-WFS" or anti-analytical?  Thanks to Rusty for his detailed description, and his admittance that it really wasn't a shootout per se, but more of a night with some DACs (especially given that the manufacturers/modders were part of the voting group).  I'm sure EJ would have liked the WFS, for example, had he been there.    Sounds like some of those guys are creating some interesting DIY DACs, but other than that it's a tough read to these eyes (and too bad the "no need for hi-rez material" is a conclusion reached.  They must have never heard good 24/192 stuff).  My $.02

[bhobba]

Bill, I realize you were there so the thread is much more "insider" for you, but to this outsider...frankly aside from Rusty's post that DAC shootout thread is one of the most confusing recaps of a shootout I've ever read.  The closest anyone comes to describing what they heard was "anti-WFS" or anti-analytical?  Thanks to Rusty for his detailed description, and his admittance that it really wasn't a shootout per se, but more of a night with some DACs (especially given that the manufacturers/modders were part of the voting group).  I'm sure EJ would have liked the WFS, for example, had he been there.    Sounds like some of those guys are creating some interesting DIY DACs, but other than that it's a tough read to these eyes (and too bad the "no need for hi-rez material" is a conclusion reached.  They must have never heard good 24/192 stuff).  My $.02

Yea true  - well mostly anyway.  So I will just recap for all you guys.  One person did prefer the WFS over all the other DAC's which is in fact a great achievement considering all the competing DAC's except one were two or three times the price and the other DAC was just slightly less than the WFS.  The reason you won't find a detailed write up is that it was promised to be done later so no-one including myself really bothered.  Rusty's post is the closest you will get to it for now, but look out for some even more detailed ones a bit later.

OK the issue with the WFS is it has a slight problem with the upper mid-range that empathizes sibilance.  It is in the ESS DAC and other designers like the one at Audio GD and at dB Audio Labs (the Tranquility guys) also noted it so this is not just imagination.  They tried to eliminate it but never could - Audio GD decided to live with it and say it is not worse than DAC's that don't have it - just different (I don't agree with that) but dB Audio Labs decided the Saber chip was out.  I was able to reduce it somewhat by up-sampling but never entirely eliminated it.  This has nothing to do with WFS's excellent implementation - it is simply a characteristic of the DAC.  What the anti WFS comment was about (and I am the one that said it because I have been living with this DAC for quite a while now) is the total lack of this issue - in fact the DAC was just so smooth, liquid and fluid it was really nothing like the WFS.  It lost in detail and bass slam so take your pick which you prefer.  I preferred it to the WFS - so shoot me.  I really liked this DAC and it was about the same price as the WFS.  The Killer DAC on the other hand is a much more expensive statement product built with uber expensive parts like $300 Duelund capacitors.  You don't really expect the WFS to actually beat such a beast - but it went toe to toe with it which is a great achievement.

And yes, as conformation of the up-sampling theroy detailed later I can't hear the mid-range issue on 192/24 material - and yes it does sound better.  But take my word for it the Killer DAC sounds better than even that.  Many people such as the dB audio guys and the Steve Garland the maker of the Killer DAC are saying properly implemented 16bit can actually sound better than high res.  It's a fact jack as this shootout demonstrated.  If you don't agree - that's fine - but I heard what I heard - and the others there heard it as well.

One guy bought along a much more expensive modded oppo that also used the same DAC as the WFS.  He did reduce the the sibilance issue quite a bit - but at a cost - he used an extremely quick and wide-band output stage that played havoc with the pre amp that was used.  It is conjectured the cause of the upper mid-range issue is the up-sampling used in the WFS producing ultrasonic components that can cause problems with output stages that are not able to handle it.  That is why the modded oppo did so well - but even there it was not eliminated.

The bottom line for the WFS is what Randy said:
'An amazing amount of detail, excellent tonal consistency and powerful bass. But it sounded like you were playing a CD and there were electronic artifacts in the form of a mid treble glare that intruded. Grey background. Microdynamically restricted. However its combination of consistent tonality and detail was impressive in a hifi sense and I can actually believe that some listeners might place this as their favourite'

I would not use the term treble glare - to me this is a dark sounding dac and does not glare - I think what he was referring to is the slight lack of sibilance control.

And for one guy it was his favorite.  But based on personal preferences myself and others preferred other DAC's.   This is not a slight on the WFS - it is simply different strokes for different folks.

These are not DIY DAC's it was being compared to.  There were all commercially available DAC's - but produced in limited quantities by enthusiasts for those that like that sort of stuff.  It is totally different to the WFS and really meant for a different market.  That said if you prefer some of the other DAC's they they are commercially available and you can get them if you want.

Thanks
Bill

[highfilter]

These are not DIY DAC's it was being compared to.  There were all commercially available DAC's - but produced in limited quantities by enthusiasts for those that like that sort of stuff.  It is totally different to the WFS and really meant for a different market.  That said if you prefer some of the other DAC's they they are commercially available and you can get them if you want.

Thanks
Bill

I read a post on the Stereo.net.au by Steven Valve and it really doesn't sound like the Killer DAC is commercially available. Here's what he said in one of his posts: "I sometimes hand make audio stuff, Amps, DACs. for friends or people i like. And i know really love music. Many ask for my help but i usually say no. I do not like audiophiles much, most are Wankers showing off there stuff and not really into the music, I keep away from them. I am not a manufacturer of commercial products but one day maybe."

I'm not trying to down anyone, just pointing out. Can't wait to hear the thoughts on the Tranquility comparisons coming up.

Thanks for posting your thoughts.

[bhobba]

I read a post on the Stereo.net.au by Steven Valve and it really doesn't sound like the Killer DAC is commercially available. Here's what he said in one of his posts: "I sometimes hand make audio stuff, Amps, DACs. for friends or people i like. And i know really love music. Many ask for my help but i usually say no. I do not like audiophiles much, most are Wankers showing off there stuff and not really into the music, I keep away from them. I am not a manufacturer of commercial products but one day maybe."I'm not trying to down anyone, just pointing out. Can't wait to hear the thoughts on the Tranquility comparisons coming up. Thanks for posting your thoughts.

It gives me a great deal of pleasure to hear that people are interested in stuff like the Tranquility comparison since I have been putting a lot of time and effort into making that happen.

I am sure you are not trying to put anyone down but it is really great to see you consider people enough to say it - much appreciated.

I think it boils down to what you mean by commercially available.  By that I mean you can order it from Steve and he will build you one time and parts permitting.  They are as I said limited edition specialty items by guys who do it for enjoyment not to make money.  They are not commercial in that sense.  However they are not DIY either because you don't have to build anything if you don't wish.

Thanks
Bill

[Big Red Machine]

How do you contact the guy making the PDX?

[bhobba]

How do you contact the guy making the PDX?

You get it from Mike Lenehan at Lenehan Audio:
http://www.lenehanaudio.com.au/

Thanks
Bill

[Eric5676]

If you're someone in the States like I am, how available and how expensive are some of these pieces really going to be? I'm seeing a lot of Australian links and such.

[ted_b]

Bill,
Thanks for summarizing your shootout thoughts.  I didn't intend to be so critical of the AU thread but it just became clear, while reading, that no one was willing to summarize his/her thoughts.  And I guess "DIY" was too generic a term for these DACs (it's not like the customer has to assemble them), but to call them commercially available is a stretch dontcha think?    I mean, even the Lenehan website mentions nothing of an impending DAC, while selling speakers and DIY parts (enclosures, crossovers, etc).  I guess we're all wondering as to the commitment a mfg would have on his/her product if its such a one-off currently (and for us Americans, half way round the world).

Anyway, a bit of a hijack, sorry.  back to the WFS.  The shootout comments are nothing like Srajan's experiences, interesting.  I'm still waiting on EJ to have one available for my ears.  Currently the Antelope Zodiac plus is a real find in my evals, although $2500 is not exactly giant-killer territory.

[Eric5676]

Anyway, a bit of a hijack, sorry.  back to the WFS.  The shootout comments are nothing like Srajan's experiences, interesting.  I'm still waiting on EJ to have one available for my ears.  Currently the Antelope Zodiac plus is a real find in my evals, although $2500 is not exactly giant-killer territory.

No disrespect meant by this but I'm hoping we see some more feedback out there before too long and it's just solely on Srajan and one outlet for a number of these pieces.

The Wyred, The Zodiacs, and several others are on my short list. I still need to make a determination fully on how my Cambridge 840c really stacks up. I don't want to make glorified lateral moves whatever I do.

[bhobba]

If you're someone in the States like I am, how available and how expensive are some of these pieces really going to be? I'm seeing a lot of Australian links and such.

Since these are DAC's shipping costs are not too bad - about $100.00  Also here in Aus we have a 10% GST you don't have to pay overseas and that is included in the price.  The exchange rate is about 90 cents on the dollar at the moment so you get another about 10% off.  So to get the rough price in the US deduct 20% and add $100.  This would make the DAC prices as follows:
Killer DAC - about $4100
PDX DAC - about $1300
Modded Oppo - about $2740
The modded Monarchy is still available from Mike Lenehan if you really want it but is being superceded by the PDX so I won't give details on that.

This shootout was only considered to be the beginning of a much more extensive investigation over a longer time period.  To that end I have actually purchased a PDX from Mike and will be comparing it to the Tranquility when it arrives over an extended period.  I will then be sending the Trainquility and PDX to some trusted acquaintances around Australia who will compare it to the Killer and probably some other stuff as well.  I won't bother with the WFS because I believe I have gotten to the bottom of that.

Just to recap on the WFS.  It is an excellent DAC that is close to the very best out there at any price.  The detail it produces is second to none.  It does have a slight issue in the upper midrange that shows up as a sibilance control issue that is reduced somewhat by up-sampling and does not seem to be there on his res material - but then again I don't have a lot of that material to be 100% sure.  Some people will likely prefer this DAC over even the much more expensive DAC's we had at the shootout.  This is an excellent achievement - well done EJ and WFS.  The midrange issue is in the Sabre and nothing to do with WFS's excellent implementation.  It clobbered lesser DAC's like the Havana no problem.  But I did find I personally preferred other DAC's like the PDX that had a much smoother, liquid and fluid sound at the cost of a loss of detail and bass slam.  The Killer to me was different - it was simply REAL - but is a no compromise much more expensive statement DAC

Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

Thanks for summarizing your shootout thoughts.  I didn't intend to be so critical of the AU thread but it just became clear, while reading, that no one was willing to summarize his/her thoughts.  And I guess "DIY" was too generic a term for these DACs (it's not like the customer has to assemble them), but to call them commercially available is a stretch dontcha think?    I mean, even the Lenehan website mentions nothing of an impending DAC, while selling speakers and DIY parts (enclosures, crossovers, etc).  I guess we're all wondering as to the commitment a mfg would have on his/her product if its such a one-off currently (and for us Americans, half way round the world). Anyway, a bit of a hijack, sorry.  back to the WFS.  The shootout comments are nothing like Srajan's experiences, interesting.  I'm still waiting on EJ to have one available for my ears.  Currently the Antelope Zodiac plus is a real find in my evals, although $2500 is not exactly giant-killer territory.

I understand the comments about commercially available and I hope regardless of how you view the term we can agree these DAC's are available for purchase as a completed item if you want them.  I have detailed US prices in a previous post.  The PDX is not mentioned on Mike's site because it is new, but I will have a chat to him about that.  It most certainly is not good to have a product available and not have it listed for sale.  I suspect Srajan was not comparing it to the stuff we were nor on the equipment we were.  The speakers were Mike Lenehans new signature ML3's.  These are simply the finest speakers I and many others have had the pleasure of hearing at any price.  Mikes ML1 is critically acclaimed as one of the best mini monitors available at any price.  This speaker simply craps on that speaker - no contest.  While Mike sells them for $14K if you were to buy them retail you would pay something like $30K.  The amps were $20K MacIntosh mono-blocks that many consider simply the finest available.  This setup is revealing beyond belief.  We could hear every nuance.  That is my take anyway.

Thanks
Bill

[ted_b]

Thanks Bill.

  We could hear every nuisance.

  I assume you could also hear every nuance, but since some folks didn't like the sound of the WFS, I assume nuisance is appropriate too. 

[bhobba]

I assume you could also hear every nuance, but since some folks didn't like the sound of the WFS, I assume nuisance is appropriate too. 

Good one.  It was not a nuisance to listen to - simply not to everyones taste.  The fact one person gave it top spot attests to that.

Anyway the Tranquility has now arrived down at Mikes place and am just copying songs over to my notebook in preparation for checking it out on his reference system.  Not optimum though with a notebook - its just to give it an initial check out.  Fixed the typo.

Thanks
Bill