[Daryl]

Now back to the regularly scheduled program. If the bybee's main claim is lower noise, why not measure to see if it performs as advertised? Everything appears to have been measured except the claim that the bybee is marketed as.

That's right.

Not shure if you read a few posts ago where I suggested just that.

Measureing a system with and without the Bybee showing a spectrum analysis and feeding it 1khz tone would show the noise floor as well as modulation noise, self noise and harmonics (any change could be observed easily).

I believe the reason is probably because no one who is willing to measure one and post the results has an Audio Precision system (or equivilant) at their disposal.

P.S. The capacitor stuff can wait for another thread.

[Steve Eddy]

Now back to the regularly scheduled program. If the bybee's main claim is lower noise, why not measure to see if it performs as advertised? Everything appears to have been measured except the claim that the bybee is marketed as.

Actually the more fundamental claim made by Bybee about the Bybees is that they are room temperature superconductors. Don't need any exotic test gear to put that claim to the test.

se

[Dan Banquer]

Now back to the regularly scheduled program. If the bybee's main claim is lower noise, why not measure to see if it performs as advertised? Everything appears to have been measured except the claim that the bybee is marketed as.

Actually the more fundamental claim made by Bybee about the Bybees is that they are room temperature superconductors. Don't need any exotic test gear to put that claim to the test.

se

Well, the LCR meter put the room temperature superconductor one to rest.
                       d.b.

[Scott F.]

I believe the reason is probably because no one who is willing to measure one and post the results has an Audio Precision system (or equivilant) at their disposal.

Yet we have 15 pages of pontification about how a Bybee is voodoo. 

[Dan Banquer]

This should take of the Microwave attenuation claim.
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/143264.html
              d.b.

[Steve]

I see that previous post and agree. It needs to be measured as well as more investigation of the Bybee.

Agree also that the capacitor discussion is put on hold.

Take care Daryl and have a nice evening.

--------------

ScottF. Yes, it seems the thread hasn't accomplished much, if anything, to resolve the matter.

Now back to the regularly scheduled program. If the bybee's main claim is lower noise, why not measure to see if it performs as advertised? Everything appears to have been measured except the claim that the bybee is marketed as.

That's right.

Not shure if you read a few posts ago where I suggested just that.

Measureing a system with and without the Bybee showing a spectrum analysis and feeding it 1khz tone would show the noise floor as well as modulation noise, self noise and harmonics (any change could be observed easily).

I believe the reason is probably because no one who is willing to measure one and post the results has an Audio Precision system (or equivilant) at their disposal.

P.S. The capacitor stuff can wait for another thread.

[Steve Eddy]

I see that previous post and agree. It needs to be measured as well as more investigation of the Bybee.

Well, when someone's telling you they're selling you a room temperature supercondcutor, how much investigation does it require beyond a VOM?

se

[rajacat]

Maybe some blind A/B testing might help? Put the lab. measurements aside and use a group of ears to determine if it improves SQ. If it is so overpriced and just a common electrical part let's see someone duplicate it.

Raj

[Dan Banquer]

Maybe some blind A/B testing might help? Put the lab. measurements aside and use a group of ears to determine if it improves SQ. If it is so overpriced and just a common electrical part let's see someone duplicate it.

Raj

I believe earlier in this thread I asked folks to wind a couple of turns of wire for a reasonable duplication of the inductance of the Bybee Unit. Being that this is a lab forum, that's really not too much too ask to a bunch of DIY people. Now if you think there's more than that going on you may wish to review some of the theory that's been presented here, and the data from the LCR meter.
                d.b.

[rajacat]

Maybe some blind A/B testing might help? Put the lab. measurements aside and use a group of ears to determine if it improves SQ. If it is so overpriced and just a common electrical part let's see someone duplicate it.

Raj

I believe earlier in this thread I asked folks to wind a couple of turns of wire for a reasonable duplication of the inductance of the Bybee Unit. Being that this is a lab forum, that's really not too much too ask to a bunch of DIY people. Now if you think there's more than that going on you may wish to review some of the theory that's been presented here, and the data from the LCR meter.
                d.b.

I'm not questioning what lab data you have but it seems clear that it is not definitive. I'm a skeptic too and when I had my SB modded, I did not go for the Bybee option.

Raj

[Steve]

Here is an explanation, and claim I read about the Bybees.
http://www.partsconnexion.com/audiogon_pix/WEBPAGES/bybee_purifiers.htm

I would not necessarily count the explanation fabrication Steve. Around 1992, from memory, it was determined that an electron could actually be made to disappear on one corner of a lattice structure, and reappear on another part of the lattice structure. It was determined that the row of electrons was not shifting, but the electron was actually disappearing and reappearing on the other side. I wish I had the article. So cool, and also well beyond the public's knowledge.

From my recollection, top research is generally considered 20 years or more ahead of public knowledge.

All I am suggesting, Steve, is that we should be careful and tread cautiously. Pet rocks are another matter.

Have a nice evening Steve and go big 10.

I see that previous post and agree. It needs to be measured as well as more investigation of the Bybee.

Well, when someone's telling you they're selling you a room temperature supercondcutor, how much investigation does it require beyond a VOM?

se

[Steve Eddy]

Here is an explanation, and claim I read about the Bybees.
http://www.partsconnexion.com/audiogon_pix/WEBPAGES/bybee_purifiers.htm

I would not necessarily count the explanation fabrication Steve.

I've never said the explanation, in and of itself, is a fabrication. It's not. The problem with the explanation is that it has absolutely nothing to do with what Bybee is selling.

The explanation is simply a regurgitation of the BCS theory of superconductivity (the C in BCS is for Leon Copper, which is where the term "Cooper pairs" comes from). But Bybees are not superconductive by any stretch of the imagination and trivially demonstrably so.

Around 1992, from memory, it was determined that an electron could actually be made to disappear on one corner of a lattice structure, and reappear on another part of the lattice structure. It was determined that the row of electrons was not shifting, but the electron was actually disappearing and reappearing on the other side. I wish I had the article. So cool, and also well beyond the public's knowledge.

Sounds like you're talking about quantum tunneling.

From my recollection, top research is generally considered 20 years or more ahead of public knowledge.

I don't agree with that, but suffice to say the BCS theory of superconductivity which Bybee has been regurgitating is 50 years old.

All I am suggesting, Steve, is that we should be careful and tread cautiously.

I've been reading carefully since Bybee put up his first website, which claimed (among other things) that the electrons in your audio equipment were moving at nearly the speed of light. .

Pet rocks are another matter.

I don't know that they necessarily are in this case.

Have a nice evening Steve and go big 10.

Thanks. Same to you!

se

[Daygloworange]

Have a nice evening Steve and go big 10.

Is that kinda like " Hang Ten" ? 

Cheers

[Steve Eddy]

Have a nice evening Steve and go big 10.

Is that kinda like " Hang Ten" ? 

No, more like Big 10 



By the way, Steve, thanks for that link. It has the text from one of Bybee's older websites which is good for illustrating the kind of smoke that's being blown by Bybee (the current website uses the same basic theme, but is phrased differently).

Thermal noise in electronic equipment is typically created by the excitation of phonons, which are resonances in conductors caused by the movement of electrons through the quantum well. Phonons are a type of noise in themselves; they are caused by a certain class of electrons colliding with the crystal lattice of conductors (silver, copper, etc.) through which they are being transmitted.

More or less true. But the best bullshit often exploits elements of truth in an attempt to lend some credibility to it.

Such phonons travel, not at the speed of light, but of sound, and therefore are instantly out of phase with the signal.

Well, it's noise, so it's never really in phase with the signal to begin with. Pretty nonsensical.

Shot noise, which is generated by the operation of transistors, is similar in nature to thermal or white noise. Low-frequency (1/f) noise is always present, and increases as an inverse power of the frequency.

Again, more or less true.

Quantum physicists have learned that electrons have an intrinsic angular characteristic expressed in terms of spin (either up or down), which describes their orbital behavior around the nucleus of an atom. When subjected to Bybee’s high-temperature near-superconductive material, electrons tend to join in a beneficial manner, increasing the velocity of propagation (VP) by forming what are known as Cooper’s Pairs (one spin-up electron joined with a spin-down).

And here Bybee brings the BCS theory into the picture, and claims that the material in the Bybees is "high-temperature near-superconductive." This is just plain rubbish. It's not even very conductive let alone near-superconductive. It uses a 0.02 ohm resistor and measures about 0.02 ohms. Which means the bloody resistor is more conductive than the material Bybee is claiming to be "near-superconductive."

Coopers’ Pairs have the unique ability to tunnel through the crystal lattice of the conductor (such as a copper wire) essentially unimpeded, therefore eliminating virtually all quantum noise phenomena.

Well yeah, if you had a superconductor in its superconductive state (i.e. below its critical temperature, which the current record holder is around -200 degrees F), and therefore no resistance, the superconductor wouldn't produce any noise. But that's the best that can be said. It will still pass any noise coming from upstream and noise will simply be added downstream of the superconductor. It can't remove any noise already existing in the system. And even if it did, it couldn't discriminate between noise and signal so your signal to noise ratio wouldn't change.

To understand this effect, imagine a football game in which the player receiving the kick off could run straight down field to the goal line without being touched by any defenders.

Go Big 10!

Bybee Technologies has developed devices fabricated from ceramics doped with oxides of rare-earth metals such as zirconium and neodymium.

Whoop de doo. Even if this were true, the Bybees are still neither superconductive nor near-superconductive. At least not at the temperatures they're used at.

They achieve a VP of 92% of the speed of light, which is far higher than VPs of common conductors, which typically range from 50 to 70% of the speed of light.

VP will be dependent on the geometry of the line and the permeability and permittivity of the medium the electromagnetic wave is propagating through.

But even if true, so what? VP in and of itself is irrelevant. Doesn't matter if VP is 92% the speed of light or 92% the speed of an unladen swallow (European or African) as long as all frequencies arrive at the same time.

In addition to being near-superconductive...

Which they're not...

...Bybee Quantum Purifiers are electrically passive and stable in any circuit.

Amazin'.

They induce no phase shift whatsoever, and are totally non-reactive—meaning there is no reactance between capacitance and inductance.

Well, non-reactive doesn't mean there's no reactance between capacitance and inductance, it means there's no reactance, i.e. capacitance and inductance. Admittedly a bit of a nit.

These qualities are beneficial in numerous ways. When placed between an amplifier’s power transformer and diode bridge, for example, the Quantum Purifier eliminates undesirable impedance mismatches.

Interesting. The thing is claimed to be near-superconductive and non-reactive, yet it eliminates impedance mismatches. Well, I guess if your impedance mismatch was 0.02 ohms... 

In an amplifier-to-speaker connection, the absence of reactance creates an optimal signal transfer and presents an easier load to the amplifier.

I like this one. The line of reasoning here seems to be that because the Bybee has no reactance, it somehow eliminates the ractance of the loudspeaker. What was that? The Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal that was so daft it believed if you couldn't see it, it couldn't see you? Seems to be the same sort of "logic" here.

Anyway, you get the picture.

se

[Daryl]

I liked the link myself.

I think he gives Tom Clancy a run for his money.

All in all brilliant.

Takes the 'C' right out of BCS theory.

[Steve Eddy]

I liked the link myself.

I think he gives Tom Clancy a run for his money.

All in all brilliant.

Takes the 'C' right out of BCS theory.

Hehehe.

Actually I had some correspondence with "S" about the Bybees some years back ("C" is dead and I wasn't able to find a contact for "B"). He found it all rather... amusing. 

se

[Steve]

Of all that you stated Steve, there are a couple of conclusions, plus some comments I can make.

1. I don't think either of us has the expertise to come to any conclusions, unless you have some degree in the field.

2. Time has not stood still these past 50 years, or even 10 years. I am sure much has been learned. If either of us thinks we know all there is, we are sadly mistaken.

3. Some of the things he states do seem weird. Still, I wouldn't go off the deep end.

Is there anyway, someone can get several real experts to examine bybee's theories and product? They would be more qualified than any of us.

I find it hard to believe one would ruin his reputation on selling a few filters if one has such credentials with the military.

------

"Sounds like you're talking about quantum tunneling."

>>I don't think so. I don't recall any mention of wave travel, or particle tunneling through the lattice. For it to travel through, they would have been able to detect changes in the lattice, which I don't recall them stating. But I suppose it could be possible.

"I don't agree with that, but suffice to say the BCS theory of superconductivity which Bybee has been regurgitating is 50 years old."

>>Again, has time stood still, with no advancements? I can assure you science is continuing and we don't have a clue what has been developed and learned the past 10 years.

>>Make of it what you will. But if he has developed something, and it is used in sonar, then we don't know what he has developed.

>>Here are some of the materials Bybee is using, from the link.
 
"Bybee Technologies has developed devices fabricated from ceramics doped with oxides of rare-earth metals such as zirconium and neodymium.

So apparently he has designed something more than a simple resistor. The question still remains, does it reduce noise?

Crap, Big 10 loses.

----

ps. "Such phonons travel, not at the speed of light, but of sound, and therefore are instantly out of phase with the signal.

Well, it's noise, so it's never really in phase with the signal to begin with. Pretty nonsensical."

>>"But even if true, so what? VP in and of itself is irrelevant. Doesn't matter if VP is 92% the speed of light or 92% the speed of an unladen swallow (European or African) as long as all frequencies arrive at the same time."

>>Steve, I really don't think you understand what the meaning is, what he is really saying. But that is for Bybee to relate, not me.   

[Steve Eddy]

Of all that you stated Steve, there are a couple of conclusions, plus some comments I can make.

Ok.

1. I don't think either of us has the expertise to come to any conclusions, unless you have some degree in the field.

No, I haven't a degree in the field. But I don't see how having a degree makes what I've said inherently any more or less true. This is a logical fallacy known as appeal to authority.

2. Time has not stood still these past 50 years, or even 10 years. I am sure much has been learned. If either of us thinks we know all there is, we are sadly mistaken.

I never claimed to know all there is. And it was Bybee who invoked a 50 year old theory, not me.

But that's all rather beside the point. It doesn't matter if the superconductor theory is 50 years old, or 10 years old, or just yesterday. We know that the Bybees are not superconductive. We know that the Bybees are not "near-superconductive." We know that the Bybees aren't even any more conductive than the resistor that makes up a substantial portion of the thing.

So to invoke any theory of superconductivity for something that's a better insulator than it is a conductor is just flummery.

3. Some of the things he states do seem weird. Still, I wouldn't go off the deep end.

It's Bybee who's off the deep end.

Is there anyway, someone can get several real experts to examine bybee's theories and product? They would be more qualified than any of us.

As I said in a previous post, I did speak about this some years ago with John Schreiffer, the "S" in the BCS theory (who not only has a degree but a Nobel Prize if those sorts of things impress you) and as I said, he was... amused. I also have a friend who works at Brookhaven National Laboratory with some of the best minds in the country with regard to superconductivity and particle physics. He's run this stuff past them and they too were... amused.

I don't think so. I don't recall any mention of wave travel, or particle tunneling through the lattice. For it to travel through, they would have been able to detect changes in the lattice, which I don't recall them stating. But I suppose it could be possible.

Dunno. Could be you're thinking more in classical terms instead of the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics. If you find what it is you're talking about though, lemme know.

Again, has time stood still, with no advancements? I can assure you science is continuing and we don't have a clue what has been developed and learned the past 10 years.

But again as I explained above the Bybees aren't any sort of superconductor.

Make of it what you will. But if he has developed something, and it is used in sonar, then we don't know what he has developed.

Key word being "if," which is quite a stupendously large one in my opinion.

Here are some of the materials Bybee is using, from the link.
 
"Bybee Technologies has developed devices fabricated from ceramics doped with oxides of rare-earth metals such as zirconium and neodymium.

Yes. Type II superconductors (which the BCS theory set out to explain) are typically made from alloys of various metallic oxides in ceramic form. However their superconductive behavior is only exhibited at temperatures very near or below their critical temperatures. Above that and they haven't any particularly special electrical characteristics and aren't very good electrical conductors at all.

So apparently he has designed something more than a simple resistor. The question still remains, does it reduce noise?

Sure, it's a bit more than a simple resistor. But it's not any kind of superconductor at any temperature it will be used at in an audio system. An having the resistance of the resistor, it will in fact produce noise.

Crap, Big 10 loses.

That's ok. I'm in California. 

se

[tomjtx]

There are at least 2 physicists on the slim forums who consider the bybee claims "amusing" (as SE so generously puts it)

Maybe we can get them to drop in over here.

[Dan Banquer]

If you can get them to stop in at Tweaker's Asylum, I think they would have a good laugh or three.
                       d.b.