[rajacat]

So do you believe that the SOTA of testing equipment has reached its zenith? There is nothing more to learn in science? That is really flat earth thinking!

And putting words in another's mouth isn't any kind of thinking.

se

Just in case you didn't notice, my last post was put forth as a question, albeit concluded with a rhetorical comment.

Raj

[Steve Eddy]

Just in case you didn't notice, my last post was put forth as a question, albeit concluded with a rhetorical comment.

Ok, fair 'nuff.

So then could you at least explain what the question had to do with what I had said?

se

[atomic dog]

My listening experience is immeasurably enhanced by invisible flying monkeys, and I'll do you a big favor and sell you invisible bananas (Paypal accepted) to attract them.

Those dullards in science have not caught up with me.  They have not yet grasped the nonlinear quantum effects by which they work.  And test equipment -- I laugh, ha ha ha!  No test equipment has yet been devised that can catch my devious nonlinear quantum bridge-and-tunneling superfast flying audio monkeys.

[Double Ugly]

My listening experience is immeasurably enhanced by invisible flying monkeys, and I'll do you a big favor and sell you invisible bananas (Paypal accepted) to attract them.

Have you considered sending the invisible bananas on an AC audition tour so the rest of us might have an opportunity for "immeasurably enhanced" listening experiences?

[rajacat]

Smoke those bananas!

[Double Ugly]

A no-lose proposition, eh raj?   

[rajacat]

A very cheap and effective tweak! aa

[Steve]

Pretty amazing spec for a non-polar electrolytic cap. 

At the link, examine figure 7, and notice the very very poor specs of most electrolytic caps, different brands. All are showing their inductance under 10khz, and some, for amplifiers, below 1khz. One shows effects at around 300hz. Is yours a special cap(?), and what brand.

http://waltjung.org/PDFs/Picking_Capacitors_1.pdf

Cheers.


here is a measurement I took of a non-polar electrolytic cap and a polypropylene cap...




Both capacitors and speaker wires have smooth transfer functions anywhere near the audio band and time domain charts are unneccessary unless you are trying to decieve someone (capacitor and wire ads routinely use deceptive time domain charts and do not show frequency domain charts which would reveal the truth immediately).

The deception takes place because the consumer is unaware that the chart is showing effects that are far beyond the frequency range they want to evaluate.

Snake oil salesmen often help the deception along by providing information like "this is a 10khz square wave" or holding back information like the time and amplitude markings for their chart.

The 10khz square wave statement gets the unwitting thinking they are looking at 10khz energy when their attention might be directed to 1Mhz anomalies.

Holding back the time and amplitude scale indicators masks the fact that what is being shown is insignifigant or out of band or both.

Again, IF THE TRANSFER FUNCTION OF THE DEVICE IS SIMPLE/SMOOTH THERE IS NO NEED FOR TIME DOMAIN ANALYSIS.

The other issue with time domain or oscilloscope type charts is that your hearing does not function in that manner and it is easy give people the idea that certain things might be important which your ears would not be able to resolve.

Your ears have multiple filters at different frequencies like an RTA they do not measure air pressure from instant to instant like if you connected a microphone to an oscilloscope.

Here is an illistration I calculated showing how your ears would percieve a square wave...



You should be getting the idea here that a number of anomalies that might appear signifigant on an oscilloscope type chart would never appear on a time/spectrograph type chart which mimics the operation of your ears.

Also you should be able to see why frequency response is THE most important measurement in audio systems (not the only important one just the most important).






[/quote]

[Dan Banquer]

Gentleman:
   This was a thread about Bybee purifiers, filters, resistors etc. etc. From reading that last few pages we are now onto capacitors. I think if you wish to talk about capacitors, please start a new thread, or maybe the moderator can move that part of the thread and re-title it.
       d.b.

[ctviggen]

You have to understand, though, that the time-domain/frequency domain transfer functions only work for linear devices.  Any non-linearity will not be represented in the transfer functions.  If the bybee would have some type of non-linearity (and I'm not saying that it does), then you simply have to take data in both domains.  Taking data in one domain and saying that the data therefore describes everything in the othe domain is, for non-linear devices, wrong.

[captain]

I never thought a simple question would turn up so much information. Any way if any body's selling after what they have read, let me know .

[Dan Banquer]

I never thought a simple question would turn up so much information. Any way if any body's selling after what they have read, let me know.

Is that the only reason you started this thread?
           d.b.

[jon_010101]

I never thought a simple question would turn up so much information. Any way if any body's selling after what they have read, let me know.

I have to say -- after hearing that the ceramic is actually coated with something neat, I'm almost tempted to buy a pair

[captain]

I never thought a simple question would turn up so much information. Any way if any body's selling after what they have read, let me know.

Is that the only reason you started this thread?
           d.b.

Chill out  what do you think

[JoshK]

Gentleman:
   This was a thread about Bybee purifiers, filters, resistors etc. etc. From reading that last few pages we are now onto capacitors. I think if you wish to talk about capacitors, please start a new thread, or maybe the moderator can move that part of the thread and re-title it.
       d.b.

Gentlemen,
Let's all listen to Dan's advice here.  If you more informative things to add about bybee's or more technical related questions, please continue.  Let's keep the childish pot shots, snake-oil accusations or chest beating technical rants out of this. 

[sts9fan]

I have access to GC and GC-MS instruments.  As well as a kickass MALDI-TOF.  Unfortuately I don't really have much experience with inorganics and I would have to figure out how to prep a sample from one of these jobbys. 

[Daryl]

You have to understand, though, that the time-domain/frequency domain transfer functions only work for linear devices.  Any non-linearity will not be represented in the transfer functions.  If the bybee would have some type of non-linearity (and I'm not saying that it does), then you simply have to take data in both domains.  Taking data in one domain and saying that the data therefore describes everything in the othe domain is, for non-linear devices, wrong.

Hi ctviggen,

I'm not saying a devices linear transfer function can fully describe it's characteristics.

I was just dispelling the myth that impulse/step/square response is different than frequency response (something most are unaware of) because the notion of square wave response has come up a couple of times and Dan has already measured it's frequency response and found it to be smooth.

As I said before you also have a devices non-linear and noise characteristics to consider and it is mathematicly impossible to have a signal error that does not fall into one of the three categories.

Most importantly though people keep forgeting that the device does not connect to the system anywhere earlier or later in the signal chain and therefore it cannot know what errors have been committed before it or will be commited after it so it could not correct or 'purify' the signal.

It can only alter the signal, but the goal is to reproduce the signal as closely as possible.

Also, remember that the device has an extremely low impedance and will have precious little effect upon most circuits even if it does have a degree of non-linearity.

It is primarily a power resistor and I would guess it's non-linearity would challenge the resolution of many instruments to measure it.

At any rate using it in a 20kohm circuit would dilute it's non-linearity about 80,000 to 1.

Using it in a 4ohm circuit would dilute it's non-linearity about 16 to 1.

[Daryl]

Pretty amazing spec for a non-polar electrolytic cap. 

At the link, examine figure 7, and notice the very very poor specs of most electrolytic caps, different brands. All are showing their inductance under 10khz, and some, for amplifiers, below 1khz. One shows effects at around 300hz. Is yours a special cap(?), and what brand.

http://waltjung.org/PDFs/Picking_Capacitors_1.pdf

Cheers.

Hi Steve,

It's just an inexpensive Bennic from Madisound and over 15 years old.

I bought a mouse today for my measurement computer and I will fire it up when I get the time.

The capacitors in that article were power supply caps and not non-polars.

I will measure some power supply capacitors when I can and start a new thread.

I would not recommend that article at all.

[Steve]

Pretty amazing spec for a non-polar electrolytic cap. 

At the link, examine figure 7, and notice the very very poor specs of most electrolytic caps, different brands. All are showing their inductance under 10khz, and some, for amplifiers, below 1khz. One shows effects at around 300hz. Is yours a special cap(?), and what brand.

http://waltjung.org/PDFs/Picking_Capacitors_1.pdf

Cheers.

Hi Steve,

"It's just an inexpensive Bennic from Madisound and over 15 years old."

>>Any ideas why it measures radically different than the other, well known brands?

I bought a mouse today for my measurement computer and I will fire it up when I get the time.

The capacitors in that article were power supply caps and not non-polars."

>>Bipolars are essentially two electrolytics back to back, so I fail to see your point. The DA should be much higher with a NP than polar.

"I would not recommend that article at all."

>>Are you kidding? Wow. Tell that to Dr. Karl Weber, a chemist, who discusses the subject and what happens at the molecular level. His explanation almost, if not perfectly, correlates to the sound we appear to be contributing to the insulation material in a capacitor.
http://www.jacmusic.com/auricap/htm/on_capacitor_dielectric_material.htm

The RCA Radiotron designers handbook (26 engineers) also has a nice description of different capacitors, and their problems and superiority. And it was written some 40-60 years ago. So the knowledge is not new.

>>Now back to the regularly scheduled program. If the bybee's main claim is lower noise, why not measure to see if it performs as advertised? Everything appears to have been measured except the claim that the bybee is marketed as.

[avahifi]

So does this, almost as much as woman driver awards.