[tomjtx]

"The Bybee's may well work but could probably be sold for a fraction of the cost."

So could pretty much ever wire, cone, platform, rack, contact enhancer, etc.  That has nothing to do with whether they work or not or whether some consider what they do a worthwhile improvement.

Bryan

Bryan,

I never offered an opinion on whether or not they work.
I do have an averse reaction to snake oil marketing however.

There might be a good business oportunity for someone to build a bybee substitute and sell it at a fraction of the cost.

Now there is a thought: capitalism and hi end audio together

[Dan Banquer]

"Dan the claim behind the Bybees is that they reduce 1/f noise."

Daryl;
Since when Is 1/f Noise an issue in consumer audio electronics? Since when is 1/f noise an issue with the AC lines?
O.K. I guess I'm asking the wrong person here, but people have used the Bybee's for assorted filtering applications over the years to present. My tests should give us some idea of just how well they work in the AC line, and I can also do some other tests at line level audio and between the amp and a dummy speaker load.
If you want any input on the testing, PM me or call me during the evening.
781-592-7862.
      d.b.

[bpape]

Tom.

I'm averse to snake oil too.  High pricing and snake oil are 2 different things though.  Pricing will be what the market will bear.  If the product is garbage, eventually it won't bear much.  I think the pricing on a Mercedes is obcene - but it's not snake oil.

Bryan

[sts9fan]

What are some other products that use quantam physics?  I can't think of any.  Maybe each one has a little Schrödinger's Cat cat in it.... so they are 50% the real deal and 50% bullshit. 

[Occam]

What are some other products that use quantum physics?

Transistors?
Anything that generates electromagnetic radiation, like incandescent light bulbs, LEDs, etc....

Look folks, I think that we're all in agreement that the Bybee 'body of literature' can be charitably characterized as marketing hyperbole, at best. But the same can be said of a power conditioner manufacturer who calls a CMC a balun. If marketing gobbledygook were a crime, our incarcerated population would go up many fold. I can market a preamp based upon NE5532 and plausibly argue that its based upon quantum physics principals/mechanisms. I'm not saying that such a claim adds to potential customer's understanding of the product, just that doing so doesn't qualify as lying, just obfuscation.

I hope everyone has gotten in their licks, but if this thread continues to  , I'll simply lock it until Dan tells me he has results to post from his measurements. I'd move the thread to Audio Central, but TheChairGuy would simply move it back  . Nor do I have great hopes for Dan's measurements resolving anything. If those Bybees are acting in the mega Hz and above region, as typical of ferrites and similar materials, and Dan's arsenal of instrumentation stops at 2 MHz, some are going to argue that the measurements didn't go high enough.

I'm not trying to limit the discussion, just NO characterizations of Mr. Bybee or his customers.

FWIW

PS - I really do want to thank the membership for their restraint, when I initially saw the title of this thread, I was sure someone was going to make a specific suggestion as to 'where to put it'.

[Scott F.]

DB,

I'm not sure about anybody else but since you are doing non-destructive testing on the Bybee, after you get done putting it through it's paces, why not install it in a few different locations and give it a listen? As I remember reading, your amps had a pretty decent filtering capability on the power supply so you may want to try it in (or on) a typical commercial amp/preamp/CD player or wherever you think it may work well. Putting it in a simple power cord should be suffice. 

Personally I think the testing of this unit will only reveal part of the story. Listening to it in action and drawing correlations to the measurements may give us a better picture as a whole of what the unit is actually doing.

Then again, I'd sort of like to see one of those cut in half too. I'd be curious to have the material tested to find out its chemical composition (somebody might get in trouble over that one though).

[JoshK]

Paul,

You are bound and determined to make me have to use an online dictionary, aren't you?  Your vocabulary as of late is on the edge of what my puny brain can recall of what little I learned. 

[Dan Banquer]

DB,

I'm not sure about anybody else but since you are doing non-destructive testing on the Bybee, after you get done putting it through it's paces, why not install it in a few different locations and give it a listen? As I remember reading, your amps had a pretty decent filtering capability on the power supply so you may want to try it in (or on) a typical commercial amp/preamp/CD player or wherever you think it may work well. Putting it in a simple power cord should be suffice. 

Personally I think the testing of this unit will only reveal part of the story. Listening to it in action and drawing correlations to the measurements may give us a better picture as a whole of what the unit is actually doing.

Then again, I'd sort of like to see one of those cut in half too. I'd be curious to have the material tested to find out its chemical composition (somebody might get in trouble over that one though).

Not to worry I have some standard consumer equipment in residence that I will use for part of the test.
and if I think I need a generator that goes above 2 MHz I will do my best to get my hands on one.
                          d.b.
P.S. Has anyone ever put one of these on the bench for test, and either posted or published the data?

[mgalusha]

I have a pair of the "large" Bybee purifiers, these are few years old and not the current slipstream models.

As I was curious I did some testing on one of these last night. I don't have the latest/greatest test gear but it's reasonable. I have a Leader audio signal generator that will output 5Hz - 1MHz, an HP 334 distortion analyzer, a Fluke 8050 DMM and a 20MHz analog scope. I also have a Tenma 72-1025 LCR meter that will test at 100,120,1000 and 10,000 Hz.

With the large Bybee I measured .05 ohms with the Fluke, this is relative mode to eliminate the lead resistance. The Fluke obviously measures DC resistance and reads down to .01R. It was supposed to be calibrated when I purchased it several years ago. It seems quite good.

With the LCR meter I measured the following. These are AC measurements.

Resistance (Impedance) The meter has a resolution of .001 ohm.
Freq/Value
100Hz/.024 ohm
120Hz/.024 ohm
1KHz/.025 ohm
10KHz/.025 ohm

Inductance - I measured 0 at all frequencies. The meter has a resolution of .1uH.

I placed the Bybee in series between the signal generator and the distortion analyzer. The analyzer will read .002% THD accurately and you can estimate .001% when it's between the meter marks. I could measure no change in THD using a sine wave with the Bybee in circuit or bypassed. I tried at 1KHz, 100KHz and 1MHz.

I then connected the Bybee between the generator and the scope and inspected the square wave response. I could see no change when in circuit or bypassed.

That's about the limit of what I can test. That said, I do have some Bybee's in my equipment and depending on where they are used the do cause a change, usually for the good but not always. I have two BPT-2.5 Ultra balanced power units, they are identical with the exception of a pair of large Bybee's between the secondaries and the outlets. Equipment does not sound the same when switching between units. Obviously this isn't a quick AB test but I've had other folks listen and swapped the equipment between them without telling them and they too were able to pick between them.

Nothing I can measure says they should make a difference but they do and I'm not about to join the fray other than this post. I will say that I haven't spent a ton of cash on these as most of them were acquired in trade for services rendered although that is in effect paying for them.

Mike

[Dan Banquer]

Thanks for the post & info Mike. I'll keep it mind.
                 d.b.

[Dan Banquer]

I have made some initial measurements on the Bybee unit. Noting Mike's results where similar to mine I decided to put a resistor in series with the Bybee unit and measure the frequency response across the Bybee using a scope probe across it. I observed that the amplitude across the Bybee unit went higher as the frequency increased. I noted no peaking below 2 MHz and the increase in amplitude appears to be rather linear. I did some rough calculations on the voltage drop across the resistor vs the Bybee and I am roughly estimating that the Bybee unit is approximately a 0.05 microhenry inductor. I will bring this to work where I have access to a pretty decent LCR meter and hopefully give you guys something more definitive in the near future.
   All for now;
                d.b.

[serengetiplains]

Large Bybees are:

a 25W 0.025 ohm resistor

encased in a ceramic tube

wrapped in ERS paper

wrapped in plastic

sealed with copper end tubes.

They measure like a resistor and are a resistor.

[jon_010101]

Large Bybees are:
...encased in a ceramic tube...

I am still rather dissapointed that they aren't even wrapped in bacon, er, ferrite.   

[JoshK]

I have made some initial measurements on the Bybee unit. Noting Mike's results where similar to mine I decided to put a resistor in series with the Bybee unit and measure the frequency response across the Bybee using a scope probe across it. I observed that the amplitude across the Bybee unit went higher as the frequency increased. I noted no peaking below 2 MHz and the increase in amplitude appears to be rather linear. I did some rough calculations on the voltage drop across the resistor vs the Bybee and I am roughly estimating that the Bybee unit is approximately a 0.05 microhenry inductor. I will bring this to work where I have access to a pretty decent LCR meter and hopefully give you guys something more definitive in the near future.
   All for now;
                d.b.

umm...if fr is rising with freq, wouldn't this be like a cap in series or an inductor in parrallel/

[serengetiplains]

Josh, the resistor is a cheap, inductive variety.  That might answer your question.

[Dan Banquer]

Josh; If you remember the formulas for capacitance and inductance you will note that the impedance decreases for a capacitor as the frequency increases, and the impedance increases for an inductor as frequency increases. The unit in question has a rising impedance as frequency increases and giving more of a voltage drop across it as frequency increases.
Measurements appear to indicate the unit in test is a small amount of inductance.
           d.b.

[Dan Banquer]

The following is data at different frequencies for the Bybee unit.

1. 100Hz: 0.3 microhenries, .027 ohms
2. 120Hz: 0.3 microhenries, .027 ohms
3. 1KHz:  0.3 microhenries, .027 ohms
4. 10KHz: 0.29 microhenries, .029 ohms
5. 100KHz, 0.28 microhenries, .035 ohms.

It appears the serengetiplains is correct. The unit appears to be an inductively wound .027(.025?) ohm resistor.
Hope this helps, I will post more on this later.
               d.b.

[ctviggen]

DB, could you perform a transient analysis, like perhaps square wave analysis?  I'm interested as in why so many people think these improve the sound.  For instance, see:

http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/bybee/bybee-review-6moons.htm
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/duvall06.htm
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue12/bybee.htm

At those small impedances (resistance and inductance), I can't see how it would have much if any effect. 

[Dan Banquer]

DB, could you perform a transient analysis, like perhaps square wave analysis?  I'm interested as in why so many people think these improve the sound.  For instance, see:

http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/bybee/bybee-review-6moons.htm
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/duvall06.htm
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue12/bybee.htm

At those small impedances (resistance and inductance), I can't see how it would have much if any effect. 

Well Bob; Mike Galusha has already done this, but I will repeat this test sometime this weekend.
As far as the reviews are concerned, try and remember that Positive Feedback gave the Clever Little Clock a design award. As to Soundstage, and just about everyone else,  I wonder how these magazines would respond to the data I have just taken.
I hope every DIY person reading this thread takes notice and realizes the frailty of the human condition. I'm no exception, I've been suckered a few times myself. If anything, it should teach us that there is no substitute for measurement, especially when it comes to our hard earned dollars.
 It is trivia for most people here to wind a small choke either around a core, or use a wooden dowel for the initial winding and then remove the dowel for an air core choke. You can then make a mold if you like and insert your choke in potting compound if you so desire.
Dollars to Donuts, the "generic Bybee filter" I have just outlined will probably work just as well as the original.
Anyone up for a little experimentation? Got some 14 or 16 gauge magnet wire laying around? Your not going to need much for one or two turns.

          d.b.

[ctviggen]

Sorry, I didn't see Mike's data.  So, it's basically a very expensive sham.  I do note that others here on the board say that bybees work well, so those links just posted were for reference only.  Now, I think that with many things like this, one could be convinced to hear something that's not actually there.  But under the proper conditions (two modified SBs, one with bybee and one without, and the ability to switch between the two), I think one could verify the analytic tests with subjective tests.  If the subjective tests are different, then one would have to ascertain why.