New N3 kit (Neo series)!

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EARGASM

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Re: New N3 kit (Neo series)!
« Reply #100 on: 1 Apr 2009, 05:28 pm »
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Stereodude

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Re: New N3 kit (Neo series)!
« Reply #101 on: 1 Apr 2009, 07:00 pm »
I guess I'd be concerned about using a sealed n3 as a center due to the fairly high rolloff frequency as well.  I guess if Danny thinks the servo subs will blend pretty well regardless then maybe he's right but if you, like me, are planning on running your servo subs in stereo full range for music, then crossing over to something else for HT for the receiver's bass management then it becomes an issue.  If I cross over down at 40hz there'd be a pretty big gap there.  Not just for dialog, but effects that sweep across the front as well.  I'd be less concerned about it with surrounds, but I don't know about the front.  I guess Danny would say use a servo sub and cross it over higher, but I've already got the mfw-15, and for the low stuff it's darn good.

I plan to cross at 80Hz myself once I get my sub finished.  Based on my experience I've found that I want a speaker to be able to play flat about one octave lower than the crossover point to get the best integration with the sub.  Otherwise you have both an electrical and acoustic roll off at play which seems to cause the speaker to roll off too fast vs. how fast the sub picks up the bass.

woofersus

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Re: New N3 kit (Neo series)!
« Reply #102 on: 1 Apr 2009, 08:18 pm »
I've noticed that phenomenon myself. (i.e. my rs450's -3db point is 37hz, but if I cross over at 60hz they sound thin.)  I always thought it was more a matter of proper level matching and I was sucking at it.  Either way, I want to cross over to the mfw-15 as low as possible for HT, which is why I want to use sealed servo subs in the fronts.  Also so I can do two channel listening in pure direct mode on my receiver without the separate sub.


fcraven

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Re: New N3 kit (Neo series)!
« Reply #103 on: 1 Apr 2009, 08:35 pm »

I guess I'd be concerned about using a sealed n3 as a center due to the fairly high rolloff frequency as well.  I guess if Danny thinks the servo subs will blend pretty well regardless then maybe he's right but if you, like me, are planning on running your servo subs in stereo full range for music, then crossing over to something else for HT for the receiver's bass management then it becomes an issue.  If I cross over down at 40hz there'd be a pretty big gap there.  Not just for dialog, but effects that sweep across the front as well.  I'd be less concerned about it with surrounds, but I don't know about the front.  I guess Danny would say use a servo sub and cross it over higher, but I've already got the mfw-15, and for the low stuff it's darn good.

There are benefits of doing one or the other, I've found the 40 xover to be good. It all depends on what I'm doing. I don't think there's a problem with low frequency sweeps across the front because with movies, all that low frequency is LFE. My challenge is the default behavior of my receiver for when it sends low frequencies to the sub woofer. Large v. small. etc. Anyway, no problem with a sealed center vs. ported/TL sides. very few frequencies sent to the center are that low. Pretty sure, you will ONLY get speech. (making it quite interesting to disconnect the center)

Danny Richie

Re: New N3 kit (Neo series)!
« Reply #104 on: 1 Apr 2009, 08:38 pm »
Quote
Anyway, no problem with a sealed center vs. ported/TL sides. very few frequencies sent to the center are that low. Pretty sure, you will ONLY get speech.

This is true. About 90% of everything it plays is dialog.

vuce

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Re: New N3 kit (Neo series)!
« Reply #105 on: 1 Apr 2009, 09:05 pm »
Eric, what about 2-ply veneers? Would that work? Sorry if it sounds like a stupid question, i have absolutely no idea about veneering :)

First, let me say that you can do this. It's just not rocket surgery. My experiences with contact cement and veneer did not turn out so well.
I didn't even want to try it, but everyone else said hey, "I've been doing it for years, etc..." So I succummed to peer pressure, and got a great education by doing so. In hindsight, it didn't work because I used real veneer and sprayed real lacquer. It will work just fine with paper backed veneer and contact cement and wipe on finishes that are not a solvent for the contact cement. It's really fast, easy and immensely (and instantaneously) gratifying to watch an MDF box transform into something beautiful in the course of 20 minutes or so.

There are a couple of issues you are trying to tackle when veneering a speaker cabinet, presumably with properly radiused corners. You really have 3 choices when it comes to wood veneer. Paper backed, 2 ply/cross ply, and std. 3/32" architectural grade solids.

1. The radius.
Paper backed veneer does this very well. The kraft paper backing keeps the wood from exploding while you roll the veneer around the curve. Even a smallish radius is manageable, just keep plenty of tension on the sheet as you wrap it around.

A vacuum bag process also makes [realatively] easy work of this, with most architectural grade, non-paper backed veneers.

2-ply veneers come in a couple of varieties, and can tackle some of the same problems that paper-backed does, but you need to specify the radii before you choose the banding type and species. Cross-banded veneer is the type I use when I need to. Usually, I do this in house, applying the veneer in two layers at one pressing; one laid up on the bias of the other.

2. The finish.
If you use contact cement, then lacquer finishes are pretty much out of the question, as lacquer is a solvent for contact cement. It works very well for getting it off of your bench, or clothes, or whatever. Turns out, it works well for getting it to fall off of a speaker cabinet, too. :slap:

Wipe on poly, Waterlox, danish/tung/whatever oil are what you should probably use. I'll defer to some of the really good woodworkers in this forum for other suggestions. They are forgiving, re-applicable, and outright easy. Dare I say hard to screw up? I just do not have call for them because I'm lazy: I am setup to spray lacquer very well, therefore I do. It's really the Cadillac of furniture finishes, in my opinion. And I like it, so there! :wink:

So what does it all mean? For me, it means don't ever, never ever, ever never use contact cement under a veneer again. For you, likely it means contact cement and a wipe on finish will work out terrifically well, as it has for countless other speaker builders on this and other forums. So what are you waiting for? Head to the home depot and the Woodcraft/Rockler store and start making audiodust!

- Eric

Thanks Eric, will try with the paperbacked veener then. Hope it pans out.

Best,
Miha

denverg

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Re: New N3 kit (Neo series)!
« Reply #106 on: 2 Apr 2009, 03:26 pm »
For a fairly low cost prebuilt cabinet option, how about using the PE .75 cubic foot cabinet?  If that is too much volume for the sealed version could it be ported?  It looks to be about the same volume as the AV2.  If possible, it would have a lower f3 than the sealed version and would give three identical  speakers across the front.

EARGASM

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Re: New N3 kit (Neo series)!
« Reply #107 on: 2 Apr 2009, 03:34 pm »
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HT cOz

Re: New N3 kit (Neo series)!
« Reply #108 on: 2 Apr 2009, 04:05 pm »
Well, for one, the PE cabinets are garbage. Imported, thin and they resonate like a drum. I would also think that you would need a considerably different network to facilitate an EBS alignment. At least a foot. The other question is what are you gaining? The cabs are only 8" wide and the tweeter is centered @ 38".It's likely as small as a sealed version on a stand. Plus, you get all the benefits of the TL, which smoke a typical bass reflex port. It's a very special design. But ymmv!


I'll probably get crucified for this one, but the PE MTM .75 cabinet is (Dimensions: 20" H x (8" Front, 4.5" Back) W x 14" D).  Danny's sealed cabinet is 17.5"H X 8" wide. 

So the real difference is 17.5" vs. 20", if mounted vertically will that really make a difference?

The cabinets may be a little large but you could use the space to dampen the resonances.  Add some no-rez and it seems like a nice solution.  Perfect, no way. 

I am planning on doing just this with my AV/3 Neos (Think non-deep cup Neo 3 or something pretty close).  I already have the PE Baffles cut and am just saving up for the boxes.  It will be some time before I can report back, but the one advantage the PE boxes have is that they are inexpensive and pretty good looking.

Danny also said that given stereo subs the sealed version will work just fine, that is my ultimate goal.

Just my 2 cents and with my luck I'm probably wrong about something.    :lol:

Cheers,
Robert

dvenardos

Re: New N3 kit (Neo series)!
« Reply #109 on: 2 Apr 2009, 04:25 pm »
I am just finishing up veneering my av-1rs using paper back veneer and the iron on method:
http://www.oakwoodveneer.com/tips/ironon.html
This is my first time ever veneering something and my first impression is that it is not too bad (rough trimming finished but still need to sand the corners). I think you would be better off getting a bare mdf box from Eric or ElementalDesigns, or better yet, a flat pack from Eric and veneering it yourself than going with a PE box. Just my two cents.

Danny Richie

Re: New N3 kit (Neo series)!
« Reply #110 on: 2 Apr 2009, 04:30 pm »
Robert,

It can be made to work. See my thread here somewhere on fixing the PE boxes.

EARGASM

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Re: New N3 kit (Neo series)!
« Reply #111 on: 2 Apr 2009, 07:07 pm »
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HT cOz

Re: New N3 kit (Neo series)!
« Reply #112 on: 2 Apr 2009, 07:44 pm »
I have a new kit in mind that is pre-veneered with mitered corners. You still have to glue it up and apply finish. The corners are not rounded, but it is a very narrow baffle, about .5" on either side of the woofer. Ridiculously well braced. A proper cabinet for a proper speaker. Price for those will be about $180/pr. in maple, oak, mahogany, etc. Superior in every way to the PE imports. Bit that's just my non-humble opinion.  8)



Options are great!  Are you talking about a TL kit or Stand Mount?

I'm designing/building a new house in 2009/10 and the wife says I get a media room which is awesome.  I bought this used kit with that in mind, the only kicker is the wife won't let these speakers into our current house... So I've got time to kill on this project.

Cheers,
Robert

EARGASM

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Re: New N3 kit (Neo series)!
« Reply #113 on: 2 Apr 2009, 07:54 pm »
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woofersus

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Re: New N3 kit (Neo series)!
« Reply #114 on: 3 Apr 2009, 01:01 pm »
I'm planning on using a separate LFE sub/center cabinet.
Keep your cabinets simple and save $ and time. Matching and getting close to a finish are two very different things. The prob. W/ rosewood is that it is not sustainably harvested. As such, I refuse to contribute its demise

I certainly understand the value of keeping things simple, but these aren't going in a dedicated theater.  They're going in the living room, and my wife doesn't appreciate the look of electronics and speakers dominating the room.  She finds the rs450's look nice enough that she doesn't mind them, but if I go back to big flat boxes again I'll likely have a fight on my hands.  Beyond this, as somebody who can't build cabinets myself, if I'm going to do DIY (or semi-diy as the case may be) I'm going to do it right and build something I'll love for a long time.  It may be naive to think the upgrade bug will never bite again, but I can be fairly sure that if it does, it will be because my budget has increased dramatically.  If that happens soon it's a good problem to have.  That being said, I'm not thinking of trying to do something crazy.  I know that curved sides isn't in the equation without paying a lot of money and ruining the bang-for-your buck quotient.  I've been looking around for designs I think are attractive but relatively simple.  It's surprising how much variation there is even in simple tower designs, given different ways the front baffle is done.

Question: if doing a sealed version rather than the transmission line is there any real difference in performance using a T-M-M arrangement rather than an M-T-M?  I was toying with the idea of a slight slant to the the front, and I suspect it wouldn't make sense if the tweeter weren't on top.  I find that I like the sound of speakers that use such time alignment measures OR sitting with my ears below the tweeter on speakers that don't.  MTM designs tend to do this with a "3D" or multilayered baffle that places the tweeter(s) behind the woofers.

As far as the rosewood goes, I'm not necessarily hard set on that.  In fact, as I understand it the "south american rosewood" that AV123 uses isn't exactly rosewood but a member of the same family with a desirable look and is able to be farm raised.  I guess there are a bunch of different woods that get called rosewood for one reason or another.  The point is there may be something else that looks nice that can be stained similarly that isn't exactly rosewood.  Of course I could go a different direction altogether but I remain concerned about mismatching for any length of time.  My decision as to whether to try to come close to my existing finish or do something different will likely depend on how quickly I think I can transition all 5 speakers.

HT cOz

Re: New N3 kit (Neo series)!
« Reply #115 on: 3 Apr 2009, 01:12 pm »
Woof,

I'm right there with you. I have RS750 in the living room and to my great surprise my wife will not let me touch them or replace them. I guess she secretley likes them.

One option might be to send the RS450 to a woodworker and have them fited with the Neo3 setup.

Those Rockets are a hard act to follow in the looks dept.

EARGASM

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Re: New N3 kit (Neo series)!
« Reply #116 on: 3 Apr 2009, 01:28 pm »
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HT cOz

Re: New N3 kit (Neo series)!
« Reply #117 on: 3 Apr 2009, 01:45 pm »
I'm pretty sure a TMM will not work without a network re-design.

(enter soap-box)

Re: the rosewood. There are several  "versions" of rosewood, yes. I just can't use anything that's not FSC (or similarly) certified. It's the wrong direction. Those speakers that were made in Cali Columbia or China do not have manufacturing regulations regarding labor, OSHA, EPA, etc. They can be entirely manufactired by 10 year olds with their teeth for 10 cents a day, with rain forest habitat-destroying woods using lead-based neurotoxins for glue and finish, with no restriction nor concern for the people that make them nor purchase them.

And we're just glad to have a cheap pair of speakers so the reviewers can say "... for the money, you can't beat 'em..."

I subscribe to and actively promote a different set of standards.

http://www.fsc.org/
http://www.sustainablefurnishings.org/

(exit soap-box)

So hey, when the time comes, there's a sustainable veneer somewhere that will make your wife happy, I'm sure of it.


I don't want to be guilty of taking this thread off topic, so lets not get carried away with this stuff.  I agree with you 100% Eric, but you also have recognize that it is not fair to characterize the building of these speakers in the worst possible terms.

The truth is somewhere in the middle and likely pretty gray.  If we can all agree on that we can avoid a firestorm in this thread.

Cheers,
Robert

Danny Richie

Re: New N3 kit (Neo series)!
« Reply #118 on: 3 Apr 2009, 02:16 pm »
Eric,

Your soap box is treading into a political realm. Let's not go there.

And for what it's worth. The Rosewood used on the Rockets comes from a farm in Russia where they do grow and replenish what they are harvesting.

Woofersus,

Moving the tweeter to the top increases the center to center spacing of the drivers and will force the crossover lower to compensate for the lobbing problems that it will create. The MTM design is a better solution with better end results.

EARGASM

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Re: New N3 kit (Neo series)!
« Reply #119 on: 3 Apr 2009, 03:16 pm »
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« Last Edit: 25 Sep 2009, 03:35 pm by EARGASM »