[warnerwh]

Here's something written by Danny I presume as it's on his website:
http://www.gr-research.com/vmps626r.htm
Here's something posted over at AA with pics:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/speakers/messages/166352.html

After reading the Gr Research thread I then found the the first url I posted. Seems to me that this is some sort of attack on VMPS while Brian is on vacation. On Danny's website he outright says some qualities of the 626R are worse than white van speakers.  Maybe my perspective is off but what I've read of people's reactions to the 626R it seems, let's say "peculiar". What do you guys think.

[JohnR]

Hey warner, you forgot one  

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/discuss.cgi?read=310427

[ooheadsoo]

Danny never posted http://www.gr-research.com/vmps626r.htm.  He offered it privately to individuals who were interested in the mod.  It was other people who made that information public.  I think that's pretty clear if you follow the thread.

[MaxCast]

Danny never posted http://www.gr-research.com/vmps626r.htm.  He offered it privately to individuals who were interested in the mod.  It was other people who made that information public.  I think that's pretty clear if you follow the thread.

Ohhh?  I think everything went as planned.

[Andrikos]

Yikes!
That's a hideous looking crossover.
It looks DIY and not a good looking DIY either...

[zybar]

I had already posted this way, way, back...here is a pic of my crossover in my RM 40's with TRT caps:





Now I admit it doesn't look like the inside of a Wadia cd player, but I do know that the RM 40's sound VERY, VERY, GOOD!!  

Isn't that ultimately more important than the way the insides of the speakers look?

George

[jackman]

After reading the Gr Research thread I then found the the first url I posted. Seems to me that this is some sort of attack on VMPS while Brian is on vacation. On Danny's website he outright says some qualities of the 626R are worse than white van speakers. Maybe my perspective is off but what I've read of people's reactions to the 626R it seems, let's say "peculiar". What do you guys think.

I'll tell you what I think.  I think your post is absolute bullshit.  Danny never offered a link to that information.  He offered the crossover upgrade as an option to people who are not happy with the performance of their 626's.  Do you have a problem with his measurements?  Do they look incorrect to you in any way?  Perhaps you feel he made the stuff up about the flimsy cabinets or the cheap crossover parts?  

I am not saying the 626's sound bad or that they are not a good value versus commercial speakers, however some things about them (as stated by Danny on the link you provided) cannot be argued.  They do have flimsy cabinets, the crossover parts are inexpensive and the measured response looks like a roller-coaster (albiet a very fun and exciting one!).  Many people like the sound as-is.  There may be a couple people who are looking to improve the sound who may wish to try Danny's new crossover and suggestions (at least one, the guy who gave Danny the speakers to "fix").   If people try the new crossovers and feel they are not an improvement, they are free to post whatever they choose about Danny and GR.  

Unless Danny made all the stuff up about the cabinets, workmanship, frequency measurements, and cheap components, I don't think it's fair to say he is purposely trying to slam VMPS.  How is this different than Budweiser mentioning Miller in an ad?  IMO, Danny's semi-private offer (he didn't intend for this information to be publically accessed and didn't even provide a link to his site except through private emails) goes far less than some of the comparitive advertising I see every day on TV.  

It did strike me as strange that a guy who is famous for touting the value of caps that are are "trimmed to the third decimal" using caps that are not even matched to the first decimal!  Or how about unsing L Pads and unbraced cabinets which would seem to have a much greater negative impact on the sound than caps trimmed to the thousandth decimal place would have on the positive.   What's up with that?

In the end, VMPS owners will come to the defense of their speakers, Brian will come on and say Danny's measurements are crap or that measurements in general are crap and that this is all an attemp to slam a competitor...nothing changes.   I'd still like to hear an A/B comparison between the two speakers.  Could be interesting.

Jman

[EDS_]

Hi guys:

Jackman's "absolute bullshit" resopnse caused my first belly laugh in some weeks. Thank you Jackman.

Now for my perspective, lame as it is-.

1. I met Danny once, at Gary Dodd's place. Danny is a nice, soft spoken guy, who loves audio. I listened to several GR offerings driven by Dodd power.

2. To date I have never purchased anything directly from GR. However, I did own a damaged (fairly severe burn marks on bottom and side of one cabinet) second hand pair of Danny's Diluceos-built by Danny. Long story short I removed one of the bass drivers-to look inside for internal damage. I used a mirror and flashlight...........Danny's termination work is the stuff that would make a NASA master technician proud. Aside from the top notch components I saw smooth rounded wire bends yielding unstressed wires, a cabinet built like a tank, and next to Randy White's, the best soldering I've seen anywhere (my dad was an EE diy nut-I've seen a lot of good solder work). FWiiW-I sold the damaged set some months ago. I am "in the thinking stages" of an all Diluceo multichannel system.

Sooooooooo.........compared to Danny's "work", cabinets, and parts selection the 626s studied really look weak.

Lame-ish components are one thing........cheapish can sound good. I'll even argue that "live-ish" cabinets can sound good (my second system Triangle Zephyr XSs for example)
Ill fitting drivers and mismatched components.........that's just sloppy-IMO.

[ZooDog]

The inside of that speaker looks horrible.  No internal bracing?  Oh yeah, I forgot it has "Soundcoat".  I know it's all about the sound but give me a break.  VMPS speakers may be a good value but they are not inexpensive, and I would expect much better constuction quality for the price.  VMPS claims to use very high quality parts in their speakers so why should they be constructed in what appears to be such a slipshod manner?

[ekovalsky]

A question of timing... http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=11497  

I'm not posting anything in the GR Research forum, but will make a few points here...

lonewolfny42 made a good observation.  I'm sure Big B will have a few choice words to share upon return from his annual vacation  

I have never seen "White Van" speakers but will admit some of the older VMPS cabinets aren't pretty.  Sal's RM-40 cabinets were pretty nice if you paid for a decent veneer.  The current boxes from M.L.S., Dorne, and Bud are just superb.  Today, no matter how style-conscious one is there is no need to pass over VMPS because of cosmetics.  And, the cabinet of the RM/X is deader than Udai & Qusay Hussein  

VMPS crossovers are not works of art.  Open up one of Big B's babies and you will not see the gorgeous circuit boards which are inside of Thiels, Wilson's, etc.  He chooses parts based on listening tests and cost effectiveness and there is nothing wrong with that.  If you want more expensive capacitors they are available at a price premium.  Same with higher quality wiring on the woofers.  By the way, the iron core inductors and silver-coated copper, teflon-insulated wire are used not because of their low price but because of listening preferences by the manufacturer.

Personally, I don't care how unattractive the crossover looks since it is a hidden part.  Ever look at the mess within a Porsche's engine bay?  I'd still rather have it under the hood (or trunk) than a neat-n-tidy Honda or Toyota engine.  

That being said, I am sure the crossover for the 626 and other VMPS speakers can be improved.  If anyone can build a crossover that will significantly improve the performance of the RM/X over the factory TRT'd units I'd consider it.  I've toyed with the idea of bypassing the crossovers altogether and going with a tri-amp TacT digital setup.  A few months ago I was about to pull the trigger on a RCS 2.2X and three S2150 amps on the 'gon but another AudioCircle member beat me to it!

[zybar]

Well said as always Eric.

George

[Redbone]

ekovalsky,

I am currently in the process of actively tri-amping (external active crossovers) my RM40s.  As such, I probably have as much experience as any customer with the RM40s crossovers.  I strongy recommend not trying to use an external crossover with your speakers unless you are prepared for some surprises and a LOT of work.  If you would like more information, send me a PM or email.

[Andrikos]

Ekowalsky,
definitely consider the active crossover route.
Superior to passive crossovers in many, many ways...

[ekovalsky]

Only way I'll go the active path is triamping with programmable digital crossovers, parametric EQ and room correction, and a very accurate spectrum analyzer.   Main benefits would be control of room modes, steep slope on the woofer crossover, and elimination of the L-pads from the circuit path.

I think Trevor is more or less following this route with his BCSE RM-40's and I'd love to hear how it is working out for him.

After examining the factory crossovers and being aware of the number and sensitivity of each individual driver, I am very skeptical that active biamping with a Marchand or similar device will be a significant improvement over passive biamping through the upgraded factory crossover assuming plenty of clean, solid state power.  High damping factor definitely helps on the bass system.

I forgot to mention in my previous post that the neo panels used by VMPS are indeed very similar to the Monsoon computer speakers, which I also happen to own.  Monsoon's multi-way floorstanders had "issues" but my MM-2000 computer speakers are magnificent from about 166hz on up !  In fact I so impressed by them I sought big rig speakers using similar drivers.  Both the VMPS neo panels and Monsoon panels were designed by Dragoslav Colich and produced by Sonigistix/Level9 in Canada, but the VMPS drivers are different in that they have dual stators and a much more rigid frame.  

The fatal flaw of the Level9 drivers was a poor mechanical connection between an aluminum rivet and the driver leads which it crimped, resulting in intermittent static and distortion.  My pair of RM-40's was one of the first built with these defective drivers.  Since aluminum is difficult (and hazardous) to solder, the solution was to remove the rivets entirely and replace them with a machine screw, lock washer and a nut.  No, it is not the prettiest solution.  But from eight feet away it isn't noticeable, and the parts are cheap and the problem was eliminated.  If someone finds the tiny green PCB on each driver unattractive put a piece of black electrical tape over it.  Since it is the same color as the driver frame it blends in and will not be noticed.  Or just use the grills.

Check out the HPV Technologies website.  There is a reason the panels on those monster arrays look a lot like the VMPS/Monsoon planars.  The Chief Technical Officer of HPV Technologies is none other than Dragoslav Colich.  Perhaps these panels will appear in future VMPS designs, as the stock of the Level9/Sonigistix ribbons eventually will vanish.  Somehow I don't think any future VMPS models will feature the Neo8 panels  



Here is a biography of Dragoslav (from Audio Engineering Society) if anyone is interested in the pedigree of the VMPS midrange drivers...

Dragoslav Colich was born in Bor, in the former Yugoslavia and graduated fromBelgrade University with a degree in mechanical engineering. After graduationhe worked at Belgrade University as a professor assistant, teaching combustionengine theory. He was head engineer in R&D for a company that designedelectrostatic filters for cleaning industrial gases.Mr. Colich has been heavily involved in acoustics, electronics, and electromagneticssince elementary school. His first contact with planar magnetic technology beganin the early 70’s, when he owned some Magneplanar MGII loudspeakers, a full-range planar magnetic loudspeaker made by Magnepan. He focused his intereston planar magnetic speakers for high-end home market and developed his ownproprietary designs of planar magnetic and ribbon transducers.He owned a small custom speaker system design company for home and promarket using his own designs, including the necessary electronics, preamplifiers,active and passive crossovers, power amplifiers, measuring equipment, etc. Healso did loudspeaker and electronics repair, winding voice coils, transformers,crossovers coils, etc.Mr Colich immigrated to Canada in 1993 and was involved as a design engineerwith the Cancer Research Center in British Columbia for a few years, and workedwith lasers and digital video imaging systems. He joined Sonigistix Corp. inVancouver as a transducer and system design engineer. He designed planarmagnetic transducers that were used in multimedia and home speaker systems,and sold under the Monsoon brand. Sonigistix was the first company able tomass-produce planar magnetic transducers. Monsoon multimedia planarspeakers have set a new quality benchmark for the industry.He designed the world’s first totally passive magnetizer for in-line magnetizationof neodymium magnets for planar transducers. Sonigistix was sold to an Asianvendor and the company Level 9 Sound Designs was formed. He got involved inpro sound through a joint venture of Sonigistix and Spectrum ATG, designing thefirst pro planar magnetic transducer in the industry that could be used in full-range loudspeaker arrays for sound reinforcement and could compete withconventional products. He joined HPV Technology LLC (formerly Spectrum ATG) asCTO, where he designed planar magnetic transducers for the MAD SurfaceArrayTM. He also designed the MAD Dipole/Cardioid Subwoofer ArrayTMtocomplement the A9 Planar Array.Granted Patents and AwardsPatent—USD 440460—Planar magnetic transducer

[ctviggen]

I was going to passively biamp my RM40s.  I have my Linns biamped this way.  There is a 3db difference in gain between the two amps I'm using, and this difference is noticeable sometimes, typically with bass-heavy tracks, as I've used the higher gain amp on the bass.  Nonetheless, with the vast majority of stuff I've listened to, I cannot tell there's a 3db bass gain.  It's very strange.  

However, the controls on the RM40 should allow me to dial out this difference.

[DFaulds]

ekovalsky,

You stated that "VMPS drivers are different in that they have dual stators and a much more rigid frame".  Stators are the electrically charged grids used in electrostats and are not present in planar magnetic drivers, so I'm not sure what you meant.  I think the VMPS Neos are essentially the same panel as those used in the Monsoon MM series PC speakers.  Very nice sounding drivers.

[Andrikos]

Only way I'll go the active path is triamping with programmable digital crossovers, parametric EQ and room correction, and a very accurate spectrum analyzer.   Main benefits would be control of room modes, steep slope on the woofer crossover, and elimination of the L-pads from the circuit path.

Very well said. You'll be blown away at the differences you'll hear.

As for the link you supplied, I gotta say it's fascinating.
Is there any chance us DIYers get our hands on a few of those transducers? They look mighty interesting!

[Brian Cheney]

I saw the "review" and "improvements" of the 626R on the GR website.

Danny does not mention that his "fix" includes inverting the polarity of the midrange driver relative to woofer and tweeter, which destroys the phase integrity of the system.  It is possible to achieve flatter amplitude response this way at the expense of sound quality, which does not appear to interest Mr. Richie.

The 626R cabinet made by Sal Salgado (shown in the review) was 1" MDF front and back and 3/4" top and sides.  It ships at 42 lbs loaded.  The more recent Bud Bailey and mls 626R's are all 1" and the mls cabinets are laminated and heavily braced as well as Soundcoated. They
ship at 48 lbs loaded.

My measurements of the stock 626R's do not agree with those published by GR.  Owner satisfaction with the 626R's sound quality and finish is very high.

The parts in the 626R are first rate and chosen for sound quality.  Mr. Richie might favor other brands, such as the ones he sells.  Very expensive superpreium parts such as the Auricaps and TRT's are available.

I make each crossover by hand myself.  There are no printed circuit boards and everything is hardwired point to point.  The Lpads allow on the fly adjustments that resistor sustitutions do not, and the increments of level control are 1/20dB, better than can be achieved even with 1% resistors.

This is a hobby and anyone who wants to modify their VMPS speakers is welcome to do so and report back on the results.

The VMPS booth (RM 40 and RM/X speakers and Ampzilla electronics) received the Best of CES Award for High End Audio in both 2002 and 2003, beating out the most famous names in audio and products 10 times our price.  I don't think that fact is subject to criticism or debate, though it does appear to generate some petty jealousy from the competition.

[ctviggen]

How many increments for level control are there?  If one increment is 1/20 dB, then it would take 100 increments to get 5dB, which is what I've heard we can do.  The reason I ask is that I'll be initially biamping my VMPS with two amps that have a 3dB difference (one's 26 db and one's 29 dB).  I might also try one amp, so I'll have to move the Lpads and it would be nice to count clicks for a gross assessment.

[Brian Cheney]

There are 400 click stops between 12 o'clock and 5 o'clock.  You are going to be most concerned with the 20 stops between 12 and 1 o'clock which constitute 1dB level change.