Thoughts on the sound from those who aren't Kool-Aid drinking fanboys.

jackman · « **on:** 22 Jul 2012, 04:37 pm »

Great thread! Please help me understand the overwhelming theme of this thread: if someone loves the Ncore, it's because they are the best amps ever invented and the person has a fine appreciation for undistorted, accurate perfection. If they prefer another amp or if they like the sound of another amp over the Ncore, it's because they prefer colored, distorted sound. Did I get that right?

genjamon · « **Reply #1 on:** 22 Jul 2012, 04:57 pm »

Well, that's certainly been expressed by some. Sme have been finding a sonic signature, but others have wondered if they aren't hearing the sonic signature of their other components in new ways given the low distortion of Ncore. Then there are those on the Ncore improvements thread talking about effects of various capacitor, cable, and other choices on sound character. I wouldn't say there's a clear conclusion yet other than that they are really clean and transparent and competitive with pretty elite amps, but not perfect and maybe not for everyone.

Tyson · « **Reply #2 on:** 22 Jul 2012, 04:59 pm »

My thoughts are that the Ncore is an awesome solid state amp. But at the end of the day, it's still solid state. For me, tubes just sound better.

Occam · « **Reply #3 on:** 22 Jul 2012, 05:32 pm »

Hey Jack,

I realize you're being somewhat facetious, but yup, I think you've got it about right.

Analytically, for many reasons, most of them quite objective, I prefer the Ncores as a tool for the evaluation of cables. Its what I do, and for me, it makes changes to cables quite easily discernible. After a couple of weeks with the Ncores, I came to the conclusion that I would be selling my Aksa. Now, 2 months in, I'm not sure. Given my experience with my specific implementation of the Ncore 400s, save for bass, I still prefer that physical/emotional connection I get from my Aksa Lifeforce. It simply makes me want to dance. Thankfully, at my age, the dancing is in my shoes. So, I'm finally going to change the input cabling on the Aksa (talk about the shoemaker's children

) and muck about to see if I can improve upon some characteristics highlighted from my time with the Ncores, while hopefully keeping that emotional connection.

Do I care that my libertine self prefers the more distorted sound? No, not as long as I don't perceive that distortion as such. When folks describe the Lightspeed LDR attenuator's [ or my tubed EAR Acute III cd player/dac ] sound as transparent, resolving, cohesive, detailed, etc... I know that this is a valid subjective perception that doesn't correlate all that well with those metrics that one would typically associate with those adjectives, objectively. Even those more sophisticated LDR implementations from Constellation and DartZeel, would have lower distortion if they simply used switched resistors. Yup, I know were not measuring the right things..... whatever.

That was the long answer, short answer, yes.

FWIW, YMMV,
Paul

EDIT: What I'd really like to try, but couldn't for many reasons, is swap out the Ncore 400's discrete instrumentation amps inputs for one using monolithic OPA2107s op amps.

ted_b · « **Reply #4 on:** 22 Jul 2012, 05:42 pm »

Quote from: jackman on 22 Jul 2012, 04:37 pm

Great thread! Please help me understand the overwhelming theme of this thread: if someone loves the Ncore, it's because they are the best amps ever invented and the person has a fine appreciation for undistorted, accurate perfection. If they prefer another amp or if they like the sound of another amp over the Ncore, it's because they prefer colored, distorted sound. Did I get that right?

All amplifiers (or any piece of equipment) impart a sound, even the $400 Ncore modules. And modded Ncores, and Ncore's next gen updates, etc. Some like the sound, some like other amps sounds. I think it's fair to note that most of us who haven't run out and bought Ncores after hearing them were still astounded by their taking Class D to an all new level.

jackman · « **Reply #5 on:** 22 Jul 2012, 05:45 pm »

Thanks guys! I was being a bit facetious and appreciate your comments. Tyson, I hope to hear your system someday! Occam, thanks for the detailed answer. I don't want to get philosophical, but it boils down to our true objective. Are we more interested in some quantitative measurements, analytical data or are we interested in what sounds best to us?

Let me know if you ever decide to sell that AKSA!

Cheers

Jack

brj · « **Reply #6 on:** 22 Jul 2012, 06:26 pm »

Quote from: jackman

or are we interested in what sounds best to us?

I think that is what has irked me a bit about the Ncore furor. More than a handful of folks have lionized the Ncore as the perfect amp (whether for objective or subjective reasons), irrespective of personal preference. I've heard it, and it's a very good amp and I very much admire both Bruno's expertise and his support of the DIY community, but this is a hobby ruled by personal preference. There is no "right" answer for all comers and no amp or even amp topology will be "best" for all systems and all preferences. Frankly, it'd be a boring hobby if it was.

And to avoid veering too far off topic, I was impressed when I auditioned the Ncore, but thought it was slightly too hot on top compared to my Pass XA30.5 that I heard in the same system during the same session. While I've heard the audition system more than once, I'm certainly not as familiar with it as my own system, and would withhold final judgement of the Ncore until I'd had a chance to live with in my system for a while. (The Ncore owner has since swapped out the binding posts on the Ncore, apparently to good effect, along with several other components in his system.)

The comparison I'd dearly love to hear would be the Ncore vs. the Pass XA30.5 vs. the new First Watt SIT based amps...

roscoeiii · « **Reply #7 on:** 22 Jul 2012, 06:59 pm »

What binding posts did the owner swap out for? I found myself wondering how the tour's ncore would sound with some nice solid Cardas speaker binding posts.

studley · « **Reply #8 on:** 22 Jul 2012, 07:25 pm »

Quote from: brj on 22 Jul 2012, 06:26 pm

The comparison I'd dearly love to hear would be the Ncore vs. the Pass XA30.5 vs. the new First Watt SIT based amps...

I'm with you 100% on that. I'm a big First Watt fan and it's clear that from nelson's own comments and those of people who have heard the SIT amps that they are truly extraordinary. Making references to the best amps on the planet is a futile exercise but if you were going to draw up a short list for a shoot out . . .

earflappin · « **Reply #9 on:** 22 Jul 2012, 07:42 pm »

Quote from: jackman on 22 Jul 2012, 05:45 pm

Are we more interested in some quantitative measurements, analytical data or are we interested in what sounds best to us?

I would agree with this statement, but from a cost and flexibility standpoint I wonder if this goal is not better achieved in many cases (not all) through a PRE/DSP where one can select different "character" filters to suit their mood, taste and even recordings.

My Metric Halo LIO-8 has a character function that includes some pretty decent tube emulators and from playing around with FIR and IIR filters on a new DAC this weekend it is clear to me how much effect they have on SQ.

Swapping in and out expensive amps, cables, etc. is one way and in some cases perhaps the only way for some, but another I think is to put in place as neutral a front end as possible and then use the last active component in the chain to "adjust to your taste". This is what some guys are doing in effect with the NCORE - using tube pre-amps to achieve a sound quality to suit their taste.

zybar · « **Reply #10 on:** 22 Jul 2012, 08:30 pm »

Quote from: brj on 22 Jul 2012, 06:26 pm

I think that is what has irked me a bit about the Ncore furor. More than a handful of folks have lionized the Ncore as the perfect amp (whether for objective or subjective reasons), irrespective of personal preference. I've heard it, and it's a very good amp and I very much admire both Bruno's expertise and his support of the DIY community, but this is a hobby ruled by personal preference. There is no "right" answer for all comers and no amp or even amp topology will be "best" for all systems and all preferences. Frankly, it'd be a boring hobby if it was.

And to avoid veering too far off topic, I was impressed when I auditioned the Ncore, but thought it was slightly too hot on top compared to my Pass XA30.5 that I heard in the same system during the same session. While I've heard the audition system more than once, I'm certainly not as familiar with it as my own system, and would withhold final judgement of the Ncore until I'd had a chance to live with in my system for a while. (The Ncore owner has since swapped out the binding posts on the Ncore, apparently to good effect, along with several other components in his system.)

The comparison I'd dearly love to hear would be the Ncore vs. the Pass XA30.5 vs. the new First Watt SIT based amps...

The reality is that only a few people were over the top and made outlandish and silly statements. It was quite easy to take their comments and posts and just move them to the side. The rest of the comments were in line with what you would expect to read from people auditioning or buying new gear.

I want to again thank Jason for providing the opportunity to hear the amps and determine if they were something I wanted to go forward with.

George

playntheblues · « **Reply #11 on:** 22 Jul 2012, 08:34 pm »

I agree with George, this long long topic is about listening impressions not impressions about how you feel about someone else's listening impressions. Come on guys!

Nick77 · « **Reply #12 on:** 22 Jul 2012, 09:58 pm »

Quote from: roscoeiii on 22 Jul 2012, 06:59 pm

What binding posts did the owner swap out for? I found myself wondering how the tour's ncore would sound with some nice solid Cardas speaker binding posts.

+1

I thought the amps sounded great and i miss their authoritative grip on the low end but they lacked that last little sparkle, that may have been as simple as copper binding posts or eliminating the RCA adapters.

jackman · « **Reply #13 on:** 22 Jul 2012, 10:05 pm »

Hi guys, I'm not saying the recent reviews are like the over the top nonsense we were treated to in the early days if this thread, but there is a subtle but prevalent attitude among many that the Ncore represents perfection and that anyone who prefers another amp must like distortion or colored sound.

The Ncore is very good sounding, but I can imagine someone preferring another amp. Even one that doesnt measure as well as the Ncore. Just sayin...

Tyson · « **Reply #14 on:** 22 Jul 2012, 10:45 pm »

I like distorted and colored sound.

jtwrace · « **Reply #15 on:** 22 Jul 2012, 10:49 pm »

OK guys thanks for the input but once again lets keep it to tour impressions.

RCduck7 · « **Reply #16 on:** 22 Jul 2012, 11:16 pm »

Quote from: Tyson on 22 Jul 2012, 10:45 pm

I like distorted and colored sound.

Did you ever try a good solid state or Class-D amp with a tube pre-amp or with a tube buffer combo?? I have been playing some time with that idea? I like the pure, neutral uncolored sound and dynamics the best of these type of amps can give. But it might be the best of both worlds combined when mixing some tubes before the amplification.

Barry_NJ · « **Reply #17 on:** 22 Jul 2012, 11:55 pm »

Jason, Maybe split out the musings in here to a thread dedicated to that... "Musings on the NCore Sound"(?)

Rclark · « **Reply #18 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 12:18 am »

It does seem like the guys intent on making this all to do about nothing did have an axe to grind from the beginning, before even hearing them. It's like all glowing reviews, and on DIY dozens of them, and then here you get to this cluster you almost expected. Which out of the blue gets reiterated. As though there is an axe to grind. Just sayin.

jtwrace · « **Reply #19 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 12:29 am »

Post here.