[jdbrian]

I was at the shootout and am the owner of the WFS used at the shootout.  Steve Garland in fact thought the WFS OK but Steve has definite views on DAC sound and preferred his DAC and a heavily tweaked pcm1704 DAC describing the sound as REAL.  Having heard both DAC's that is my view as well - the WFS sounded HI Fi ish but the Killer DAC sounded REAL.  Of course my and Steve's view is in no any more valid than 6 Moons professional reviewers.  I will also tell you a professional reviewer was also at he shootout and he had exactly the same view as Steve.  Also I only know of one professional review of the WFS - to really get a consensus we need quite a few more.  Bottom line here is there is no absolutes and many varied and conflicting views abound.  Just because one professional reviewer likes a product does not mean another will nor even that you will like it.  From my experience it would be very wise not to base purchase decisions solely on reviews - seek the product out and listen to it.

Thanks
Bill

Hi Bill

  Unfortunately audiophiles in my area have no hopes of hearing any of these products unless we buy one or somehow get to hear one through getting ahold of a demo unit somehow. So in my case reviews have to be a major source of info. The search for a dAC has been the most frustrating part of my recent system upgrade. There are many new DAC's on the market and the confusion over USB inputs/ what data rates will it play etc. makes for a hard decision for me as I have decided to go the computer route(mac mini) There is also the NOS vs Delta Sigma vs multi bit  debate to add to the mix. Local audio stores carry virtually nothing in high end gear anymore as the market has shifted almost entirely to HT.
  When it comes to reviews I agree that 1 review from a magazine is not a consensus but I also can look at the reviewers history and get a feel for what his biases and preferences are. With owners reviews they have payed for it so they are not usually objective. In your shootout there is a bias built into the review due to the relationship of the builders to their products and the listeners to the builders. There are also a lot of amateur reviews out there that really are outrageous. One I read proclaimed how good a DAC was and then the reviewer went on to say he had tinnitus so bad that it took a level of 85 DB to drown it out.  So professional reviewers with a track record are for me a better source of info. than user reviews.
   I don't have an unlimited budget and I need this to be a long term purchase. I need a product that has a customer service department and a warranty behind it. I also want to experiment with high res. music files so that is an important consideration.
  Everyone has their own listening preferences. When I hear terms like liquid and fluid used to describe music it sounds like all the rough edges have been removed. In my experience and preference these details are very important to me. To others maybe not.

Brian

[writeface]

PS Audio trasnport via I2S is a formidable transport.  How does USB stack up compared to that?

When I had the PS Audio DAC (PWD) the USB performance was only so-so,  and I expected that. I never really believed computer audio could sound really good. With W4S DAC2 my Mac Mini does a great job. Sometimes I can't tell if my source is PWT or Mac. I am sure there is some difference (I believe so) but it is very subtle.

[Eric5676]

When I had the PS Audio DAC (PWD) the USB performance was only so-so,  and I expected that. I never really believed computer audio could sound really good. With W4S DAC2 my Mac Mini does a great job. Sometimes I can't tell if my source is PWT or Mac. I am sure there is some difference (I believe so) but it is very subtle.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=83276.msg833717#msg833717


From a page ago...if you don't mind. 

[writeface]

How's come?


That's interesting. You kept the Perfectwave Transport but got rid of its matching sister product, the PWD.

I replaced PWD because I was running out of room in media cabinet and I was not happy with its USB performance.  The W4S DAC2 has a smaller footprint physically as well as economically, but big on performance. I kept the PWT because I really like it as a transport.  DAC2 was an ideal choice for me because I can still keep PWT with its I2S connection and also have a musical computer audio system.

So far the listening experience has been very enjoyable.For example yesterday I loved listening to McCoy Tyner's New York Reunion from HDtracks (especially the track Recorda me with its drums passage sounding so nice) on my Mac Mini as well loved listening to Christian McBride redbook CD through my PWT-I2S. Best of both worlds for me:) If only PWT played SA-CDs...!

[Eric5676]

I replaced PWD because I was running out of room in media cabinet and I was not happy with its USB performance.  The W4S DAC2 has a smaller footprint physically as well as economically, but big on performance. I kept the PWT because I really like it as a transport.  DAC2 was an ideal choice for me because I can still keep PWT with its I2S connection and also have a musical computer audio system.

So far the listening experience has been very enjoyable.For example yesterday I loved listening to McCoy Tyner's New York Reunion from HDtracks (especially the track Recorda me with its drums passage sounding so nice) on my Mac Mini as well loved listening to Christian McBride redbook CD through my PWT-I2S. Best of both worlds for me:) If only PWT played SA-CDs...!

Thanks for this feedback. The PWT plays everything but SACD, right? What can it NOT do is probably the cleanest question I can ask.

[bhobba]

Unfortunately audiophiles in my area have no hopes of hearing any of these products unless we buy one or somehow get to hear one through getting ahold of a demo unit somehow. So in my case reviews have to be a major source of info. The search for a dAC has been the most frustrating part of my recent system upgrade. There are many new DAC's on the market and the confusion over USB inputs/ what data rates will it play etc. makes for a hard decision for me as I have decided to go the computer route(mac mini) There is also the NOS vs Delta Sigma vs multi bit  debate to add to the mix. Local audio stores carry virtually nothing in high end gear anymore as the market has shifted almost entirely to HT.  When it comes to reviews I agree that 1 review from a magazine is not a consensus but I also can look at the reviewers history and get a feel for what his biases and preferences are. With owners reviews they have payed for it so they are not usually objective. In your shootout there is a bias built into the review due to the relationship of the builders to their products and the listeners to the builders. There are also a lot of amateur reviews out there that really are outrageous. One I read proclaimed how good a DAC was and then the reviewer went on to say he had tinnitus so bad that it took a level of 85 DB to drown it out.  So professional reviewers with a track record are for me a better source of info. than user reviews.  I don't have an unlimited budget and I need this to be a long term purchase. I need a product that has a customer service department and a warranty behind it. I also want to experiment with high res. music files so that is an important consideration.  Everyone has their own listening preferences. When I hear terms like liquid and fluid used to describe music it sounds like all the rough edges have been removed. In my experience and preference these details are very important to me. To others maybe not.

Of course, of course.  Interestingly though I have heard liquid, smooth and fluid DAC's that are detailed - but not with the detail of the WFS.  It really is king of the detail retrieval.  But there is that upper midrange issue - it is not my cup of tea.  If I had heard it before purchasing then I too may have avoided going down this path - which is the reason for my comment.  But I acknowledge doing that can be damn hard at times and we do need to bite the bullet.  I wish you luck in your search.

Thanks
Bill

[hmen]

I'm using the PW transport with W4S DAC1 through I2S. Great combo.

[writeface]

I'm using the PW transport with W4S DAC1 through I2S. Great combo.

Hello hmen, Great to hear that you are also using PWT with WFS DAC. Isn't it amazing? Did you have PWD before DAC-1?
Can you shed some light on the performance of your DAC? Have you noticed any sibilance or glare as stated here?
I absolutely don't find anything wrong with it.

Regarding DAC2- PWT is a neat source for this DAC, reproduces the recording accurately. With a combination of DAC-2+PWT I am sure the rendering is accurate, no glossing over. Whatever is in the source you get it. If there are rough transitions you hear it, nothing is hidden.

[jhm731]

I replaced PWD because I was running out of room in media cabinet and I was not happy with its USB performance.

According to a report on CA,  Rick Cullen is developing a USB-I2S async interface specifically for the PWD.

Do you think the DAC 2 sounds better than the PWD?

[writeface]

According to a report on CA,  Rick Cullen is developing a USB-I2S async interface specifically for the PWD.

Do you think the DAC 2 sounds better than the PWD?

Well, I don't have the PWD anymore so I have to rely on my memory of it.  I remember the PWD providing a higher output level.
Except the output level difference, in a blind test I won't be able to tell them apart when connected to PWT via I2S. So I'd say that DAC2 meets PWD in I2S performance but beats it hands down when it comes to USB.

[Ric Schultz]

You guys have to remember that the Tranquility DAC is a tweaked thang.  Eric listened to every little part in it.  Not so with the Wyred for Sound......basically done very well to a price point and amazing value considering how good it sounds and all that it does.  The Tranquility DAC has mucho less inside but has mucho hours tweaking but only plays USB low rez.  So, what about a tweaked Wyred?  How will it sound?  Will it still have some "sibiliance"?  All I know is my tweaked Oppos sound delicious.  And they use the ESS DAC chip.  All implimentations of the ESS DAC chip that I have seen have been sub standard.  The power supply for the DAC (especially the 3.3V analog supply) is super critical.  The power supply and parts in the Wyred are just plain normal.....same with the regs for the output stage (basic 50 cent 7815 and 7915s).  You stick some super shunt fully discrete regs on these supplies and get rid of all the electrolytic caps in their power supplies and use great film caps and you get some seriously good sound.  Mucho other stuff can be done as well (including changing the clock that runs the DAC to a super low jitter clock).  I will be getting a Wyred DAC to do some tweaking on in a few weeks and I am sure I can make it sing a lot better.  Even a simple 3-5 hundred dollar mod can make it sound way better.  Whether I ever do this is not really important.....just pointing out that what is a great value stock can be taken way further.  There are others who are looking at modding the Wyred, I am sure.  This is just the beginning.

[newzooreview]

You guys have to remember that the Tranquility DAC is a tweaked thang.  Eric listened to every little part in it.  Not so with the Wyred for Sound...

I don't follow your logic. EJ and the team at Wyred4Sound spent over a year developing the DAC1 and DAC2, tweaking the design, in your terms, as they went along. And Eric certainly designed with cost in mind. I own a Tranquility DAC and it's terrific. I own a Wyred4Sound integrated amp (with separates on the way), and it's terrific. I haven't heard the DAC2, and I'm so satisfied with my Tranquility DAC that I'm indifferent to hearing the DAC2. However, they are very likely to sound different since the costs are very similar yet one is a USB-only device: one input, one output, no display, no remote, no digital volume control, no balanced output, and no sample rates above 16/44.1. If you have the same selling price in mind (and you're both selling direct via the Internet and both competent designers) then the one who's only putting the available resources into a single purpose, single signal path is likely to produce a better sounding DAC, albeit much less flexible and functional for a lot of users.

If by tweaked you mean optimized then yes, I'm with you. Eric and dB Audio could certainly optimize the design more to get the best sound for a single purpose than EJ and Wyred4Sound could for a more complicated device. If that is essentially what you meant, then I do understand your point. 

[Ric Schultz]

When I say tweaked, I mean totally optimized sound regardless of cost.  The Wyred for sound was listened to, I am sure as they went along.....but they are not super tweaky folks and do not use the best parts or execution.  Obviously, no one can at that price point.  Because they are giving so much functionality it takes away from the ability to totally give great sound.  If they had designed it at the $10,000 price point then they could have used better transformers, more transformers, Jensen 4 pole Caps, shunt regulators, zero feedback super simple output stages, better jacks, exotic PCOCC wire, super expensive film caps, etc., etc.  They simply could not do this at this price point.  It is "tweaked" to the price point but not really a "tweak" piece.  Tweak....means "all out" to me.  The advantage of the Tranquility is that the circuit is incredibly simple so they could use really great parts and optimize the circuit for very pure sound.  The combination of super simple non oversampling DAC and super pure parts and execution makes for superior sound.  Read the stuff on the Tranquility site.....they spent hours and hours refining every little thing......not so on the Wyred jobbie.  Imagine how good the ESS DAC chip could sound if they spent that much time on it!  I am sure the ESS DAC they used to reference against was not "totally tweaked".  Maybe Eric can chime in and tell us how many hours they spent optimizing the ESS eval board/Buffalo board? they were using and exactly what they did to it.  I would like to know.

[bhobba]

Imagine how good the ESS DAC chip could sound if they spent that much time on it!  I am sure the ESS DAC they used to reference against was not "totally tweaked".  Maybe Eric can chime in and tell us how many hours they spent optimizing the ESS eval board/Buffalo board? they were using and exactly what they did to it.  I would like to know.

I have zero idea Rick but what I can tell you is this.  They built an ESS Saber DAC and found an issue in the upper midrange that did not sound quite right and it did not matter what they did they could not get rid of it.  Because of that hey decided against it.  The designer at Audio GD found exactly the same issue - it had a slight issue in the upper midrange they could not get rid of - they described it as making voices sound younger but the way I would describe it is a sibilance control issue.  And once you cotton onto it depending on the material it can be quite noticeable. At the recent shootout I attended I also listened to a modded oppo and I can say for sure the issue was definitely reduced - but I don't think it was eliminated.  Maybe with the statement mods you suggest it can be entirely eliminated - I don't know.  But what I can say is a NOS statement DAC like you suggest was also present fully tricked out with stuff like Duelund capacitors and it sounded fantastic and easily beat the modded oppo.  Interestingly the Tranquility when compared to this DAC was comparable when fed from a non optimized computer source - not quite there but close.  When optimized we will see exactly what level it reaches.   If your modded WFS can beat it IMHO you will really have something - and I may even get my WFS modded - but man is the Tranquility great bang for the buck.

Thanks
Bill

[Eric5676]

I have zero idea Rick but what I can tell you is this.  They built an ESS Saber DAC and found an issue in the upper midrange that did not sound quite right and it did not matter what they did they could not get rid of it.  Because of that hey decided against it.  The designer at Audio GD found exactly the same issue - it had a slight issue in the upper midrange they could not get rid of - they described it as making voices sound younger but the way I would describe it is a sibilance control issue.  And once you cotton onto it depending on the material it can be quite noticeable. At the recent shootout I attended I also listened to a modded oppo and I can say for sure the issue was definitely reduced - but I don't think it was eliminated.  Maybe with the statement mods you suggest it can be entirely eliminated - I don't know.  But what I can say is a NOS statement DAC like you suggest was also present fully tricked out with stuff like Duelund capacitors and it sounded fantastic and easily beat the modded oppo.  Interestingly the Tranquility when compared to this DAC was comparable when fed from a non optimized computer source - not quite there but close.  When optimized we will see exactly what level it reaches.   If your modded WFS can beat it IMHO you will really have something - and I may even get my WFS modded - but man is the Tranquility great bang for the buck.

Thanks
Bill

With all due respect, I know it's a great product and a great value but there's an obvious drawback to something like the Tranquility for a lot of us. All it has is a USB slot on it. It doesn't handle any other kinds of digital sources. Same goes for the $2500 Ayre QB-9. I'm sure these are awesome products at their price points but for me personally, I'd never buy just a USB only based DAC.

YMMV, IMHO, and all that.

[bhobba]

With all due respect, I know it's a great product and a great value but there's an obvious drawback to something like the Tranquility for a lot of us. All it has is a USB slot on it. It doesn't handle any other kinds of digital sources. Same goes for the $2500 Ayre QB-9. I'm sure these are awesome products at their price points but for me personally, I'd never buy just a USB only based DAC. YMMV, IMHO, and all that.

Sure.  I only use the USB input so it is no problem for me.

Thanks
Bill

[Eric5676]

Sure.  I only use the USB input so it is no problem for me.

Thanks
Bill

If that's all I cared about I daresay the Tranquility would be either near or at the top of my list.

[golfugh]

I just want to put a positive on the Wyred DACs!

I'm the current owner of a Wyred DAC1, no it isn't the DAC2, but based on my setup EJ felt the DAC1 was a better match.  I didn't need 24/192 USB nor did I need the preamp of the DAC2.  I'm currently using a Logitech Touch for all RB and Hi-res play which max's out at 24/96.  I have one of the first 24/96 USB-in DAC1's, yes it works, but that is not how I primarily use the DAC.  My system is in my signature, but I will say I use the Wyred STP-SE for all 2-channel playback (this may make a difference, don't know...synergy???).

I have never heard the upper mid issues, nor the sibilance mentioned in previous posts.  If the recording has a lot of sibilance issues the DAC1 portrays such...  It is an extremely neutral DAC.  I do not hear an emphasis in the bass nor highs.  It is neutral across the board. 

If you don't believe in break-in disregard the following:  the DAC starts off boomy in the bass; initial break-in is not not unlike the STP-SE.  After about 100 hrs it settles down and gives the neutral picture previously mentioned.

This is a very nice DAC, I've owned the PS Audio Digital Link III w/Cullen lvl 4 mods and have extensively auditioned the PWD.  I prefer the DAC1.  Pretty amazing piece for the price,

I'd still love to hear the Weiss DAC2/202 and also the Neko.  If the Tranquility ever offers more than USB and adds balanced outs...well we'll have to wait for that.

Mark

[hmen]

Hello hmen, Great to hear that you are also using PWT with WFS DAC. Isn't it amazing? Did you have PWD before DAC-1?
Can you shed some light on the performance of your DAC? Have you noticed any sibilance or glare as stated here?
I absolutely don't find anything wrong with it.

I was using the Vanguard Transport from Pacific Valve when I got my DAC 1. I found the DAC 1 to be an immediate and noticeable improvement over it's predecessor, a Benchmark DAC1. I compared the two a couple of months later after the W4S was broken in and there's no longer any comparison between the two. The W4S makes the Bechmark sound thin and mechanical (please see my add for a Benchmark on A'gon, it's a great DAC)  Being able to compare it to the same DAC before and after break-in showed me that at least in the case of this DAC, breaK-in matters.   
 The W4S is easily the best DAC I've owned. I've used it through both the toslink and Coax. While it's the most revealing DAC I've ever heard, I haven't noticed any sibilance or much of anything else to complain about. As everyone says, the retrieval of detail is amazing.
 A couple of month later I got the Perfect Wave Transport from Audiogon for $1800. EVERYTHING sounds better. I could pull out every cliche about taut bass, PRAT, sounstage, airiness, musicality and they pretty much fit how I feel about this transport and DAC combo.   

[writeface]

Hmen, Excellent. Thanks for the response.