[launche]

They better get the better refs back because someone is going to get killed out there.  The calls are really bad but the hits I'm seeing seem to be regressing in term of the so called player safety policies.  The hit Schaub took was one of the most vicious I've seen in real time.  I surely thought he was out and would probably say to himself I'm never playing football again.  Somehow he was back on the field after only losing a piece of his ear but that looked very close to being a career ending hit. Seeing him lying there clutching his head looked really bad.  He's going to feel that in 10 years.

[Davey]

The NFL (even with the normal referees) is just too ridiculous to watch these days.  They have the game slowed to a crawl with all the commericals, non-playing clock time, reviewing the play time, TV commentator silliness, etc, etc.  It's just a joke.

I can't think of any sport (on TV) I wouldn't prefer to the NFL.

Dave.

[launche]

Dave,

Sounds like you might enjoy NFL Redzone, football watching on steroids. Pure heaven for many NFL junkies.

[MaxCast]

that was pretty lame.  But at least all three of my fantasy teams won. 

[chip]

these refs need to get out as mentioned the NFL has become a big joke now.....every game is now about what bizarre call are we going to see now....

I like some of the stuff I read on ESPN this morning -
One day after New England coach Bill Belichick was confused about a decisive field goal he thought was off-target and Detroit's Jim Schwartz couldn't understand a 27-yard penalty walk-off for unnecessary roughness, things had gotten even more chaotic.

"These games are a joke," Hall of Fame quarterback Troy Aikman tweeted.

McCarthy was measured in his postgame remarks.

"Most unusual football game I have been a part of," he said. "I know it's been a wild weekend in the NFL and I guess we are part of it."

Packers guard T.J. Lang was more emphatic, tweeting that the Packers were robbed "by the refs. Thanks NFL.



Wow this is even better - Tate denies pushing off http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000065986/article/golden-tate-denies-pushoff-on-seattle-seahawks-td

NFL to address Packers-Seahawks Hail Mary call Tues - http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000066116/article/nfl-will-address-hail-mary-call-on-tuesday?campaign=Twitter_atl

[satfrat]

these refs need to get out as mentioned the NFL has become a big joke now.....every game is now about what bizarre call are we going to see now....

NFL to address Packers-Seahawks Hail Mary call Tues - http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000066116/article/nfl-will-address-hail-mary-call-on-tuesday?campaign=Twitter_atl

WRONG! It's not the call that needs addressing, it's getting the professional referees back on the field! 

Monday night's call was just 1 very highlighted incident of what's been going on for 3 weeks now. Pete Rozelle says he wants to protect the players and the overall health of the game with his new player protection rules but there's no one out there to enforce them.

So anything Rozelle does other than getting the real ref's back on the playing fields is a just a sick joke. 

Cheers,
Robin

[Davey]

Pete Rozelle? 

The NFL Redzone might be an option......if I didn't have to pay for it.

The way I look at it......any sport that needs a DVR (in order to watch) has a problem.  Of course, the NFL is certainly not unique in that respect. 

Cheers,

Dave.

[jackman]

It was a bogus call, and posession should have gone to the Packers.  Golden Taint only had one hand on the ball.   A pass interference call on the last play would have been unlikely, even with the real ref's in place.  Everyone pushes and shoves in that situation (although Tate's push was pretty obvious). 

There have been so many bad calls this year with the replacement refs, I can't believe the league hasn't done something to resolve this mess.  Some of the late hits and chippy plays have been a disgrace and the missed calls or blown calls in several games have been difficult to watch.  Also, games are going way too long beause it takes them forever to review plays.  The "real" refs must be laughing their heads off because their negotiating leverage seems to get stronger with each passing week. 

Lastly, Redzone is awesome.  I do a similar thing on my DVR.  I tape the game and start watching after 45 minutes or so.  It helps me breeze through the crap and only watch the plays.  45 minutes is not enough time because I barely make it through the first quarter before I am back to live TV.  Football is the most successful sport but these guys are going to blow it.  The league needs to sit down with the union and put an end to this farce. 

Roger Goodel is the commissioner of the NFL, Robin.  Pete Roselle is long gone.  I make the same mistake myself!  Roselle was the commish for so long, it's easy to do.

[planet10]

The NFL (even with the normal referees) is just too ridiculous to watch these days.  They have the game slowed to a crawl with all the commericals, non-playing clock time, reviewing the play time, TV commentator silliness, etc, etc.  It's just a joke.

I gave up on the NFL anumber of years ago. Canadian football (CFL) is much more dynamic (still suffers from commercials but the DVR fast forward sorts that)

dave

[jimdgoulding]

It's the league of owners failure to comes to terms with the real ref's, right?  What a pathetic joke.  Any owners not multi-millionaires?  Losing money on their pro team investments, are they?

[S Clark]

Most of those owners really don't like unions.  I read that the whole thing is about 3 million $.  That's about the revenue that Jerry Jones makes off parking for one game.  It's personal and philosophical, not about money.

[jimdgoulding]

Most of thoses owners really don't like unions.  I read that the whole thing is about 3 million $.  That's about the revenue that Jerry Jones makes off parking for one game.  It's personal and philosophical, not about money.

it's even more cynical than I thought.  Whoa is us.

[S Clark]

it's even more cynical than I thought.  Whoa is us.

I went back and looked it up.  It's actually closer to 2 million bucks.  The owners want to cancel the current pension plan and put in partly funded 401k's.  Supposedly that is the key sticking point. Don't tell me its about the money with the owners.

[cujobob]

Games have been almost unwatchable because the refereeing is inconsistent and in many cases, just plain wrong. One second they'll call weak fouls (like sketchy pass interference or weak holding calls), then they'll let teams maul each other, and then at some point they'll start calling a lot of random stuff that they just allowed for two quarters. They spot a penalty wrong in overtime in the Lions game. The ball should have been at the 41 yard line after a debatable 15 yard penalty and it was placed at the 27. The team couldn't challenge because it was overtime. The rest of the game was just as bad, it was terrible. I watch Calvin Johnson get mauled on every play without a single pass interference called on the DBs.

I hate the Pats but I felt bad for them this weekend. They were up by 11 and the refs bailed the Ravens out time and time again with silly calls. They were just downright terrible. You have to wonder if some of these guys might have been paid off, too. If you wanted to fix a game, now would be the time to do it.

[Elizabeth]

It's the league of owners failure to comes to terms with the real ref's, right?  What a pathetic joke.  Any owners not multi-millionaires?  Losing money on their pro team investments, are they?

The Packers are wholly owned by the ordinary fans in Green Bay. The only team so owned.

[Letitroll98]

The Call.  Ok, before I get vilified by everyone here, I completely agreed the ref's blew the call and it was a Green Bay interception.  But I thought it very interesting that Tate ended up in possession of the ball at the very end of the scrum.  We couldn't see everything that happened in the ensuing pileup after the initial signal(s), but if Jennings had such a complete lock on possession, how did he give up the ball?  Therefore there can be an ever so small case made that there may be some doubt about dual possession or not.  Personally, if I had to make the call viewing only the video, it's Green Bay's ball.  But watching it live, before any replays, I had a 20-30% doubt that Tate might have had simultaneous possession.  And although I heard the rule read ad infinitum, are there any interpretations of the rule?  How much of the ball do you have to have to be dual possession?  So I went looking for answers.

Applicable rules to the play are as follows:

A player (or players) jumping in the air has not legally gained possession of the ball until he satisfies the elements of a catch listed here.

Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3 of the NFL Rule Book defines a catch:
A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:
(a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and
(b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and
(c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.).

When a player (or players) is going to the ground in the attempt to catch a pass, Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 1 states:
Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 5 states:

Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball.

So what does this mean?  The NFL has a Casebook that contains interpretations.  Here are some relevant ones.

A.R. 8.25: First-and-10 on A20. A2 and B3 simultaneously control a pass in the air at the A40. As they land, both players land on their feet and wrestle for the ball on their feet. Eventually, B3 takes the ball away from A2 and is tackled at the A38.

Ruling: B’s ball, first-and-10 on A38. Until one of the players in simultaneous possession of the ball goes to the ground or out of bounds, the ball remains alive.

A.R. 8.26: First-and-10 on A20. A2 and B3 simultaneously control a pass in the air at the A40. As they land, one or both players fall down to the ground.

Ruling: A’s ball, first-and-10 on A40. The ball is dead.

A.R. 8.29: First-and-10 on A20. B3 controls a pass in the air at the A40 before A2, who then also controls the ball before they land. As they land, A2 and B3 fall down to the ground.

Ruling: B’s ball, first-and-10 on A40. Not a simultaneous catch as B3 gains control first and retains control.

So it does not matter in the least that Jennings has the ball against his chest, only that both players have their hands on the ball when they hit the ground.  If you examine the replay both players have their hands on the ball when Tate's butt hits the turf, which is the exact moment the play is dead, so there is in fact simultaneous possession and the ball is awarded to the passers, Seattle.

THE REF'S GOT IT RIGHT??!?!?!

I am completely amazed by this as I would have bet a zillion dollars I was right last night, Green Bay got hosed.  But as near as I can make out from a laymans viewpoint, they got it right, Seattle actually won the game, for real.  Of course I'm completely willing to be overruled by any NFL referees on the board.





 

[cab]

Here is the important point:

It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control.

Looking at the video it is clear the Packer player had the ball in his control first. The Seahawk had one hand on the ball on the way down and never did clearly have both hands on the ball.

Never mind the offensive pi that wasn't called that would have made the whole issue moot....

[satfrat]

Guess I'm the only one who saw that the pass interference offender for Seattle never had his hands fully on the ball til after everyone had already hit the ground. 

Then again, I've never fully grasped Roger Goodell as the present commissioner.

Cheers,
Robin

[jimdgoulding]

I saw him foul and his arm off the ball both.  Everyone should have by now if they've watched the news or read the paper.  It was a terrible call.  One thing I am confused about, tho.  Was it actually reviewed upstairs? 

[Letitroll98]

All good points, lets try pass interference first.  This is never, ever called on the last play of the game with a hail mary in the endzone on either team, even with the regular refs, so that's moot and not relevant here. 

Possession cannot be reviewed, that's a call made on the field that stands as the ref calls it.  What was reviewed was whether it was a catch as defined by the rules above, and it was clearly a catch by one or both parties.

The sticky point here is joint possession in the air and as they hit the ground.  As I view it they both initially grab the ball at the same time.  Tate clearly loses one hand as they start to fall.  Tate regains both hands on the ball, then after that point his butt hits the ground with both players maintaining possession through the play.  As I read the rules, this is simultaneous possession with the ball awarded to the passing team.  However I'm certainly no expert, perhaps less than any of you, I looked this up on the web.  So your interpretation of these rules is every bit as valid as mine, but the key thing is to read the rules and interpretations, not judge what your heart and mind initially tells you.

And please, I'm with you guys.  By all that's holy in football it should be Green Bay's ball.  But going strictly by the letter of the rules, there's a strong case that the officials ruled correctly.