[John Casler]

One burning question I have, is why did texasphile purchased the 626R if he wasn't pleased with the sound? It sounds like he heard them at John Casler's pad. Why didn't he just purchase a pair of G-R Research speakers if he was so impressed with Danny's work on his former Soliloquy speakers?

Hi Eric,

There are a lot of interesting things about this whole mess and much of it has to do with what we all do, and that is search for the better sound.

Chris (texasphile) "did not" hear the speakers at my place.  That was an interpretation by a GR owner who misinterpreted what Chris wrote.

While when he contacted me, he said he knew exactly what he wanted, it turns out that he had never heard them and only afterwards did he mention that he should have investigated the speaker more.

I am under the impression that he has had a close relationship with Danny for some time.

And he "DID" purchase a pair of AV-3 or some such speaker either before or after his Soliloquy speakers, which Danny also modded.

And just like all of us (well maybe not you since you have the "top rung") he'll probably continue to search.

I'm sure the modded 626R will not be his last speaker.

His direct "this is what I want", approach did not lend itself to me going into "full detail" about the 626R and how to listen to it "before" purchase.

That is the game.  That is the hobby.  The chase is the fun of it.

So the short answer (which I am never good at) is:

1) He didn't hear the speaker at my place (he just heard my speakers at "his" place)

2) He has had one of Danny's designs, as well as two modded (including this one) speakers by him.

I don't want anyone to think bad of Chris in any way.  He is a good guy, just doing what he feels is best, to get the sound he wants.

[ekovalsky]

Chris (texasphile) "did not" hear the speakers at my place. That was an interpretation by a GR owner who misinterpreted what Chris wrote.  

Thanks for clarifying this point.  Still not sure why he would choose the 626R over the Diluceo given the positive experience with G-R products previously, but "such is the game" !

And just like all of us (well maybe not you since you have the "top rung") he'll probably continue to search.

It is true that I am no longer searching for speakers, for the first time since I got my Apogee Diva/DAX/Muse18 combo eight years ago.  As I've mentioned elsewhere on the forums, one of these days I may go the active tri-amping route with digital crossovers, parametric EQ, and DSP room correction and time alignment.  Right now just TacT and Accuphase make such equipment but more will undoubtedly follow in the upcoming years.

Time alignment is one thing lacking in the VMPS designs.  I understand why, because it would greatly increase cabinet cost and the gains may not be worth the price of admission.  And the planar arrays would be tough to incorporate.   A few years back I almost bought a pair of Thiel CS7.2 but didn't think I could live with the cone drivers long term.

[texasphile]

Still not sure why he would choose the 626R over the Diluceo given the positive experience with G-R products previously, but "such is the game" !

I wanted to purchase a good 3 Way design.  The Diluceos are a 2 Way design.   I own a pair of AV3s (also 2 Ways)  which were purchased in kit form late last year and are not finished.  I find myself lacking the time and sufficient skills to build a set of loudspeakers from a kit.  My next project will be to have the AV3s assembled.

...he'll probably continue to search.

John is correct about the continuing to search, there is no perfect speaker in reality - only in theory.  The physics behind loudspeakers is an exercise of compromises.  It is maximizing that which you like, combined with minimizing that which you do not.

I did not audition the VMPS product prior to purchase, it turns out that the nearest dealer is somewhere in the neighborhood of 5.5 or more hours away from my house which would equal a large time and money expenditure for a product that I may or may not have ended up purchasing.  I could have just purchased the speakers and then sold them without a great loss in monetary value after auditioning.  I was asked in private email if I could have requested a refund.  I never asked John, before or after purchase, if this was an option.  Instead, I chose to have the loudspeakers modified by a local speaker designer, who then decided to possibly offer the modification to others (which I do not know if he decided to follow through with the offer to continue VMPS modifications beyond my own units).  As you may guess, I probably should have chosen the former course of action as it would have saved all involved considerable trouble.  I hope that helps to clear up the mystery somewhat.

[J Harris]

texasphile,

Aren't all VMPS speakers offered with 30-day return privileges, you're only out freight? That's the deal I got on mine.

Perhaps you didn't get that because you bought used? I'm not sure.

J!

[Charles Calkins]

I really hate to read about a product gettin knocked like VMPS has been lately. VMPS has been in business for a long time and I'm sure that if one of their customers has a gripe it will be taken care of as soon as possible.

 I thought that the circle was a place where us audioholics could talk to each other about products and get information. Sure there are things we get upset about but I keep those things between me and the manufacturer.

 I've never heard a VMPS speaker. I've never met Brian Cheney so as you can see I'm not grinding an axe for VMPS

                 Cheers
                Charlie

[NealH]

I would like to see an impule response plot of both the standard and modded speaker - very much like is done on the Stereophile tests.  I bet the standard is much more phase aligned.  Not that it is the most important aspect of a design, but in my opinion soundstanging is much more accurate on true phase and time aligned speakers.

[Brian Cheney]

You are correct.

While Danny claims the mids are "acoustically" in phase with their polarity reversed, this applies only to the narrow crossover region, not the broad passband.

Ongoing positive pulse response will go negative almost immediately in the polarity inverted midrange configuration,  This is audible as some notes coming towards you and others going in the opposite direction.  It is a weird, amusical effect, the price of the slightly smoother amplitude response of the non-minimum-phase filter design Danny espouses, and which is common to 95% of the three and more way speakers out there.

[ted_b]

It is true that I am no longer searching for speakers, for the first time since I got my Apogee Diva/DAX/Muse18 combo eight years ago.  As I've mentioned elsewhere on the forums, one of these days I may go the active tri-amping route with digital crossovers, parametric EQ, and DSP room correction and time alignment.  Right now just TacT and Accuphase make such equipment but more will undoubtedly follow in the upcoming years.

Not intending to hijack this thread, Eric,, here's an interesting piece of software intended for the crossover/room correction crowd in the burgeoning audiophile pc movement.  I've dabbled in it (the pc as source) and it is VERY promising.

http://pcazeles.perso.cegetel.net/acxo.htm

Ted_B

[ekovalsky]

Thanks for the link Ted.  Very interesting stuff, particularly since  I am quite the computer geek!

At some point I am going to demo a computer-based front end from VRS Audio Systems.  If it surpasses my expectations that may be the starting point of going down the digital crossover route.

I'm sure I'd be pleased with a good room correction device and parametric EQ.  But what I'd really like to hear is the added effect of time alignment to the phase-correct VMPS design.  That would probably mean a RM/X cabinet with the woofer box extruded outward and maybe a radiused surface array of planar mids (hate to know what Dorne would charge for that!)

Probably would be much cheaper to build the speaker with no crossover and just put three pairs of binding posts in (one to each driver set) for use with outboard active digital crossovers/amps.  No need for 6db/octave slopes since with DSP any slope can be implemented without regard to phase effects.  Plus the programmability will give VMPS fans much more to tweak  

Big B, how about it for a future CES concept

[ted_b]

The VRS stuff is pretty amazing, but they want $4500 for a pc with a Lynx card and some good rf/em protection.  You can build that for $1600, and that includes the $700 Lynx card and large quiet Barracuda drives.  My choice is use an outboard dac and just make sure your middle-of-road pro soundcard or spdif-off-motherboard is bit-perfect (i.e 44.1k and ASIO compliant).  

Big B, wow, an RM/X with three binding post sets and no crossovers .......ummmmmmmmm, sweet.

Ted_B

[ggetzoff]

Dear Brian Cheney,

I purchased my first VMPS product almost 15 years ago. At that time, I was in college and was an aspiring loudspeaker manufacturer. On several occasions, we spoke over the phone and I found your customer service to be nothing less than exemplary.

I never did pursue it as a career, however, your down-to-earth demeanor was both remarkable and admirable in this industry.  I never could understand/tolerate the arrogance and the bashing of ones competitor.

Right, wrong, or indifferent, to insult your product in that regard doesn't begin to reflect the truth.

 
Just my two cents....


Greg

[J Harris]

Brian, not to keep this alive endlessly, but you might want to post a reply on the iron-core inductor issue, where the debate is still very much alive, at Audiogon:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1089933017&openfrom&45&4#45

J!

[Brian Cheney]

Thanks for your concern.  I could spend all my time responding to questions on this subject, particularly parts choice and design philosophy.

Most of Danny's objections to my crossover are characteristic of first order slopes (i.e. vertical lobing) and in-phase design (less than ideal amplitude linearity).  His solution is a phase-random crossover with an inverted polarity midrange.  This measures better and sounds much worse (if you're sensitive to polarity/phase phenomena which I am from long practice).

Danny is welcome to his opinions, regardless of how poisonously he presents them.  However he made numerous claims and statements that are untrue, are presented deliberately and maliciously, with intent to harm my professional reputation and sales of my products, while benefitting Danny and his product line.  These statements include:

1. His claim that the 626R cabinet is made of 5/8" material.  The cabinet he examined has 1" thick MDF front and back baffles and 3/4" top and sides.
2. His claim that the cabinets are flimsy, shoddy, poorly constructed and reminiscent of "white van speakers".  This is so scurrilous as to virtually define "libel".  The reference to the fradulently marketed cheap Chinese speakers sold to the gullible from unmarked vehecles is intolerable.

3. His claim that all the 626R crossover parts are "the absolute cheapest of their kind" is demonstrably false.  Indeed, Danny retains many of these "cheapest" (and by inference, poor quality) parts in his "expensive parts" mod!  Add the hypocrisy of Danny using cheaper parts than I do
(e.g. fixed L pads one-third the cost of my 100W variable L-pads) and you have actionable printed falsehoods.  Danny also fails to mention that the critical impedance-matching resistor in the 626R crossover (a 1% Vishay) is twice the price of the Caddock resistors he recommends.

4. His claim that the 626R weighs 33 lbs, less than his equivalent product at that price which is physically smaller.  The 626R weighs 44 lbs and ships at 53 lbs, as I was recently able to confirm using the 1% accurate electronic scale at UPS.

5. His publishing pictures of the 626 with claims that the pictures show incompetent design and construction.  This is using "power of suggestion" to influence the viewer into thinking these false statements are true.  Like publishing a picture of a ham sandwich with the caption "Tasty morsel!" to generate favorable viewer response, then showing the same picture with a different caption such as "Inedible mess!" to generate unfavorable response. In reality.
our beautifully finished, professionally made cherry veneer cabinets have garnered many compliments from owners and critics alike.

6. Danny publishes FR curves with the scale expanded to make the speaker appear less linear than speakers measured with standard scales.
Again he uses power of suggestion to denigrate my design.

There is much more. Danny will be given an opportunity to publish a full retraction, explaining the distortions, half-truths, and outright lies he published.  If he declines to do so he can expect consequences.

[Brian Cheney]

Slurve's abusive post has been deleted.

Any of Danny's apologists who post hostile and insulting comments here will also find their posts deleted.

[Brian Cheney]

The moderators inform me they cannot ban posters from individual forums, just from AC as a whole.

So, if you plan to come here and harrass this forum be advised you may well lose posting priveleges at AC entirely.

This applies particularly to repeat offenders.

[doug s.]

Slurve's abusive post has been deleted.

Any of Danny's apologists who post hostile and insulting comments here will also find their posts deleted.

hi brian,

i think it is unfortunate that you deleted slurve's hostile & insulting comments, and my comments in defense of you, regarding them.  in legalese, i say "res ipsa loquitur" - "the thing speaks for itself."  let folk see what kinda bs is being flung about, & let them make their own decisions.  

if the initial inflammatory comments were out there, and then were subsequently being questioned, that would be much better p.r. in the long run, imo, then deleting the comments.  now, folk yust know you deleted something ya dint like, & they dunno what it was, so they can make no judgments, other than the fact that you deleted someone's comments...  now, yure getting a bad rap on other threads for censorship, being like a communist, etc.

i can understand why yure angry - as i said before, even a blind man could see the storm that was gonna ensue, based upon danny r's initial inflammatory comments in his 1st post offering mods to your speakers.  but, yust let the facts speak for themselves - ya got nuttin' to fear!  the truth will set you free!  

regards,

doug s.

[Brian Cheney]

I should have just deleted your quotation of slurve's post, which was so inflammatory no defense was possible.  I appreciate your comments but this sniping has to stop.

[meilankev]

Brian,

As you know, I don't post much here anymore - I prefer HTT.  But in my opinion, this entire thread needs to stop.  The sooner it falls off the page, the better...

I wish you the best of luck (and strength) in this storm that's surrounding you,
Kevin

[Brian Cheney]

This thread is now locked.  Having spoken with site administrator John R I now regret deleting any posts.  John R informs me it's better to move them to the "intergalactic wastebin" so that the contentious can read them before they're trashed.

I apologize for any intemperate remarks made here or elsewhere.  The attacks by Danny gave me the emotional yips and made my blood pressure reach new heights.  Having just come back from vacation I feel like I need another one.