[James Romeyn]

To the OP: With my unique ambiance array the user must select between wiring two 8 Ohm monitors per channel either parallel (2.7 Ohm minimum @ 200 Hz, 4 Ohms flat above 600 Hz) or series (10.8 Ohm minimum @ 200 Hz, 16 Ohms flat above 600 Hz). 

After limited Ncore experience, it seems to sound more like an ordinary to somewhat better than average amp powering the former load, and what may be my very favorite all time amp powering the latter load.

So maybe bullets don't bounce off Ncore, maybe Ncore does not jump over tall buildings, and stop speeding locomotives after all!     

[*Scotty*]

doug, I am not saying this is what is happening in Paul's case, but in a system that has enough resolution, you can hear when you put another component upstream in the system. It may not be a case of Paul having a lame preamp. The best you can hope for from a perfect preamp is that it passes all of the information coming into it without any losses. Obviously, you are going to see some subtractive errors and this is the best case scenario. I think this is what Paul is alluding to in his commentary. He doesn't expect the preamp to make the system sound "better" after the signal has passed through it. I don't blame Paul for being reluctant to listen to a system that is degraded, how are you going to keep 'em down on the farm once they've been to 'Gay Paree'.
Scotty

[*Scotty*]

DaveC113, Paul doesn't necessarily have a power amp with too much gain and a preamps' job does not have to be voltage gain. There is more than one way to get the job done and get enough voltage gain in a system.
 
You are better off if you can keep your signal path as simple as possible. If your speakers have enough sensitivity you can eliminate the preamps gain stage and the parts count in the signal path that goes with. With the de facto industry standard from most digital sources set at 2volts out, this leaves you with only the job of attenuating the signal from the source to avoid clipping from the amplifier. This assumes that the amp has an input sensitivity of less than 2volts to produce full power output.
 
In my particular case, I have 95dB sensitive speakers and an amp with an input sensitivity of 1 volt for full power out. This lets me use a zero gain, zero feedback buffer to control volume, instead of a preamplifier with gain. It also allows me to reduce the parts count in the signal path. My buffer has only one active device in the signal path and the power amplifier has five active devices, for a grand total of six. The KISS rule of engineering actually does yield benefits if you stick to it.
Scotty

[doug s.]

i guess, as discussed earlier, it depends on whether you want to be more faithful to the the recording, or to the music itself.     imo, a good preamp gets you closer to the music, than w/o one.

as always, ymmv

doug s.

[medium jim]

This thread is now about Paul's thoughts on preamps?  This thread has had more twists and turns than even the fabled Lombard Street in beautiful San Francisco.

Jim

[DaveC113]

DaveC113, Paul doesn't necessarily have a power amp with too much gain and a preamps' job does not have to be voltage gain. There is more than one way to get the job done and get enough voltage gain in a system.
 
You are better off if you can keep your signal path as simple as possible. If your speakers have enough sensitivity you can eliminate the preamps gain stage and the parts count in the signal path that goes with. With the de facto industry standard from most digital sources set at 2volts out, this leaves you with only the job of attenuating the signal from the source to avoid clipping from the amplifier. This assumes that the amp has an input sensitivity of less than 2volts to produce full power output.
 
In my particular case, I have 95dB sensitive speakers and an amp with an input sensitivity of 1 volt for full power out. This lets me use a zero gain, zero feedback buffer to control volume, instead of a preamplifier with gain. It also allows me to reduce the parts count in the signal path. My buffer has only one active device in the signal path and the power amplifier has five active devices, for a grand total of six. The KISS rule of engineering actually does yield benefits if you stick to it.
Scotty

Well, my perspective is from building tube equipment. In my 2 stage SET amp, there are compromises that will need to be made if you want enough gain without an active pre, such as a higher gain driver tube that is less linear. I use a lower gain driver that is more linear and capable of handling a lot more current than higher gain alternatives, therefore I need a preamp with gain... or a 3 stage amplifier... or a 2 stage that makes some sonic compromises to have enough gain.

IMO, it is better to have a quality 3 stage amplification system rather than the compromised 2 stage. A high quality preamp with it's own separate power supply can perform voltage gain more cleanly than an integrated amp with a 3 stage design and one power supply for all 3 stages.

And I believe this sticks with the KISS principle, which I agree with. I have half the active devices in the signal path as you, and I hear tubes can be pretty linear. 

But since this thread is about digital amps, the design considerations are going to be very different vs tubes.... I will stick with my tubes for now. I know very little about class D vs class A amplification.

Oh, also I still think Paul has an amp with too much gain if it can't switch sources and volume and he wants to use it with an active preamp. Seems like the issue is gain structure, not how many chassis the amplification is in. I mean, if you wanted to you could have a bunch of separate chassis for each amplification device and each power supply. If they are monoblocks you could easily have your amplification in many different chassis. I think the proof is in the result, whether or not the designer thinks there is a benefit to multiple chassis depends on his design choices and one alternative (a single chassis for everything) may or may not be best.

[*Scotty*]

I think one of the key things to take away from Paul's comments is to realize that he is not listening for pleasure. He is doing product research and development where the goal is to hear and understand the impact a given circuit design has the sound of a product. He has to control or eliminate as many variables as he can in order for his research to yield meaningful data. The preamp in this case can be a liability and not an asset.
Scotty

[OzarkTom]

what a load of b$  paul (or you?) obviously don't have a good preamp.  and the analogy is not a good analogy.  are you trying to get through the listening session as quickly as possible?    

a better analogy would be the new road that takes you the same amount of time, but also has much nicer scenery.  i.e.: using a quality preamp instead of doing w/o. 

ymmv,

doug s.

Ya talking to me? Ya talking to me?

As a dealer I sold Threshold, David Berning, Melos, PS Audio, Counterpoint, Conrad Johnson, Levinson, Rowland, Classe, Cary, Spectral, Sumo, Bedini, Acoustat, to name a few. I also took a lot of trades so I also had Krell and Audio Research at my disposal. Maybe you are right. None of these companies ever made a good preamp.

I currently use the AMR DP-777 Dac/Pre and love it. But I am certain an amp/pre/dac would sound even better. That alone would get rid of another set of cables.

[doug s.]

tom, i guess we must simply agree to disagree...   

doug s.

[James Romeyn]

Is this the thread about my last Home Owner's Association meeting? 

[doug s.]

Is this the thread about my last Home Owner's Association meeting?

   that's why i will never live in a hoa community.  it's one thing for us to disagree about our stereos, but at least we don't require others to listen to music thru equipment we listen thru.   

doug s.

[jackman]

I don't mind the bickering and name calling but enough of the preamp discussion. Start your own thread if you want to talk preamps. This is about Ncore, from the perspective of non Kool-Aid drinking non-fanboys, not goofs talking preamps. There you go, I've just supplied the title of your preamp thread, should you choose to start one. Maybe a guy who I wil not mention will chime in with speculation as to how the Ncore will play with he opto-mom preamp.

Let's stay focused and get back to the Ncore discussion. No Kool-aid allowed around here.

[James Romeyn]

  that's why i will never live in a hoa community.  it's one thing for us to disagree about our stereos, but at least we don't require others to listen to music thru equipment we listen thru.   

doug s.

With peaks hovering round 110 dB or more (Peter Gabriel) in this basement sound room, I stood outside, above the only light well upstairs.  Standing just several feet from the light well at the wall of the house next door, even the bass was acceptably damped.   

[doug s.]

With peaks hovering round 110 dB or more (Peter Gabriel) in this basement sound room, I stood outside, above the only light well upstairs.  Standing just several feet from the light well at the wall of the house next door, even the bass was acceptably damped.   

spl's are only one issue w/hoa's.  then, there's what you can have on your porch, what color front door is acceptable, what color can you paint the house, what antenna can you put on your roof, what can be in your driveway, whether you can have an amp in your system that isn't an n-core...   

doug s.

[medium jim]

Geez, this effing thread has now morphed to an HOA discussion.  I'm the VP of my HOA, nobody dare complains about how loud I play my music!

Jim

[Bjorn]

My experience is this:
In a setup with obvious weaknesses like uneven frequency response (often lack of midbass and warmth), high gain colored reflections and poor off-axis response a colored amp is often necessary for it to sound decent. In some ways it covers the flaws of the system. But the system never reaches great heights.

A very good and balanced setup however sounds best with an amp that adds/subtracts as little as possible.  In a setup like this a colored amp will often be experienced to alter the sound in a negative way.
With some very poor recordings the colored amp might come out better but not overall with a variery of music.

The problem IMO is that not many has heard a great and balanced setup and often have serious flaws in their systems. Most commercial speakers aren't that great really and few have both the possibility and knowledge of how to treat a room properly. Even hiring someone that one may seem like an "expert" doesn't necessarily get one there.

[barrows]

Bjorn, agreed on all of your points RE: coloration/tonality.  But this does not address what I found to be the weakness of the nCore, not a coloration, or tonal issue, but a lack of detail in the high frequencies.

[sts9fan]

My HOA limits super large guady NCore logos!
Just kidding I would never live in a place like that.

[Bjorn]

Bjorn, agreed on all of your points RE: coloration/tonality.  But this does not address what I found to be the weakness of the nCore, not a coloration, or tonal issue, but a lack of detail in the high frequencies.

The question is then; Does the lack of detail in the highs you experience come from Ncore, your speakers/room or/and being custom to too much from other amps. Very difficult to know, but I believe measurements gives a better answer then anything.

A problem with many speakers is they get narrower in the top frequencies. This may give less reflections from the room, but it can also make the sound a bit dull. Especially if the room has more absorption of the highs then in the mids and lows, and that's very common.

[Occam]

The question is then; Does the lack of detail in the highs you experience come from Ncore, your speakers/room or/and being custom to too much from other amps. Very difficult to know, but I believe measurements gives a better answer then anything....

If you can find a objective measure that corresponds to the reported subjective lack of treble detail, more power to ya....

I've replaced the provided Mogami 2791 input cabling on my Nc400s with my own twisted pair shielded cable and got a substantial increase in subjective treble detail. Subsequently, Hypex has changed their input harness cable to their own custom sourced cable. It would be interesting to compare the original Hypex Mogami cable harness to their new input cable harness.
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