[rosconey]

waaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

btw -vmps stock crossovers  are made like crap-
the ones i ordered for my large sub looked like they were made by a blind monkey with the cheapest parts in the jungle- one inductor was wound so bad it was a joke, these were made by big b and when i called he said use it anyway, wouldnt send out a replacement till he got the old one back-not-i got a refund .
when i first got the sub i called because the cabinet was less than decent-1/8 inch gaps filled with cracked putty at the joints- again the blind monkey appears, when i called b said he looked at the cabinet before shipping and it was ok.
i think service from vmps has alot to do with the price you spend

[DFaulds]

Is that RM30 pic an actual speaker that was sold to a customer?  Usually, when a manufacturer gets cabinets that are not to "spec" (cut to fit the drivers) the manufacturer will reject the cabinets, or will sometines simply sell them to a liquidator to recover part of the costs.  If this was actually sold to a customer, that's pretty sad but hopefully an isolated incident.

IMHO I don't think Danny needs to build a business around modifying VMPS speakers.  I think he does pretty well with his GR speakers, as well as his part in the design of the highly acclaimed Epiphany line source speakers.  More than likely his somewhat "aggressive" approach to this 626R mod was fueled by the unfortunate well known exchanges between Brian and Danny in the past.  Of course, that's not to say that he may have actually come up with a pretty good mod.

I would STRONGLY suggest that anyone who has 626R's check their crossovers to see if there is an iron core coil in th tweeter circuit.  There are few things that can kill an open detailed high end more than an iron core coil.  I know from a repsonse from Brian that he no longer uses these in tweeter circuits in 626Rs.  Perhaps Brian has records that might indicate who has 626Rs with iron core coils and could offer an "at cost" upgrade.

[MaxCast]

The hole is probably the new driver B talked about, a different mounting flange.  Not much to worry about except for looks.

[DFaulds]

Not much to worry about except looks?  What does that mean?  Are you saying that if they are shipped this way that's OK?  I would expect a bit more for $3,500, and I'm certain that Brian doesn't ship RM30's looking like this.

[zybar]

Sorry this is off topic, but I couldn't resist...

A surgeon's skills are almost always inversely proportional to his bedside manner.  Were I to find myself needing a surgeon's services, I'd go to a guy who is one of the biggest assholes I've known.

The docs who end up in the "Top 100 Doctors in (fill in your city here)" magazine stories are usually among the worst in town.  They usually are slick talkers and are loved by the media and their patients.  Most are old and not up on current standard of car ...

Eric,

I lucked out in that my current ortho has excellent surgical skills (he has worked on my knees three separate times - 2 ACL reconstructions and one scope) and a very good bedside manner.  

You are correct that at the end of the day skills win out over the "soft skills".  

Maybe my analogy wasn't the best one in the world...but I think I got my point across.

George

[zybar]

You'll have to excuse me for blowing up when I read this evening that Danny's "improvements" included moving the tweeter crossover down an octave.

If you make commercial speakers they have to be reliable. I don't like high order slopes (24/36dB/oct would be necessary with a 3.5kHz crossover and even then things would be iffy) and don't operate the FST below where I know it's comfortable.

I know DIY's who run 1" softdomes down to 800Hz and brag about it. Of course they don't mind replacing diaphragms or whole tweeters regularly.

The policy I quoted about not repairing modded speakers comes straight out of the Acoustic Research warranty statement circa 1965. They would not repair any modified speaker systems and told you that up front.

Mods are fine with me until they make my product fail. Then I can get short.

If this owner had adjusted the level controls on the 626R to match his room and equipment we wouldn't be discussing mods now. Instead he took the speaker to a competitor who found all sorts of things wrong with it and recommended a complete rebuild.

Caveat emptor. Sorry I can't be forgiving and mellow about this, folks. Danny intends to start his own VMPS modding business and even tells people how flawed the RM40 is based on its driver layout, which BTW is quite similar to that used by John Dunlavy who probably could also use a lecture about how wrong he was from Danny.

He's got people actually believing him too. How sad, how unfortunate, how very wrong of him.
_________________
Big B

Big B,

I agree that this wasn't a simple case of somebody modifying somebody's product.

I agree that the VMPS speakers need proper configuration to sound their best.  I have heard my 40's sound really bad when I didn't have the pots or the passive right.  When they are setup properly, they have produced stunning music.

I am having 10-20 people over tomorrow and it will be interesting to see how they like the system.

BTW, no issue with the stance on not honoring factory warranty if the speaker is modified in certain ways.  I don't know too many vendors who would honor a warranty in that situation.

George

[Tim S]

He also told me that he had not "touched" the pots "period" to try and adjust the sound.

I think everyone should read this again and John should go and post this on every page this is being discussed. As I have said before many times, the adjustability is a blessing and a curse for VMPS speakers. When they get into the hands of people who don't have the time, patience or inclination to deal with them, as they did here, the results are less than ideal. It sounds like the guy wanted "plug and play" speakers and didn't realize that with VMPS the "play" part takes on an enitrely different meaning than with others.

Brian's point about Danny mis-identifying the tweeter and perhaps setting it up to fail is also a rather important point here. Danny alluded to others asking him about the mod and they should definitely be warned before they do it.

BTW, about Hantra's post above about "good luck getting any work done", I think anyone reading Brian's post should have seen this but I am 99.9999% certain that Brian's warning about not honoring warranty on modded speakers refers to major non-factory approved mods (like ripping out a cross-over and putting in a new one) and not things like vitrifying a PR (since he told us to do it) or changing dampening material.

Tim

[John B]

I
was not prepared for the passion that Loudspeakers ignite. Who knew?

Texasphile,

First off you did nothing wrong by seeking to have your speakers modified.   The mod guy was local, and he said he could improve the sound; you didn't like the sound at all at that point, so what have you got to lose right.   I can see how you would make the decision you did.   In hindsight, probably not a wise decision.   If the tweeter/crossover mismatch brings problems you'll have to throw some good money after the bad to get it repaired...unless of course Danny does a quick re-design based on Brian's head's up on that.   Brian should get a consulting fee don't you think?  

What is wrong here is the approach by the mod guy.   I doubt you'll find many mod guys saying that the product they are modifying is poorly designed and defective as is.   In the Mod business it's about improving on an affordable product, taking it from average performance (for the price) to outstanding performance.   All for less than you would have had to pay for a ready built product of the same quality level.   If the mod guy is really good at what he does, and produces a quality modified product, the original product mfg. might continue to warranty their product inclusive of the mod, as has happened with the Perpetual Technologies P1A/P3A combo modified by Dan Wright.   That is how “good business” is done.   The Mod guy wins, the Manufacturer of the source product wins, and the customer wins.   A win win win situation     So what do we have with the GR-Research mod?   The mod guy trashes the original product on a public forum and then rushes out a design mod that may be faulty.   The mod guy has ethically questionable marketing tactics which now forces his customer to defend himself in a public manner.   The seller of that particular set of speakers now has to defend not only the product he sold and enjoyed for many years,  but now his own listening skills and reputation are put in question.   This mod guy has also put owners of VMPS 626R's in jeopardy of losing product re-sale value, as he has started an urban myth which eludes to the fact that VMPS speakers have shoddy construction and questionable crossover design.   None of which bears out to what most 626R owners are experiencing.  

Now Texasphile, do you see why there might be just a little passion in regards to what is happening around your speakers?   I myself was new to tunable ribbon speakers before buying my set of 626Rs.   I learned by trial and error what worked and what didn’t.  John Casler was right there with me every step of the way, giving advice, helping me in learning how to tune and best optimize my speakers.   Perhaps Danny will do that for you, but I will say you’ve lost one heck of a good resource in Mr. Casler when you made the decision you did.   I wish you the best with your GR-Research mod; I hope it gives you all you hoped it would.

[Hantra]

[Rick Craig]

Do the 626R's come with suggested settings or factory-adjusted settings for both of the L-Pads? If so, that should've been the baseline measurement that Danny used.

[lonewolfny42]

Is it buttered....how bout a drink.

[John B]

Do the 626R's come with suggested settings or factory-adjusted settings for both of the L-Pads? If so, that should've been the baseline measurement that Danny used.

On the back of my 626Rs is a diagram of the suggested pot "starting points".  It's at about 2 o'clock.   From there you tune down to where you get the tonal and soundstage qualities that you prefer.    Mine have gone from a high of 1 o'clock to there current setting of 11 o'clock.   The changes were prompted by listening experience with the speakers, aging of the drivers, and the installation of room treatments.

[JohnR]

Do the 626R's come with suggested settings or factory-adjusted settings for both of the L-Pads? If so, that should've been the baseline measurement that Danny used.

Come off it, Rick. You read the webpage, he said those were the best measurements he could get by adjusting the pots.

[Rick Craig]

Do the 626R's come with suggested settings or factory-adjusted settings for both of the L-Pads? If so, that should've been the baseline measurement that Danny used.

Come off it, Rick. You read the webpage, he said those were the best measurements he could get by adjusting the pots.

IMO the best way to approach this would be to use the suggested settings for measurements. That way there would be no speculation about the settings Danny used and Brian's measurements could be compared to what Danny measured.

[DFaulds]

Rick, that makes sense.  Of course we haven't seen nay other measurements so I guess it doesn't matter.  Perhaps you could measure a pair of 626R's and post your results here on in your forum.  Anyone 626R owners close to Rick?

[Brian Cheney]

The recommended pot settings are ones that yield the best listening results with most equipment in a good environment, not the flattest measurements.

I will publish a family of curves done at various measurement heights and pot settings.  

The result of running the speaker with a non-adjustable crossover set for flat on-axis response is usually a bright, thin, forward sound most people don't care for.  Therefore the pots.

[F-100]

Looks like there is still quality control issues........How the hell was this hole cut (RM30)

 

Wish I still had a picture of my old QSO626 to show to you guys.
The hole cut was so bad that it look like it was done by a chisel instead by a router.

[DFaulds]

Brian, you are absolutely correct about speakers that measure flat.  Most times they do sound too bright, and are not usually very "musical".  For anyone who attends live non-amplified musical performances, particaularly orchestral music, the sound would usually be characterized as warm or even dark, with rolled off highs and recessed upper midrange.  I think it's because there is more bass in live music than is usually reproduced by hi-fi systems.  In fact, most "audiophiles" would probably equate live acoustic bass as somewhat bloated and ill-defined.

Not sure why setups that measure flat usually equate to bright sound.  Perhaps it's that most recordings are made with a more bright and forward sound.  Interesting, and all part of the fun.

[jackman]

Brian Stated:

No 626R owner can purchase off-the-shelf components for his speaker that will do a good job. Anyone having mods performed by Danny or anyone else voids his warranty. We will not repair any modded speakers in or out of warranty.

I have been following this thread with great interest.  I have a couple questions regarding the type of "mods" that Brian mentions above:


1.  Is the warrantee voided if a customer who owns an older pair of 626r's puts bracing or BH5 in those flimsy cabinets?  I know the newer cabinets are higher quality (at least the new AV123 cabinets which I'm confident are excellently made), but if someone has an older cabinet like the one Danny tested, what options are available to address the shoddy craftsmanship and lack of bracing?  

2.  Is the warrantee voided if someone replaces the cheap binding posts with better quality posts?  This probably isn't a major issue, but some owners who paid $1,600 may wish to have binding posts that are up to the standard of the rest of the speaker.

3.  Unless Danny measured the caps incorrectly, it appears they were slightly mis-matched, not something I'd expect from a company that touts the value of caps matched within three decimal places in their cap upgrade. Danny’s measurements showed  “One (cap) was a 55.19uF and one was a 55.22uF.”  Does changing the caps to ones that are within, say, a couple decimal places void the warrantee or should these people just live with caps that are so far out of spec?  What about the inductors?  Measurements showed  “one inductor was a 5.66mH and one was a 5.73mH. Close (and good) but not held to the same stadard as the caps.”  Will the warrantee be voided if someone tries to use “matching” inductors in their 626r?  

4.  If the frequency response measurements that GR Research made were so  off, where are the correct ones?  I understand many manufacturers may feel frequency response measurements are not a good indicator as to how a speaker actually sounds, but when someone says that measurements another manufacturer posts are incorrect, I would expect them to at least provide "corrected" measurement as a rebuttal.  No?

5.  For those of you who are literacy-challenged, Danny states that he tried to use the L-pad setting that gave the flattest response but: “There was just no way to adjust an accurate response using the L-pad adjustments. Since the tweeter axis yielded the best (smoothest) response and below tweeter axis yielded a really messed up response it seamed that in measuring off axis vertical responses that the tweeter level would be the best bassline reading.”

Ultimately, the proof is in the sound.  If Danny’s x-over modifications don’t sound better, or if they sound worse or if they damage the speakers, I EXPECT everyone to jump on him.  Heck, I’d be the first to do it.  I take Brian’s comments on the potential damage this mod could cause with a grain of salt.  Danny has been designing speakers for a long time and, although most of us may disagree as to what sounds good, I think he knows how to design a crossover that will not blow up the drivers.  Could it be that Big B is a little scared that the new crossovers may actually sound better than the old?    Unlike some arguments, this one should be fairly easy to “resolve”.  Anyone up for a good ol’ fashion Texas Speaker Showdown???   Jman

[ctviggen]

But if you measure the results of speaker response in a room, what does it tell you?  For me, nothing.  I measured my Linn system in a room in my old house and the bass was down some obscene amount, like 15db at 30Hz.  I rearranged everything and remeasured and gained 10db at 30 Hz.  Moreover, my current room has a large hump at about 160 Hz (same system, same everything but room).  It's very hard to take measurements that aren't subjected to these room interactions.  The only thing you could do is take two sets of speakers, one set with the mods and one without, leave everything the same (except changing speakers) and then measure the differences.  And even then, if you take 10 people and put them in the center position, you might have 3 like one set and 7 like another.  

I plan on testing my speakers before any type of modification and after any modification, but this is only for my own interest.  What the end result is what sounds good, not some lines on a piece of paper.