Toyota Recall

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Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Toyota Recall
« Reply #240 on: 23 Feb 2010, 11:19 pm »

Or roll over (see Ford Explorer - 203 deaths + 700 injuries).
 
Steve
Actually, that was due to a Japanise Tire company, Firestone.
The hand of Ford weren't spotless in that deal, but the tire that was shredding was due to Firestone faulty design.

Bob

cujobob

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Re: Toyota Recall
« Reply #241 on: 23 Feb 2010, 11:24 pm »
Wow Jackman is still going on about this...

What's transpired is unfortunate, thankfully there's still Honda.

Ford was very much at fault in the Explorer rollover issues.  The Explorer having a manufacturer recommended inflation of only 26 pounds per square inch (179 kPa) likely contributed to the tread separation problem by causing the tires to operate at higher than normal temperatures.

lonewolfny42

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Re: Toyota Recall
« Reply #242 on: 23 Feb 2010, 11:30 pm »
Might be time to get back ....to basics...  :wink:

srb

Re: Toyota Recall
« Reply #243 on: 23 Feb 2010, 11:52 pm »
Actually, that was due to a Japanise Tire company, Firestone.
The hand of Ford weren't spotless in that deal, but the tire that was shredding was due to Firestone faulty design.

Yes, but Ford had stability problems and wheel lifting with the high center of gravity Explorer, and one of the attempted fixes to lowering the center of gravity, in addition to suspension lowering, was to change the tire inflation specification to a much lower pressure, which greatly contributed to the incidents of tread separation due to increased heat build-up.
 
Steve

Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Toyota Recall
« Reply #244 on: 23 Feb 2010, 11:59 pm »
But no other tire installed on an Explorer had issues. Ever. Even to this day. Those older Explorers are doing just fine with Goodyears, Michelins, etc...etc...
I see people driving around with half the recommended air PSI in their tires, and they're not seperating. Ok, well, sometime they do, but it's not epidemic like the Ford was.

I'm not a Ford fanboy, so trust me when I say I'm finding it painful to defend them.  :lol:

Bob

cujobob

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Re: Toyota Recall
« Reply #245 on: 24 Feb 2010, 12:04 am »
There were mistakes on both ends...that's the point.  It wasn't only Firestone's.

jackman

Re: Toyota Recall
« Reply #246 on: 24 Feb 2010, 01:40 am »
Actually, that was due to a Japanise Tire company, Firestone.
The hand of Ford weren't spotless in that deal, but the tire that was shredding was due to Firestone faulty design.

Bob

I was going to respond until I noticed this post beat me to the punch. 

Ford and Toyota =  Auto companies

Firestone = Japanese tire company

Ford does not make tires.  Why is that so hard for people to understand? :scratch:

jackman

Re: Toyota Recall
« Reply #247 on: 24 Feb 2010, 01:44 am »
There were mistakes on both ends...that's the point.  It wasn't only Firestone's.

How does this compare to Toyota's latest problem?  They apparently tried to cover up some major design faults and STILL don't know if they had a fix.  Ford used faulty tires on their trucks and fixed it by spec'ing different tires.  As far as I know they did not design the tires (like Toyo designed the faulty parts). 

There have been lots of tire recalls over the years.  I don't recall people blaming auto companies for what was essentially the fault of a tire company.  I'm having trouble understanding why this is so hard to comprehend.  Honestly, no joke.


cujobob

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Re: Toyota Recall
« Reply #248 on: 26 Feb 2010, 05:15 pm »
The tires coming apart were the issue, the CAUSE was a variety of factors...of which both parties had some fault.  Therefore, it is unfair to blame a company solely because their product is what fell apart.  If your company makes shoes for robots and my company decides to double or triple the weight of said robots without mentioning it, this could create an issue.

Carlman

Re: Toyota Recall
« Reply #249 on: 26 Feb 2010, 09:56 pm »
On an automatic transmission, the first click "off" won't lock the column. The gear selector needs to go to park before the key will turn far enough back to lock the steering wheel.
Also, something to keep in mind (and I've been in this position quite a few times), try telling your average "soccer mom" when she's got a minivan full of kids that in a worst case scenario when she's doing 70MPH how she should purposely kill the engine by turning the key off, shift to neutral and coast to the shoulder.
Been there, done that.  :nono:
She ain't falling for it. Not for a second.

Anyone unable to put their car into neutral, use brakes, and/or turn the ignition back a click shouldn't be driving a car... including brain dead/unaware soccer mom's.  They need to go back to high school driver ed... and HS driver ed needs to cover emergency situations (like it once did) and situation awareness. 

If you buy a $20-30,000 piece of equipment, it seems like you may want to spend some time learning to operate it, and what to do if it fails.  What other equipment in this price range is purchased and the operators just assume how it's supposed to work.. with no training on failsafes?  It just blows my mind that the drivers aren't at fault. 

What's worse is the media has done nothing to inform drivers what to do.  It's just gossip and finger pointing BS about the executive team.. They don't care about you... they just want to sell ad space.

About those drivers... They know how to turn it on but they forget how to turn it off when their life is gradually put at risk?  It's not like they only have 2 seconds.  I listened to a 911 tape.. it was several seconds, if not minutes for that guy, with a family of people who also had no idea what to do.  Do these kind of people put their hands in blenders and forget to turn it off too?  It's the blender's fault! When will we be responsible for ourselves and our property?  I doubt in my lifetime.  Personal responsibility is dead.

Companies are trying as hard as they can to build products we will like and that are easy and safe to use.. and balancing it with millions of regulations from our sue-happy court systems and government intervention... And we thank them by blaming them or anyone but ourselves.  It just doesn't make sense.  I know we have 'evil corporate giants' but they're not producing products intending to kill us... that just doesn't make good business sense.

No one's going nuts about the food or pharmaceutical industry...  Why would we, they're all just trying to help us, right?  Well, yea, sortof.. they're companies making products for profit.  If there are a few casualties for the greater good, it'll be dealt with.. It's up to you to put the food or pill in your mouth, though.. So, who's to blame?  Is it a national crisis? No.  But people die all the time from products from these industries... moreso than the few that can't figure out how to turn off their car.

Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Toyota Recall
« Reply #250 on: 26 Feb 2010, 10:14 pm »
Damn Carl, you sound as bitter and cynical as I do.  :lol:
But seriously, I agree with you 100%. The only correction I'd make is the price on the cars. These machines are much more expensive than that. I saw a Volvo here the other day for $61.
WTF???? For a Volvo?  :o
And I guarantee less than 1% of the customers have read the owners manual.

Bob

Carlman

Re: Toyota Recall
« Reply #251 on: 26 Feb 2010, 10:19 pm »
Believe it or not, I'm not bitter, just a bit frustrated because I feel 'beaten' by our current society.  I'm officially now in the ultra-minority that thinks for myself and feels responsible for my actions.  That realization does not make me bitter, just sad... but I did need to express my frustration, so thanks. ;)

Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Toyota Recall
« Reply #252 on: 26 Feb 2010, 10:27 pm »
Understood Carl. But the next phase beyond "sad" happens to be "aggravation". The next one after that is "bitter". That's when you realize there's nothing you can do but watch the downward spiral.
You'll get there soon enough Carl. Soon enough indeed.  :eyebrows:

Bob

jackman

Re: Toyota Recall
« Reply #253 on: 26 Feb 2010, 10:41 pm »
Believe it or not, I'm not bitter, just a bit frustrated because I feel 'beaten' by our current society.  I'm officially now in the ultra-minority that thinks for myself and feels responsible for my actions.  That realization does not make me bitter, just sad... but I did need to express my frustration, so thanks. ;)

Carlman, I'm sorry but I completely disagree with the likes of you Cujo and Macro on this subject.  First of all, no one is asking for anyone's head or asking for Toyota to be put out of business or fined.  The government, Congressional committee, is trying (at least on paper) to do their job and investigate a series of serious design flaws that Toyota has experienced on a MASSIVE scale and the media is reporting what is happening.

Mr. Toyoda testified, in tears, that his company made mistakes.  They grew too big too fast and quality suffered.  As a result, 8.5 million cars have been recalled and many consumers are not convinced the problems have been solved. Should congress, the investigators and the families of people injured or killed by defective Toyota cars all just go home, keep their mouthes shut while people like the Toyo fanboys blame "stupid" drivers for Toyota's ADMITTED quality problems?  IF you don't like the way this is being covered or the way the government is asking unfair questions, how should it be handled? 

Should the government just ask Toyota nicely and take their word they will correct these problems?  There is some evidence that Toyota knew about these defects for years.  IMO, this needs to be investigated. 

I know Toyota has an excellent history of quality but that does not earn them a free pass for the apparent deaths of 31 peopleand 8.5 million defective and potentially dangerous autos.  They need to follow the process as they are doing and we need to determine why these defects occured and more importantly confirm they have been corrected.  We also need to determine how much Toyota knew about the defects and if there was a coverup.  These are all fair questions considering the extent and dangerous nature of the problem. No?  :scratch:

geezer

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Re: Toyota Recall
« Reply #254 on: 26 Feb 2010, 11:29 pm »
Anyone unable to put their car into neutral, use brakes, and/or turn the ignition back a click shouldn't be driving a car... including brain dead/unaware soccer mom's.  They need to go back to high school driver ed... and HS driver ed needs to cover emergency situations (like it once did) and situation awareness. 

If you buy a $20-30,000 piece of equipment, it seems like you may want to spend some time learning to operate it, and what to do if it fails.  What other equipment in this price range is purchased and the operators just assume how it's supposed to work.. with no training on failsafes?  It just blows my mind that the drivers aren't at fault. 


There is something in what you say. But consider: If only competent people were allowed to own and use cars, appliances, electronics, etc., our economy would shrink by at least 80 percent.

jackman

Re: Toyota Recall
« Reply #255 on: 27 Feb 2010, 03:17 pm »
There is something in what you say. But consider: If only competent people were allowed to own and use cars, appliances, electronics, etc., our economy would shrink by at least 80 percent.

Great post.  Let's blame the victims because TOYOTA could never be responsible for faulty design.  Must be incompetent people!

What about the steering and brake problems?   :scratch:  Nevermind, those people were also incompetent too!  Idiots!  God rest their souls...

Thanks,

J

macrojack

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Re: Toyota Recall
« Reply #256 on: 27 Feb 2010, 04:27 pm »
I remember McDonalds making their coffee too hot. Poor lady spilled it in her lap but it was Mac's fault.
And look at what Diebold did to us.
Definitely blame the company. Coffee drinkers and voters are never to blame so drivers can't be either.

Jackman - You will definitely not be chosen for the jury. You display vehement prejudice.

srb

Re: Toyota Recall
« Reply #257 on: 27 Feb 2010, 04:58 pm »
When I brought up the Ford Motor example, I wasn't saying that Toyota was not culpable and responsible.  I was just pointing out that every auto manufacturer that has had safety problems have, to a greater or lesser degree,
 
a. Been slow to respond
b. Either been involved in some type of coverup, or failed to acknowledge some documents and memos
c. Tried to shift some portion of the blame to the user/victim
 
Steve

geezer

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Re: Toyota Recall
« Reply #258 on: 27 Feb 2010, 07:09 pm »
Great post.  Let's blame the victims because TOYOTA could never be responsible for faulty design.  Must be incompetent people!

What about the steering and brake problems?   :scratch:  Nevermind, those people were also incompetent too!  Idiots!  God rest their souls...

Thanks,

J

Ahem. Please note that my post made no mention of Toyota. If you had asked me what I think of the Toyota fiasco, I would say that Toyota is egregiously culpable on several grounds. Firstly, at least one, and probably more, of the people at Toyota responsible for the braking system design unfortunately must have been in the 80 percent that I mentioned. Secondly, and even more disgusting, is that the company apparently covered up for some time although they knew they had a problem. And finally, as part of the cover-up, they did claim the drivers were at fault. For these reasons at least, Toyota should be severely punished.

But If, just as a general observation, you don't think a majority of drivers are incompetent, either you aren't on the road much, or you're just not paying attention. But that's no justification for Toyota's attitude. They surely know that, and that's why all products, especially ones as deadly as cars, MUST be designed to be FOOL-proof.

Your own post gives evidence of how even a reasonably intelligent person (as I assume you are) can go off the rails when not paying close attention. You drew a completely wrong inference about my position from my note, with no basis whatsoever, and painted me as a Toyota apologist. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I would ask everyone, when responding to a post, to read it first.





jackman

Re: Toyota Recall
« Reply #259 on: 28 Feb 2010, 12:40 am »
Ahem. Please note that my post made no mention of Toyota. If you had asked me what I think of the Toyota fiasco, I would say that Toyota is egregiously culpable on several grounds. Firstly, at least one, and probably more, of the people at Toyota responsible for the braking system design unfortunately must have been in the 80 percent that I mentioned. Secondly, and even more disgusting, is that the company apparently covered up for some time although they knew they had a problem. And finally, as part of the cover-up, they did claim the drivers were at fault. For these reasons at least, Toyota should be severely punished.

But If, just as a general observation, you don't think a majority of drivers are incompetent, either you aren't on the road much, or you're just not paying attention. But that's no justification for Toyota's attitude. They surely know that, and that's why all products, especially ones as deadly as cars, MUST be designed to be FOOL-proof.

Your own post gives evidence of how even a reasonably intelligent person (as I assume you are) can go off the rails when not paying close attention. You drew a completely wrong inference about my position from my note, with no basis whatsoever, and painted me as a Toyota apologist. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I would ask everyone, when responding to a post, to read it first.

Hey, I was about to say sorry until I read your snippy last line.  Anyway, fanboy was posting some tripe about how this is the consumer's fault or the victim's fault because they didn't know how to drive.  His post was SPECIFIC to the Toyota problem.  You chimed in that "there is something in what you say".  You can hopefully understand why I lumped you in with the other fanboys, even thought you seem to be level headed.  Sorry if I misinterpreted your message.

More news is coming to light regarding what Toyota may have know and what was covered up.  I wonder what the Fanboys are going to say if Toyota did in fact knowingly sell defective cars?   Will they just tell the families of the dead and injured people too bad, you are at fault?  Will they feel the govt is "picking" on Toyota? 

It's looking more and more like Toyota screwed up and tried to lie and cover up their actions.  This is why Mr. Toyo was crying like a little schoolgirl when he testified (IMO of course).  If they are guilty, it will be the biggest auto related pile of you know what a company has ever stepped in.  Like I said, if this was Ford or GM, the same appologists and fanboys on this thread would be singing a different tune about why they drive a Toyota.  What a joke. 

Cheers,

J