[pjchappy]

As far as the picture of the RM30. . .I'm sure THIS is the reason for that:

RM30s came w/ a graphite woofer that fit the cut-out shown.

The person than upgraded to the Megawoofer which has a different fit.  THEREFORE, since the Megawoofer's flange is different, it is not going to fit perfectly into the old cut-out.

p

[ctviggen]

I'm up for a speaker showdown.  Just let the participants be people who have never heard of Danny or VMPS.  My girlfriend (plays piano) and her girlfriend (loves music and has an obscene CD collection) would be impartial.  So, send me the modded and unmodded speakers.  

If Danny does it, Brian does it, or anyone from either camp does it, then I personally wouldn't trust the results.

[jackman]

I'm up for a speaker showdown. Just let the participants be people who have never heard of Danny or VMPS. My girlfriend (plays piano) and her girlfriend (loves music and has an obscene CD collection) would be impartial. So, send me the modded and unmodded speakers.

If Danny does it, Brian does it, or anyone from either camp does it, then I personally wouldn't trust the results.

Your logic may be okay but logistically, it would be difficult to pull this off.  I say, make the evaluation a blind "A/B".  Someone could set up both speakers on the same system with the same program material and people would vote on paper blindly.  No measurements, no hype, no coaching, no BS!  Let the best speaker win.  There may not be a clearcut winner but if Danny's mods are as bad as Brian states, the original design should win hands-down.  I wish I could be there.

J

J

[pjchappy]

I've never heard either of the speakers in question.

If Brian and Danny send me a pair of a 626s and Diluceos, I will gladly listen to them.  I will then give a 'review' of both speakers.  Then, I will keep both speakers. . .that will be my fee for the 'review.'

Deal?  

p

[DFaulds]

pjchappy -- you're probably right about the RM30.  Of course, that doesn't explain why for the cost of the upgrade there is not some type of adaptor provided so the end result is at least reasonably attractive, because that looks really tacky.  When Shahinian Acoustics upgrdaes their old Obelisks, they re-route the cabinet so that it still has a top flight appearance.  Pride of workmanship does say a lot about a manufacturer.

[pjchappy]

Irrelevant. . .  

p

[Brian Cheney]

I'll answer part of jackman's questions.  Danny is making measurements on his equipment, not mine.  His results apply to him only.  The parts left the factory trimmed to exact tolerance.  You can measure the same cap three times on some equipment and get three slightly different results.

As for the binding posts I selected them personally as the best I have found over the years.  They are solid brass/gold plated, with 1/4" shafts, solid metal nut that can be tightened with a nut driver (fingertight is not a good contact and BP's that only give you that option are rejects for me).  There is no hole through the center of the shaft (for the "bare wire" no one uses) which weakens the shaft and causes breakage, a bear to repair.

The 626R cabinets are not now, nor have they ever been, shoddy or poorly made.  It is to Danny's great discredit that he makes such claims.
However, if any owner wishes to exchange old 626R cabinets for new mls types they can do so by paying roundtrip freight plus any upcharge for deluxe finishes.  Is that good enough for you?

As for the woofer holes on the RM30, the new Megawoofers are round and slightly larger than the graphite pincushion basket drivers.  They are a very tight fit since the cabinet is so narrow.  We left the "wings" on the cutout so we can remove the Megawoofers for repair without damaging the finish.  Up to now, three months in, no complaints from owners.  

If you can't hear the difference between a full-blast ribbon tweeter and one you can adjust to taste, or an out-of-phase midrange and one in correct relative polarity, your ears need training.  The idea of making such "improvements" is pure textbook design typical of neophytes and simply makes my designer's blood boil.

[ctviggen]

I was thinking that one person would get the two sets of speakers and place dots (i.e., colored tape) on them.  Only this person would know which speaker is which.  This person does nothing else.  He/She gives the speakers to someone (I'll also volunteer to keep speakers), who then inserts into system.  Person B does nothing but insert speakers into system (with rudimentary level matching?) and change CDs. The listeners decides which speaker is best.  Once the results are tallied, then the original person, Person A, states which set of speakers is Danny's and which is Brian's.

[Hantra]

My in room response looks like this:

_______________________________________ ____________

Is it buttered....how bout a drink.

Dig your hand on in here little buddy!     I'm just glad not to be in the middle for a change.  It's more enjoyable that way.  

Jackman, the guy said He will not repair ANY modded speakers in, OR out of warranty.  

[EProvenzano]

The 626R cabinets are not now, nor have they ever been, shoddy or poorly made.

 
Pictures tell a thousand words

[audiochef]

THis may be true , but VMPSs still sounds better than any prissy little speaker out there.

[ooheadsoo]

But if you measure the results of speaker response in a room, what does it tell you?  For me, nothing.  I measured my Linn system in a room in my old house and the bass was down some obscene amount, like 15db at 30Hz.  I rearranged everything and remeasured and gained 10db at 30 Hz.  Moreover, my current room has a large hump at about 160 Hz (same system, same everything but room).  It's very hard to take measurements that aren't subjected to these room interactions.  The only thing you could do is take two ...

If you scroll down to the bottom of this article, you can see how measurements are taken these days to eliminate room effects: http://ellisaudio.com/whydiy.htm

[doug s.]

Thanks for quoting specs for the Aurum Cantus tweeter.  Unfortunately we don't use it.  I assure you our tweeter will fail in the manner described if used with a 3.5kHz crossover, as you are about to find out.  

We will return to you freight collect and unrepaired any VMPS speaker that has been modded by others.

this info is good to know.  the vmps' are still on my short-list for future upgrade.  the idea that they had the same tweet as what's used in the diluceo & criterion had eliminated them from this short-list.  i have auditioned both of those speakers and tho they're certainly enjoyable, i couldn't live with either on a long-term basis - they're yust too soft and lacking in detail for my taste.  three tweeters i know i prefer, for a point of reference, are the focal titanium inverted domes, the hi-vi research ribbons, & the proac tweeters, especially the iteration used in their latest reference-8 signatures, d25, etc...

doug s.

[ctviggen]

That link shows ONE reflection.  In my room, there's a ceiling, a floor, a beam that splits the room (the beam comes into the room about a foot).  On the right side, there's a fireplace.  On the left side, there's a door.  There's an entire equipment rack and RPTV between the speakers. There's a huge sub on one corner of the room.  There's a rear wall (and another door, sliding glass doors covered by curtain). Moreover, the speakers are toed in.  The floor is tile over concrete; there's a rug between the speakers and me.  I could go on and on.  I guarantee you that no existing program could possibly even know what the parameters of reflection are, let alone determine how these affect the sound.  

Granted, you can take a speaker out into a huge hall and try this.  But I can't try it and I doubt very many, if any people could do this type of measurement correctly.  Moreover, I've heard speakers that had "flat" curves and I thought they sounded like crap.

[Tim S]

 

Jackman, the guy said He will not repair ANY modded speakers in, OR out of warranty.  

Quoted from my previous post that you might have missed:
"BTW, about Hantra's post above about "good luck getting any work done", I think anyone reading Brian's post should have seen this but I am 99.9999% certain that Brian's warning about not honoring warranty on modded speakers refers to major non-factory approved mods (like ripping out a cross-over and putting in a new one) and not things like vitrifying a PR (since he told us to do it) or changing dampening material. "

Read his words again. He advises all sorts of mods all the time and will support those. In the post you were referring too, he just forgot to have his lawyer insert the fine print that anyone could figure out by reading his other posts.

On the other hand, do you think ANY manufacturer will honor a warranty on a product damaged when an end user changes major components that destroy the item?  Heck, many producers of electronics void the warranty if you open the case. The manufacturer of my new watch reserves the right to void the warranty if a non-factory authorized tech changes the battery!

Tim

[John Casler]

1. Is the warrantee voided if a customer who owns an older pair of 626r's puts bracing or BH5 in those flimsy cabinets? I know the newer cabinets are higher quality (at least the new AV123 cabinets which I'm confident are excellently made), but if someone has an older cabinet like the one Danny tested, what options are available to address the shoddy craftsmanship and lack of bracing?

2. Is the warrantee voided if someone replaces the cheap binding posts with better quality posts? This probably isn't a major issue, but some owners who paid $1,600 may wish to have binding posts that are up to the standard of the rest of the speaker.

Hi Jackman,

I think the interesting thing about the cabinet issue is the perception Danny has placed in peoples minds.

I had those cabinets for some time and although at that time most everyone knew that VMPS was "not know" for flashy cabinets, one of the most frequent comments was, "Gee these dont' look bad at all, what's all the fuss about?"

That said, the cabinet issue is a moot point.

Brian has taken steps to offer what many think is the best cabinet on the planet for this type of speaker.

Regarding all those "stuck" with substandard "buzzing" cabinets:  This too is a Danny abberation.  I had those cabinets in my possession and his statement that they "BUZZZ" How do you say BUZZ?" is an example of a totally false statement.  

I had many people rapping on that very cabinet and the sound was knuckles on wood, period.  What the heck would "buzz" when you rap on a cabinet.  Didn't happen total fantasy land.

Did the cabinets "resonate" when played?  Yes they did.  Did it affect the sound?

I wrote a whole post on the potential of that when we started using MLS cabinets.  While I can assure you that even at loud volume those very speakers did not seem to produce any "cabinet noise" that I could hear, it has to be agreed that a more inert cabinet is desirable, or else we wouldn't have gone with better cabinets.

As far as the binding posts, this is another "insinuation" of from Mr GR that displays his powers of perception.

The binding posts in question as explained by Brian are some of the best quality for serious listening.

Danny's statement that they were "very tarnished" is not true.  I had placed a thin coating of "SilClear" on and in the binding posts, which I guess could have been mistaken by someone looking for flaws, as tarnish or corrosion.  It wipes off.

And on top of that, if the brass nut was tarnished that has absoultely no bearing on the sound or performance and could easily be be removed by those so inclined with any tarnish remover.

[Hantra]

I think anyone reading Brian's post should have seen this but I am 99.9999% certain that Brian's warning about not honoring warranty on modded speakers refers to major non-factory approved mods

HOW can you read THAT from THIS:   ? ? ?

Anyone having mods performed by Danny or anyone else voids his warranty. We will not repair any modded speakers in or out of warranty.

Or even this:   ?

We will return to you freight collect and unrepaired any VMPS speaker that has been modded by others.

[jackman]

this info is good to know. the vmps' are still on my short-list for future upgrade. the idea that they had the same tweet as what's used in the diluceo & criterion had eliminated them from this short-list.

Speaker preferences are a very personal thing and everyone is entitled to an opinion, however if you were willing to cross this tweeter off your "short list" because you didn't like them in the GR speakers, you may want to check out this thread.  The speakers appear identical AND they measure indetically.  Hmmmm...you may wish to believe they are different because Big B says so.  Heck, you could save on auditions and just take Brian's word for what sounds better.  That's one way of doing things.  

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=11702.msg99546#99546&sid=7c65d16eea1fd49e55de97394ee840b1

John,
Thanks for the feedback.  I agree that the new cabinets from Mark S and company will be a huge step up in quality.  

Also, if what Brian says about the changes is accurate, I would imagine 100% of the people who compare these speakers (blindly) side by side will favor the original design.  I would imagine these types of comparisons will be happening shortly.  It will be interesting to see which one fares better.
   


Hantra,

Maybe there is a good reason Brian is so paranoid about people trying another crossover design.  I've got a couple guesses but I'll let you come to your own conclusion.  

Cheers,

Jack

PS-I have decided to stop commenting on this topic.  In the end, if people are happy with their systems (and VMPS customers are among the most vocal and loyal) that's all that matters.  I don't own GR or VMPS and, quite honestly, have spent too much time talking about gear than listening to it.  That changes as of [b]now!  I have no vested interest in this topic and hope everyone continues to support both of these fine members of this site.  All the best to all of you!

[doug s.]

hi jack,  if you check out that thread, you will see i also posted there about this issue...  

and, i received an off-forum email from another party who has heard the criterions & the 626r's.  he agrees w/me about the sound of the criterions, & said the 626r's sound nothing like them - wery extended & detailed.  so, mebbe the drivers are the same, mebbe not.  but, it appears the implementation is different.  mebbe being crossed over at 7khz in the 626r's vs 2.5khz in the criterions makes a difference as well...

doug s.

oh, btw, i dunno what brian meant when ie said mods will void the warranty, but i'd be quite surprised if he meant mods he has agreed with...

[John Casler]

Also, if what Brian says about the changes is accurate, I would imagine 100% of the people who compare these speakers (blindly) side by side will favor the original design. I would imagine these types of comparisons will be happening shortly. It will be interesting to see which one fares better.
   

While I assume I and most of my clients would, who knows.  As you mentioned earlier, preferences is what makes it work.

I don't think anyone would be, or should be offended at anyone's personal preferences, unless you are a jerk about expressing them.

I heard the speakers in question.  Do I think running the midrange out of phase would make it sound better?  I tend to doubt it, but then I haven't heard it.

And what is "better"?  For sure they won't image better.  Will they sound better in the next room when your in the Kitchen making lunch?  Probably as good.  Standing up, sitting down, lying on the floor?

There is not, nor will there be "an absolute" here.

I know what I like, and I have heard a small portion of GR sound (the Criterium) along with several others in a critical listening session.  I will refrain from comment and at the time was overly supportive when others were not.

I would imagine that deep in the heart of TX, a couple VMPS FST tweeters are being switched out for a pair of Arum Cantus, before the client arrives, but that is just a guess on my part.