[bhobba]

I was using the Vanguard Transport from Pacific Valve when I got my DAC 1. I found the DAC 1 to be an immediate and noticeable improvement over it's predecessor, a Benchmark DAC1.

I want to add virtually every readily available 'commercial' DAC at or below its price point the WFS slaughtered - no contest.  These were DAC's like the Havana, the DAC Magic, and Peachtree.  Even people who did not like the WFS were shocked at this.  At its price point most DAC's are simply not competitive.  The sibilance and upper midrange issue only shows up on some recordings eg Barry White seemed to have it particularly bad for some reason.  Elvis didn't have it for some reason.  And you probably need very transparent and revealing gear to hear it.  I use ML1's which are steel lined and actually have the transparency in the midrange of ESL 57's - they were designed for it.  It ruthlessly reveals any issue like this.  It was not in the recording as A/B comparisons to a much more expensive reference DAC showed.  I also wanted to add for example the Havana had even worse sibilance control issues to the ears of the 3 people at the comparison.  As I have said before the WFS is a very good DAC close to the very best at any price - just not scary close. 

Thanks
Bill

[satfrat]

I want to add virtually every readily available 'commercial' DAC at or below its price point the WFS slaughtered - no contest.  These were DAC's like the Havana, the DAC Magic, and Peachtree.  Even people who did not like the WFS were shocked at this.  At its price point most DAC's are simply not competitive.  The sibilance and upper midrange issue only shows up on some recordings eg Barry White seemed to have it particularly bad for some reason.  Elvis didn't have it for some reason.  And you probably need very transparent and revealing gear to hear it.  I use ML1's which are steel lined and actually have the transparency in the midrange of ESL 57's - they were designed for it.  It ruthlessly reveals any issue like this.  It was not in the recording as A/B comparisons to a much more expensive reference DAC showed.  I also wanted to add for example the Havana had even worse sibilance control issues to the ears of the 3 people at the comparison.  As I have said before the WFS is a very good DAC close to the very best at any price - just not scary close. 

Thanks
Bill

Sounds like a system synergy issue to me Bill (I want to add) as I have zero sibilance from my MDHT Havana Dac in my system. In fact I couldn't be happier with the Havana's performance in my system. 
 
So your generalizing comment holds no water AFAIC.
 
Cheers,
Robin

[Rocket]

Hi,

What is the difference between W4S Dac1 and Dac2 apart from price?  Not really considering a new purchase but nonetheless I'm still interested in any comments.

I do think to be fair to W4S Dac 2 needs to be compared with other similiar products at the same price.  Whilst I know that Bill is totally unbiased and is hearing the issue that he feels is important to him.  I do place less importance of comments from other manufacturers/designers of products when comparing the W4S Dac 2.  I'm yet to go to a hifi store and have them properly evaluate a component that I took to the store to compare with something they sell.

I remember taking my aksa 100 nirvana plus to a local hifi store and compared it with Bel Canto gear and they totally bagged it on all fronts.  At home the amplifier sounded quite good and I do think that system synergy played a part.

In regard to sibilance I actually find that the musical recording plays the most important outcome than components.  Recently, my system has come a long way and I now find it harder to buy good quality recordings that I like.  In regard to 'detail' many audiophiles like to obtain this from their music and I know that I place a good deal of importance.

Personally, I think that dacs offer minor improvements when compared to speakers and amplifiers.  Just my personal opinion though  .

If anyone wants to send me a dac 2 to listen to I'd be happy to give it a go in my system (though I live in Perth Western Australia).

Best wishes

Rod

[srb]

What is the difference between W4S Dac1 and Dac2 apart from price?

Rod,
 
Sonically the DAC-1 and DAC-2 should be very close, except that the DAC-2 has upgraded "low ESR super caps" in the power supply.
 
But mostly, it's the additional features:
 
Remote Control
VFD intstead of LCD display
HT Bypass input (selectable via DC trigger)
24bit/192KHz Asynchronous USB input (proprietary drivers)
AES/EBU input
I2S input
 
Steve
 

[newzooreview]

Hi,

What is the difference between W4S Dac1 and Dac2 apart from price?

If you have access to the Internet, you can check the full feature list on the Wyred4Sound website.

[bhobba]

Sounds like a system synergy issue to me Bill (I want to add) as I have zero sibilance from my MDHT Havana Dac in my system. In fact I couldn't be happier with the Havana's performance in my system.  So your generalizing comment holds no water AFAIC.

The person that took the Havana to the comparison had no problems in his system and was shocked at what he heard in the highly revealing reference system we did the comparison on.  Only we did not consider it a synergy issue rather an issue how revealing it was. It also showed up just how woolly the bass of the Havana was.  However you can look at it as a synergy issue if you like.  It was really ruthlessly revealing of the inadequacies of the DAC Magic which another bought along.  I also want to add after hearing this he is saving up for the speakers on that system - ML1's.

Thanks
Bill

[Eric5676]

Hi,

What is the difference between W4S Dac1 and Dac2 apart from price?  Not really considering a new purchase but nonetheless I'm still interested in any comments.

If I go with them, the difference for the DAC-2 is easily worth it IMO based on the number of impressions I've read and features/price point in general.

They're both excellent values at their price points. Unfortunately for my wallet I'm one of those "I don't want to have any lingering doubts" types.

[writeface]

What is the lingering doubt?

[Eric5676]

What is the lingering doubt?

I meant in this case, if I myself bought the DAC-1, I know I'd be happy but I'd have that "lingering doubt" of: What did I miss out on not going for the DAC-2 instead? That sort of thing.

[multibit16]

Theres a few things in the ES9018 which makes them  hard to use,  the output stage of the chip is quite different to the norm,  it lacks things like internal switching capacitors. according to one of the ESS guys the way its designed gives less coloration but makes the quality of supplies far more critical . you need regulation with  extremely low output impedance at wide frequency range in certain places to get really good results. Standard LDO type regs are not good enough ,   these chips are capable of excellent performance but its not easy. 

[writeface]

I meant in this case, if I myself bought the DAC-1, I know I'd be happy but I'd have that "lingering doubt" of: What did I miss out on not going for the DAC-2 instead? That sort of thing.

Yes, ofcourse. I'd have the same doubt, too. 

[bhobba]

Theres a few things in the ES9018 which makes them  hard to use,  the output stage of the chip is quite different to the norm,  it lacks things like internal switching capacitors. according to one of the ESS guys the way its designed gives less coloration but makes the quality of supplies far more critical . you need regulation with  extremely low output impedance at wide frequency range in certain places to get really good results. Standard LDO type regs are not good enough ,   these chips are capable of excellent performance but its not easy.

I think this comes closer to the truth of what is going on than anything else I have read.  While I respect the Tranquility DAC guys and the Audio GD designer I have zero idea if what else they were doing when they noticed the upper midrange issue.

Thanks
Bill

[baumer]

A huge difference between the DAC1 & 2 to me is the volume control on the 2. I can connect it to my amplifier without the need for a pre-amp.

[golfugh]

Bill

Have you given thought to it being the recording and not the respective DAC that has the emphasis in the upper mids.  I'm not trying to argue with what you have heard, but as you've admitted it is only on some recordings.  I mentioned that the DAC1 has no upper midrange/sibilance issues in my system unless the recording emphasizes such...

I personally feel the Wyred DACs (DAC1 for me) are very neutral and give you what the recording provides with incredible detail.  IMHO

Mark

[bhobba]

Have you given thought to it being the recording and not the respective DAC that has the emphasis in the upper mids.  I'm not trying to argue with what you have heard, but as you've admitted it is only on some recordings.  I mentioned that the DAC1 has no upper midrange/sibilance issues in my system unless the recording emphasizes such... I personally feel the Wyred DACs (DAC1 for me) are very neutral and give you what the recording provides with incredible detail.

Hi Mark.

When I first noticed the issue it was on a reference system that included a heavily tweaked, much more expensive and synergised pcm1704 DAC.  The first thing we did was compare the WFS to that DAC.  It did not have the issue.  We switched back and forth quite a lot - it is in the DAC and not the recording.  At the recent DAC shootout we had everyone I spoke to noticed it as well.  The issue was if the incredible detail retrieval of this DAC made up for it.  For at least one person it did ranking it the best DAC there.

This is the precise reason I say this DAC is close to the best out there at any price - but not scary close.  It is almost certainly system dependant as well.

Look guys don't get hung up on this issue simply take a recording like Best Of Barry White where I find it quite noticeable and see if you can hear it.  I know, I know for guys that can't get a hold of one to check out this is a big problem.  All I can suggest is to actually buy one and check it out for yourself.  If it does not do it for you on sell it.  Thats what I plan to do.  Yes I will be a bit out of pocket but I can't see what else you can do.  With issues of personal taste and system synergy relying on internet feedback or reviews is fraught with danger.  This DAC IMHO is good enough to be on the short list of DAC's I would be willing to fork out to check it out on.  In fact thats what I did.  EJ may be able to arrange some kind of in home audition as well.  He is a top bloke from my dealings with him.

Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

Hi Guys

I thought I would try and find a song that has the sibilance issue clear as a bell.  I think I have found it.  Listen to the opening part of the first track of Ultimate Barry White - You Are My First, My Last, My Everything.  Here Barry starts singing softly and possibly in a slightly different key than the rest of the song which is louder.  Listen to I can easily feel myself slipping away - you can really hear it there.  Interestingly after that when Barry belts it out louder it is no where near as apparent - the sibilance tends to sound like ordinary sibilance.  I believe the first bit of this track is smack in the problem area for this DAC but the later bit is out of it.  I would say if you check this track out and you can't tell a difference in sibilance control between the two parts of the track then it probably won't be a problem for you.

Thanks
Bill

[Rocket]

Hi Bill,

Too true I have experienced this same problem.

With issues of personal taste and system synergy relying on internet feedback or reviews is fraught with danger

I bought a ps audio hca 2 from the US based solely on reviews.  I remember reading dozens or outstanding reviews and I only read one negative one from Jerry from 10 Audio.  Guess what his review was accurate and I had just sold my aksa 100 nirvana plus and I totally regretted that decision.

This hobby can be so expensive sometimes and I cringe at how much hard earned money I've thrown at it over the years  .

Good luck Bill with your search for a new dac.  Perhaps, the tranquility dac will suit your needs better.

Regards

Rod

[bhobba]

Too true I have experienced this same problem. I bought a ps audio hca 2 from the US based solely on reviews.  I remember reading dozens or outstanding reviews and I only read one negative one from Jerry from 10 Audio.  Guess what his review was accurate and I had just sold my aksa 100 nirvana plus and I totally regretted that decision. This hobby can be so expensive sometimes and I cringe at how much hard earned money I've thrown at it over the years  . Good luck Bill with your search for a new dac.  Perhaps, the tranquility dac will suit your needs better.

I feel your pain.  However fortunately in this case I do believe the issue is system dependent.  The ML1's I have are just so darn revealing.  Mike Lenehan designed them to be as transparent in the midrange as ESL 57's - and they are.  The guy that bought the Havana along to check out against the WFS was more than happy with it in his system - the bass was a bit woolly - thats all.  But in the reference system the WFS simply clobbered it - no contest.  The guy was shocked - even I was shocked - this was the famous Havana.  His solution was he simply had to get some ML1's and better gear.  That's the real expensive part of this hobby - when you hear better gear you can't be satisfied with what you got.  That then reveals inadequacies in other components and you are stuck on the merry go round.

Thanks
Bill

[multibit16]

Hi Bill,

I don't have the Wyred for sound  dac but do have a  BuffaloII (ES9018) with Legato output stage which I have modified and also a highly modified Buffalo32.   Is it the Barry White Album with the blue cover?  I'll pick it up next time I'm out shopping  BTW one of the reviewers on Amazon noted that the recordings was bright  My hearing is very sensitive to sibilance ,  infact my favourite dac before the Sabre was the classic TDA1541S2.  As mentioned before if the regulation for the ESS's are not good enough you get some nasties on the output,  some places try to add heavy filtering on the output  which does more harm than good imo

[bhobba]

I don't have the Wyred for sound  dac but do have a  BuffaloII (ES9018) with Legato output stage which I have modified and also a highly modified Buffalo32.   Is it the Barry White Album with the blue cover?  I'll pick it up next time I'm out shopping  BTW one of the reviewers on Amazon noted that the recordings was bright  My hearing is very sensitive to sibilance ,  infact my favourite dac before the Sabre was the classic TDA1541S2.  As mentioned before if the regulation for the ESS's are not good enough you get some nasties on the output,  some places try to add heavy filtering on the output  which does more harm than good imo

I actually have two Ultimate Barry White.  The one with the blue cover and another one of exactly the same name from 1992 and a different cover.  It is the second one I used but if I remember the blue album is very similar and should have exactly the same issue.  And yes it is a bit bright but as I said the louder bit of the recording has what I would call normal sibilance - it is the start that has the issue.

I am now starting to form the view this could be an implementation issue.  The WFS is an excellent implementation but maybe it vis not he best that can be done.  I was just speaking to Eric Hider last night and they continue to investigate the SABER but it is a tricky chip to work with.

Thanks
Bill