[rollo]

   As an observor not an N-Core owner I'm trying to get an idea of the character the Amp in different systems. Since all systems are different it would be helpfull to know ALL the associated gear used in each case. We all know that everything makes a difference. What changed when the N-core was inserted ? 
Is it Neutral ? Colored ? Thin ? Dynamic ?  detailed ? What ? We can only learn what the N-Core does in our systems.
   Currently using  Hybrid [ 6H30 for input ] Class "D" Mono Blocks [ Cyber 211s  resting at this time ] with Pipedream Speakers and Loesch & Weisner  tubed Preamp.
    So maybe a direct comparison to the amp used before the N-core graced your systen might be more helpfull in understanding the character of the N- Core.
    How about an "A" to "B" to "A" comparison to your original amp and a report back. Curious minds want to know.
     



charles

[medium jim]

   As an observor not an N-Core owner I'm trying to get an idea of the character the Amp in different systems. Since all systems are different it would be helpfull to know ALL the associated gear used in each case. We all know that everything makes a difference. What changed when the N-core was inserted ? 
Is it Neutral ? Colored ? Thin ? Dynamic ?  detailed ? What ? We can only learn what the N-Core does in our systems.
   Currently using  Hybrid [ 6H30 for input ] Class "D" Mono Blocks [ Cyber 211s  resting at this time ] with Pipedream Speakers and Loesch & Weisner  tubed Preamp.
    So maybe a direct comparison to the amp used before the N-core graced your systen might be more helpfull in understanding the character of the N- Core.
    How about an "A" to "B" to "A" comparison to your original amp and a report back. Curious minds want to know.
     
charles

The problem with what you are asking for is that on the Ncore tour(s), each participant has the Ncores for no more than 3 days....all the back and forth would actually be a detraction.  Now, if the listener/participant had say a week if might be practical. 

I think most are telling you what their system is and that for the most part they're directly inserting the Ncores in lieu of their own amp(s).

20/20 is stupidity, but the Ncores should have been sent to a couple of professional reviewers for inclusion in their respective magazines and given the full treatment.  It would have validated one side or the other....

Jim

[jackman]

There is no perfect evaluation system.  Ideally, it would be great to have the amps for a week or two, but that would not be practical or fair to JT, who was nice enough to lend his personal units out to the AC folks. 

My time with the NCore amps was not long enough to provide a complete and detailed review, but I was extremely impressed by their performance in Roscoe's system.  Compared to my Coda amp, the NCore had much tighter and deeper bass, mids had a bit less weight but that's not necessarily a bad thing, and high frequencies were realistic with excellent shimmer and extension.  More importantly (to me at least) the image was rock-solid and very three dimensional, compared to the other amp.  Everything was balanced and I was really enjoying the sound of the system with the NCore amps. 

The NCore amps sounded great with Roscoe's SS high end MF preamp and maybe a bit better (at least no worse) with his budget tube preamp (forgot brand).  All of the music we demo'd was on vinyl and I can't imagine anything sounding less than good on Roscoe's beautiful analog system, but the NCore stood out, particularly in the lower region.  The little NCore amps had a death grip on those woofers, but saying they are amps with "great bass control" sells the NCore short.   The NCore amps exceeded my expectations.   I encourage anyone in the market to take them for a test drive. 

Cheers,

Jack

PS - this is coming from the guy who started the smart-a$$ thread.  I've stated from the start that I'm a fan of NCore and plan to build a set.  I just wanted this to be a place where people could exchange ideas and comments without being badgered or questioned by the couple kool-aid boys who felt the need to pee in the punch bowl.  You have the right to NOT like the NCore but I don't think it's fair for people to slam them if you have never heard them.  This just makes you look foolish, IMO.   I try to be open minded and it didn't take long for the NCore to impress me. 

[roscoeiii]

Well put Jack. I'd agree with all of what you wrote. Yes, I do think that the pairing with the MF kW preamp (a hybrid design, not SS; but more SS sounding in character and with a crazy low output impedance), wasn't as good as the Little Dot MkVI (a balanced tube headphone amp/preamp that usually powers my HE-5LEs).

[doug s.]

...the Ncores should have been sent to a couple of professional reviewers for inclusion in their respective magazines and given the full treatment.  It would have validated one side or the other....

i totally disagree w/this statement.  while i enjoy reading some professional rewiewers' writings, i think their opinions would give no more walidation to "one side or the other" than what is already there.

ymmv,

doug s.

[medium jim]

doug s:

It would as it would be outside of the fish tank and there wouldn't be any built in biases or such.  Too many here have too much investment to be totally objective, from both sides of the fence.

Jim

[Occam]

doug s:

It would as it would be outside of the fish tank and there wouldn't be any built in biases or such.  Too many here have too much investment to be totally objective, from both sides of the fence.

Jim

Jim - I find your credulity absolutely delightful! Misplaced, but charming, nevertheless...

[medium jim]

Occam:

It would be delightful if my credulity was indeed misplaced, I've been around too long and have seen all of the greatest things come along only to have something else replace it as the flavor of the month.

It is too easy to get caught up in ground swell.  Time will tell.

Jim

[Freo-1]

There is no perfect evaluation system.  Ideally, it would be great to have the amps for a week or two, but that would not be practical or fair to JT, who was nice enough to lend his personal units out to the AC folks. 

My time with the NCore amps was not long enough to provide a complete and detailed review, but I was extremely impressed by their performance in Roscoe's system.  Compared to my Coda amp, the NCore had much tighter and deeper bass, mids had a bit less weight but that's not necessarily a bad thing, and high frequencies were realistic with excellent shimmer and extension.  More importantly (to me at least) the image was rock-solid and very three dimensional, compared to the other amp.  Everything was balanced and I was really enjoying the sound of the system with the NCore amps. 

The NCore amps sounded great with Roscoe's SS high end MF preamp and maybe a bit better (at least no worse) with his budget tube preamp (forgot brand).  All of the music we demo'd was on vinyl and I can't imagine anything sounding less than good on Roscoe's beautiful analog system, but the NCore stood out, particularly in the lower region.  The little NCore amps had a death grip on those woofers, but saying they are amps with "great bass control" sells the NCore short.   The NCore amps exceeded my expectations.   I encourage anyone in the market to take them for a test drive. 

Cheers,

Jack

PS - this is coming from the guy who started the smart-a$$ thread.  I've stated from the start that I'm a fan of NCore and plan to build a set.  I just wanted this to be a place where people could exchange ideas and comments without being badgered or questioned by the couple kool-aid boys who felt the need to pee in the punch bowl.  You have the right to NOT like the NCore but I don't think it's fair for people to slam them if you have never heard them.  This just makes you look foolish, IMO.   I try to be open minded and it didn't take long for the NCore to impress me.

 
Jack, you and I will get into it once football season starts (and why not, that’s part of the fun of being a fan).   
 

As far this thread goes, agree with your thoughts on this.  Glad you started it.
 
A couple of things worth mentioning:
1) The Ncore hype is pretty much limited to this sight and some over on DIY.  So, that needs to be factored in.  I do not see evidence that the larger audio community has fully embraced it (yet).
2) Not everyone who has heard the amp was impressed.  I know of a couple of well respected folks (with good audio credentials) who listened to it and were not impressed.  The feedback was along the lines of the Ncore lacking soul and body of sound, super detailed to the point of sounding artificial.  As they say, "Horses For Courses". 
 

After an impressive evaluation of the 32 wpc TBI Millenia MG3 Class D amp on a SLA battery, my interest is really piqued to hear the Ncores on my speakers to see how they sound. 

[Occam]

Occam:

It would be delightful if my credulity was indeed misplaced, I've been around too long and have seen all of the greatest things come along only to have something else replace it as the flavor of the month.

It is too easy to get caught up in ground swell.  Time will tell.

Jim

Jim,

I certainly don't dispute your contention about enthusiastic groundswells. My point is simply that a professional reviewer's comments are subject to those same issues of momentum, as well as the occasionally with some specific reviewers the difficulty of making a valid evaluation with their head so far up their arse that with their ears covered, I certainly can understand their evaluation differing so greatly from mine. It is generally known and accepted that reviewers receive industry accommodation pricing, but regardless of a publications stated guidelines, some reviewers expect a permanent loan and that that 'loaned' component will end up on Audiogon. [NONE of the reviewers who post on AC do so, to my knowledge] A professional reviewer's writings are IMO, useless unless one has heard some the same components that they've written about, offering the opportunity to calibrate their opinions against yours.
That being said, as I've heard Mike Galusha's system, and we've had much opportunity to calibrate our own opinions against the others, I trust Mike's opinions far more than any reviewers. YMMV

FWIW,
Paul

EDIT: BUT WAIT! THERE'S MORE Mike Galusha is a professional reviewer
http://www.stereomojo.com/FletcherHaynes_Kokopele_Monoblock_Amplifers_review.htm/FletcherHaynesKokopeleMonoblockAmplifersreview.htm
So not only is mike a DIYer extrodinaire, as well as a bon vivant, raconteur, but a genuine perfeshun'l revoo'r. Is youse happy now?

[medium jim]

Paul:

No doubt that there have been several conscientious reviews by fellow AC'ers, yet many have been subject to confirmation bias and ground swell.

The Ncores are flying under the radar as far as the rest of the audio community and while many if the professional reviewers are just that, hired guns, there still are some that still have ethics, one would be Steven Stone, who is also a AC Member.  Maybe he could be included as the 13th participant of the 2nd tour.

Jim

[doug s.]

doug s:

It would as it would be outside of the fish tank and there wouldn't be any built in biases or such.  Too many here have too much investment to be totally objective, from both sides of the fence.

Jim

ya - commercial rewiewers never have any built-in biases or such.  and they are always totally objective - they have nothing inwested in this hobby, after all it's a business for them, not a hobby - so why wouldn't they be totally objective?  silly me - what was i thinking?!? 

doug s.

[doug s.]

...many have been subject to confirmation bias and ground swell...

regarding those who have listened to the ncores, this is nothing but 100% pure speculation on your part.

doug s.

[medium jim]

Doug S

I love how you like to stir the pot.   ymmv...

Jim

[genjamon]

Well, let me attempt to provide a bit of a balanced review with plenty of background, and maybe you guys can give me some advice.  I've been using Ncores most of the summer, although fairly infrequently.  I just don't have the time to sit and listen as much as I used to given some lifestyle changes.  Anyway...

I have Tekton Lores, unmodified, and also using Tranquility SE with upgraded output stage, DB Labs SE USB cable, Mac Mini with SSD and 8GB RAM, Decibel player, and Ed Schilling's The Truth photocell buffer pre.  The Ncores have substituted for a Dayens Ampino. 

For me, the Ncores greatly enhance soundstage depth and imaging over the Ampino.  Microdynamic details are also much greater.  It's also smoother and very grain free.  There's no noise.  Yet, I have to agree with some of the comments about some of the "magic" not being there.  I've noted over a half dozen or so listening sessions over the past month or so a lack of presence that I really value.  That "electricity" of a Stevie Ray Vaughn guitar in the air, or the real snap of drums or whatever.  I just can't make that Ween: Live in Chicago album sound as "live" as I'm used to, despite all the greater spatial resolution and dynamic details and such.  Same with the Martin Sexton: Live Wide Open album.  To a degree, it's like I'm listening to really well produced recorded music, but the music isn't live and in the room with me the way I would like and feel like I've heard at points in my past system evolution. 

I was reading the Darko review of WLM Stella floorstanders yesterday (http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2011/03/wlm-stella-floorstanding-loudspeaker/) and found myself really resonating with the following aside on amplifier matching:

"I re-imagined the more PRaT-centric amplifiers of months gone by.  Consider a Naim Nait 5i:  a simple and highly-regarded integrated amplifier, it has the power, the bounce, the grit, the sheer electrification to set these small floorstanders alight.  Musing theoretically for a monent: if you like more pepper in your sauce, the Nait 5i might be the saucier for the job.  Halving the amplifier spend again, the (also Serbian) Dayens Ampino would grit the treble with a hint of electric salt; it takes the smooth from ATC SCM 11 tweeter.  Some loudspeakers require a salt lick and citrus suck to get them away from the safety haven of words like “classy” and/or “nice” and provide more of that tequila headrush.  Who wants “nice”?  Nice guys don’t the get the girl.  The ATC SCM 11 are such a product – the Ampino airlifted them from Pleasantville.  The WLM’s midrange cleanliness is easily the match of this Brit rival.  The SCM series’ lack of top-end air is their only weakness – if only they shipped with a tweeter lemon twist."

I feel like the Ncore make my system really improves on many aspects of my system, but it does go too far into that territory of clean, "classy", and "nice" as he says.  The control Ncores offer does remove the raw energy or the "saltiness" of the Ampino as he puts it. 

Now, none of that is total news if you've been reading the other reviews.  Others have noted some of these characteristics in their systems, and one dialog on the tour impressions thread discussed the Ncores putting you in the middle of the hall rather than right up front.  They're not forward amps. 

Ok, so what of the rest of my system, then.  Is there a way of tweaking my system to be able to use all the great benefits of control, detail, lack of noise, soundstage/imaging, etc while also bringing back that "you are there" magic?

Tekton Lores - they're high efficiency, and pro-audio oriented main drivers handling most of the frequency band.  Ncore is class D with high damping factor and woofer control.  While that may be excellent news for many speakers, the Lores probably don't need ultra-high damping.  Maybe like that review mentioned with other speakers, the Ampino really is a great match because it brings that "electric" energy to the table that gives instruments a live presence in the room.  A suggestion I received from someone was that I could insert a resistor in series with my speaker outputs to reduce damping factor the speakers see from the amps.  Worth a try?  Or would that resistor just muck up the really high quality output of the Ncores?

The Truth pre - it's a unity gain buffer using some kind of photo cell to somehow adjust the gain of the buffer.  Maybe I need some more gain?  Perhaps a tube preamp?  I know I don't need more gain to drive the amps to the volume levels I need.  I never get that close to full output, with the speakers as high efficiency as they are.  And the Tranquility has plenty of voltage output so that it doesn't need extra gain.  But would some extra preamp gain help in juicing the dynamics and bringing back some of that energy?  Or would the right kind of modern tube preamp do the job?

Or is it that Ncore just aren't a great match with my high efficiency speakers?  Do I need to consider either moving on from Ncore or experimenting with some different speakers?  I've been in the low power high efficiency camp for a while, largely because I just can't handle the high energy consumption of lots of the gear out there and demands of speakers out there.  I'm trying to minimize my energy consumption throughout my lifestyle, and audiophilia is one of my few guilty pleasures on that front - but only to a point.  But the Ncore are efficient enough and have enough headroom that I could reasonably consider some less efficient speakers and it wouldn't make much difference on the energy consumption front.  They could be game-changers for me in opening up new worlds of speaker possibilities that I have previously ignored.  But then again, the new Red Wine Audio 15 watt integrated can be had for about as much as the Ncore modules and power supplies, and I seriously doubt I need more than 15 watts for 98db speakers in my room.

How was that for a review with some context?  Did I miss anything? Any advice for me?

[Freo-1]

   As an observor not an N-Core owner I'm trying to get an idea of the character the Amp in different systems. Since all systems are different it would be helpfull to know ALL the associated gear used in each case. We all know that everything makes a difference. What changed when the N-core was inserted ? 
Is it Neutral ? Colored ? Thin ? Dynamic ?  detailed ? What ? We can only learn what the N-Core does in our systems.
   Currently using  Hybrid [ 6H30 for input ] Class "D" Mono Blocks [ Cyber 211s  resting at this time ] with Pipedream Speakers and Loesch & Weisner  tubed Preamp.
    So maybe a direct comparison to the amp used before the N-core graced your systen might be more helpfull in understanding the character of the N- Core.
    How about an "A" to "B" to "A" comparison to your original amp and a report back. Curious minds want to know.
     



charles

 
That’s pretty hard to capture into words.  One persons detail and clarity is someone else’s idea of an ear bleeder.  How amps react to the impedance swings with a speaker in a given room plays a large part of the how the sound is perceived. 

While the Ncore has plenty of power, how it (or any amp, for that manner) will sound reproducing the entire frequency spectrum in your system is a bit harder to assess.  Measurements can get you part of the way there, but in the final analysis, you need to have the target amp with your system in your room to accurately work out if you are going to like it or not. 

[Freo-1]

Well, let me attempt to provide a bit of a balanced review with plenty of background, and maybe you guys can give me some advice.  I've been using Ncores most of the summer, although fairly infrequently.  I just don't have the time to sit and listen as much as I used to given some lifestyle changes.  Anyway...

I have Tekton Lores, unmodified, and also using Tranquility SE with upgraded output stage, DB Labs SE USB cable, Mac Mini with SSD and 8GB RAM, Decibel player, and Ed Schilling's The Truth photocell buffer pre.  The Ncores have substituted for a Dayens Ampino. 

For me, the Ncores greatly enhance soundstage depth and imaging over the Ampino.  Microdynamic details are also much greater.  It's also smoother and very grain free.  There's no noise.  Yet, I have to agree with some of the comments about some of the "magic" not being there.  I've noted over a half dozen or so listening sessions over the past month or so a lack of presence that I really value.  That "electricity" of a Stevie Ray Vaughn guitar in the air, or the real snap of drums or whatever.  I just can't make that Ween: Live in Chicago album sound as "live" as I'm used to, despite all the greater spatial resolution and dynamic details and such.  Same with the Martin Sexton: Live Wide Open album.  To a degree, it's like I'm listening to really well produced recorded music, but the music isn't live and in the room with me the way I would like and feel like I've heard at points in my past system evolution. 

I was reading the Darko review of WLM Stella floorstanders yesterday (http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2011/03/wlm-stella-floorstanding-loudspeaker/) and found myself really resonating with the following aside on amplifier matching:

"I re-imagined the more PRaT-centric amplifiers of months gone by.  Consider a Naim Nait 5i:  a simple and highly-regarded integrated amplifier, it has the power, the bounce, the grit, the sheer electrification to set these small floorstanders alight.  Musing theoretically for a monent: if you like more pepper in your sauce, the Nait 5i might be the saucier for the job.  Halving the amplifier spend again, the (also Serbian) Dayens Ampino would grit the treble with a hint of electric salt; it takes the smooth from ATC SCM 11 tweeter.  Some loudspeakers require a salt lick and citrus suck to get them away from the safety haven of words like “classy” and/or “nice” and provide more of that tequila headrush.  Who wants “nice”?  Nice guys don’t the get the girl.  The ATC SCM 11 are such a product – the Ampino airlifted them from Pleasantville.  The WLM’s midrange cleanliness is easily the match of this Brit rival.  The SCM series’ lack of top-end air is their only weakness – if only they shipped with a tweeter lemon twist."

I feel like the Ncore make my system really improves on many aspects of my system, but it does go too far into that territory of clean, "classy", and "nice" as he says.  The control Ncores offer does remove the raw energy or the "saltiness" of the Ampino as he puts it. 

Now, none of that is total news if you've been reading the other reviews.  Others have noted some of these characteristics in their systems, and one dialog on the tour impressions thread discussed the Ncores putting you in the middle of the hall rather than right up front.  They're not forward amps. 

Ok, so what of the rest of my system, then.  Is there a way of tweaking my system to be able to use all the great benefits of control, detail, lack of noise, soundstage/imaging, etc while also bringing back that "you are there" magic?

Tekton Lores - they're high efficiency, and pro-audio oriented main drivers handling most of the frequency band.  Ncore is class D with high damping factor and woofer control.  While that may be excellent news for many speakers, the Lores probably don't need ultra-high damping.  Maybe like that review mentioned with other speakers, the Ampino really is a great match because it brings that "electric" energy to the table that gives instruments a live presence in the room.  A suggestion I received from someone was that I could insert a resistor in series with my speaker outputs to reduce damping factor the speakers see from the amps.  Worth a try?  Or would that resistor just muck up the really high quality output of the Ncores?

The Truth pre - it's a unity gain buffer using some kind of photo cell to somehow adjust the gain of the buffer.  Maybe I need some more gain?  Perhaps a tube preamp?  I know I don't need more gain to drive the amps to the volume levels I need.  I never get that close to full output, with the speakers as high efficiency as they are.  And the Tranquility has plenty of voltage output so that it doesn't need extra gain.  But would some extra preamp gain help in juicing the dynamics and bringing back some of that energy?  Or would the right kind of modern tube preamp do the job?

Or is it that Ncore just aren't a great match with my high efficiency speakers?  Do I need to consider either moving on from Ncore or experimenting with some different speakers?  I've been in the low power high efficiency camp for a while, largely because I just can't handle the high energy consumption of lots of the gear out there and demands of speakers out there.  I'm trying to minimize my energy consumption throughout my lifestyle, and audiophilia is one of my few guilty pleasures on that front - but only to a point.  But the Ncore are efficient enough and have enough headroom that I could reasonably consider some less efficient speakers and it wouldn't make much difference on the energy consumption front.  They could be game-changers for me in opening up new worlds of speaker possibilities that I have previously ignored.  But then again, the new Red Wine Audio 15 watt integrated can be had for about as much as the Ncore modules and power supplies, and I seriously doubt I need more than 15 watts for 98db speakers in my room.

How was that for a review with some context?  Did I miss anything? Any advice for me?

Pretty darn good.   
 
With your speakers, you may wish to sign up for this tour:
 
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=108242.msg1120724;topicseen#new
 
Or, you could just buy a Pass Labs XA 30.5 and be done with it    (I'm joking)

[jackman]

Hi Freo,
You bring up some good points, and I'm not sure I know the answers to your questions, but, seeing as this is the internet and speculation is not only accepted, it is highly encouraged, I'm happy to give you a couple guesses! 

First, the NCore technology is new and only found in a DIY Kit and in a couple mega-expensive commercial amps that I'm not even sure are on the market yet.  There are some people who would NEVER build or use a DIY kit, no matter how easy it is to assemble or how much value it represents.  Also, there is no return policy if you blow it up and some possible safety issues some people are unwilling to risk (playing with electricity can be dangerous if you don't know what you are doing).   

After hearing the Ncore, I can understand some of the enthusiasm.  Are other amp manufacturers going to raise the white flag (unofficial flag of France)?  Not likely, but this technology represents another option for audiophiles to agonize over, and to debate.  Either way, it's worth trying because you might like it.  Of course, the same is true of many other designs.  Despite what some people would have you believe, only you know what sounds best to you.  There is no wrong answer.

[mgalusha]

Despite what some people would have you believe, only you know what sounds best to you.  There is no wrong answer.

Bingo

[doug s.]

Doug S

I love how you like to stir the pot.   ymmv...

Jim

you say i'm stirring the pot because i responded to what i consider to be a completely ridiculous, absurd, off the wall opinion?  that paid rewiewers will be more impartial than hobbyists?  that's an interesting take on it...

doug s.