[Freo-1]

Hi Freo,
You bring up some good points, and I'm not sure I know the answers to your questions, but, seeing as this is the internet and speculation is not only accepted, it is highly encouraged, I'm happy to give you a couple guesses! 

First, the NCore technology is new and only found in a DIY Kit and in a couple mega-expensive commercial amps that I'm not even sure are on the market yet.  There are some people who would NEVER build or use a DIY kit, no matter how easy it is to assemble or how much value it represents.  Also, there is no return policy if you blow it up and some possible safety issues some people are unwilling to risk (playing with electricity can be dangerous if you don't know what you are doing).   

After hearing the Ncore, I can understand some of the enthusiasm.  Are other amp manufacturers going to raise the white flag (unofficial flag of France)?  Not likely, but this technology represents another option for audiophiles to agonize over, and to debate.  Either way, it's worth trying because you might like it.  Of course, the same is true of many other designs.  Despite what some people would have you believe, only you know what sounds best to you.  There is no wrong answer.

 
 
Cheers Mate!  Good post.   
 
 
I know the little 32 watt TBI sounds damn good for a Class D, and has opened my ears to the likelihood that the Ncore could also be that good also.  I also know that the people who have heard it and did not like it have similar tastes to mine, and their opinions are one I respect (and some are active in the industry).  That does not mean everyone will agree all the time, and that is fine as well.
 
So, I think each one of us needs to make up our own minds, and not worry what anyone else thinks. 
 
I do wonder how the Ncores would sound with a battery power supply? 

[sts9fan]

Reviewers are ALWAYS bias. It's a fact of life. The worst part of pro reviews is when they talk of value. They don't pay retail!! When they say "golly this $9k phono cart is worth every dollar. What they mean is 'This cart I payed $3k' is worth every dollar'.
Then notice all the ads from said cart company throughout mag.

[medium jim]

you say i'm stirring the pot because i responded to what i consider to be a completely ridiculous, absurd, off the wall opinion?  that paid rewiewers will be more impartial than hobbyists?  that's an interesting take on it...

doug s.

Doug S

Yes, in a word....that is why I offered up a name of a hobbyist (a member of the AC) who also happens to be a professional reviewer, Steven Stone.  Hell, he did the review of my reissue Marantz 9's and he was totally objective and even found some faults with them.   In my opinion, he would be bound by only what he truly thought of them.

ymmv

Jim

[saisunil]

Not all the reviewers and not always. 

I did a short gig as an unpaid reviewer - it was a hobby - it still is.

First off - it improved my system 
Second - it forced me to listen more critically  as a result I enjoyed less music 
Third - it took enormous amount of time and energy and resources to do a simple review which took less than 10 minutes to read.
Forth - I am less critical of reviewers now than I was before

Believe me it was so hard to write a bad review - it hurts people and their businesses. Besides there are so many variables and factors that can and do influence final sound.

Above all is the genre preference - people may have opposite reaction to a type of music - say Rap or Classical ...

And I have sat on a review too long - cause life happens   

Cheers

[medium jim]

So let me get this right, professional reviewers only say good things and never pan?  All are bought and paid for and will pander to the highest bidder? Only hobbyist can render a proper review, especially on a forum and behind a made up moniker?  Have I missed something?

Jim

[sts9fan]

Oh, hobbiests are even more bias!! They spent thier hard earned money!  Do you think they ever want to admit they were duped by the hype? Then there are DIYers like myself. Everything I build is the best ever. I really only make evaluations of gear after months of listening. I also have ZERO trust in anyone who claims to have any real auditory memory.
"I have listened to 14 amps in my system and this has the best transparency"
My ass...

[doug s.]

So let me get this right, professional reviewers only say good things and never pan?  All are bought and paid for and will pander to the highest bidder? Only hobbyist can render a proper review, especially on a forum and behind a made up moniker?  Have I missed something?

Jim

the only thing you missed - imo of course - is that professional rewiewers are needed for unbiased rewiews. 

because there is one rewiewer that you believe will give an unbiased opinion, doesn't mean your statement that typical rewiewers are less biased than typical hobyists isn't patently absurd.  in fact, i would posit the opposite to be true, - if you want to generalize, i would say there is less bias in the hobbyist rewiews than there is in the professional rewiews.

doug s.

[jackman]

Oh, hobbiests are even more bias!! They spent thier hard earned money!  Do you think they ever want to admit they were duped by the hype? Then there are DIYers like myself. Everything I build is the best ever. I really only make evaluations of gear after months of listening. I also have ZERO trust in anyone who claims to have any real auditory memory.
"I have listened to 14 amps in my system and this has the best transparency"
My ass...

I'm not sure this applies to everyone but I think bias is not limited to pro reviewers.  I trust some of them versus anon internet "reviews" but we all have bias...weather we admit it or not.  Except me, of course.  


I wrote this earlier in the thread but will repeat it (not verbatum!), when some people hear a piece of gear or sound better than a non-preferred brand, they say things like, "these speakers stomped brand X", but when the new speakers or gear sounds better than their fan-boy brand, they talk about synergy, or they say something mild, or say something like "it was very close", etc.  In the NCore thread, when people said they liked another brand over the NCore, the Fanboys (some of them) would question the system or other components, or question the reviewer.  They only questioned people who expressed views that were different than theirs.  If the person liked the NCORe, they really didn't care about the system. 

[genjamon]

  In the NCore thread, when people said they liked another brand over the NCore, the Fanboys (some of them) would question the system or other components, or question the reviewer.  They only questioned people who expressed views that were different than theirs.  If the person liked the NCORe, they really didn't care about the system.

Should I copy my previous post over in the other thread and see what happens?  See if their responses are different than the ones here?

[Freo-1]

Should I copy my previous post over in the other thread and see what happens?  See if their responses are different than the ones here?

Yes.  I would try the Solid State area, and stress the listening issues you are hearing.  Enclosures would also be good.

[jackman]

Should I copy my previous post over in the other thread and see what happens?  See if their responses are different than the ones here?

Two things.  Those guys read this thread and I don't think you will get the same types of questions.  Also, I think some of the people who would be likely to antagonize you may be in penalty box so the entertainment value of your post and the responses might be dimished.  There are lots of good guys in the other thread and I'm sure you might get some good feedback and suggestions.  If your goal is improving your sound and finding out what is really happening in your system. 
I'm not familiar with the Tekton speakers and have only seen pictures.  It's hard to believe a two way, minimalist design is capable of deep bass and reasonable SPL's.  My system is the complete opposite (active woofers, relatively complex crossovers on monitor section, etc.).   I've never heard a 2 way with really good, deep bass, but I'm open minded.

Cheers,

J

[medium jim]

First off, I'm not trying to negate what those who have reviewed them have said, nor to diminish the generosity of Jason.  It is just the fact that outside of the DIY and AC forum, the Ncores are not known. That is the ground swell or fish bowl syndrome I speak of.

The more money one spends, the less objective they tend to be about their expenditures, call it human nature.  Hobbyists are the worst as the need to justify and defend their systems.  I suppose this cuts both ways here.

Are all paid or amateur reviewers unbiased?  No, we all bring baggage.  Yet, I would still like to hear/read what someone who has no dog in this, has to say.  Is the fear that they would only find good things to say, or honestly flesh out some shortcomings?

Jim

[DaveC113]

Ok, so what of the rest of my system, then.  Is there a way of tweaking my system to be able to use all the great benefits of control, detail, lack of noise, soundstage/imaging, etc while also bringing back that "you are there" magic?

I have heard a few class D amps and was never satisfied with my system. Couldn't get it quite right... D amps seem very responsive to changes in cabling, power supply and tweaks, so I went there for a bit, it all helped but never got it right. I even got a nice tube preamp with a 6922 mu follower circuit. The speakers never disappeared and it sounded like a mid fi system.

That all changed after I built an EL34 SET amp. It has 5-6 wpc and is enough to push my 93 dB Omega 5 XRS to their limit. SET amps may not be efficient, but a low powered SET isn't going to waste that much power. Now, it is impossible to locate the speakers on a good recording and I have that 3D soundstage I knew was possible but was MIA with the class D amps.

I'm sure the amps you are discussing here are much better than any D amp I've tried, but I have been happy with my system ever since I built that SET amp, and for me, that is what really matters.

[jackman]

Medium Jim,

I don't necessarily disagree with everything you are saying but I find it curious that you can muster the energy to post so much stuff about something you have never heard.   I'm not chugging the Kool-Aid but at least I went out and heard the amp in a good system, and compared it to an amp I was familiar with.  Not scientific, but not total speculation. 

Also, read my post about why I think this amp is not more popular.  Some people will NEVER own a DIY design (lots of reasons) and I'm not even sure the commercial designs are on the market yet.  Also, they are VERY expensive and I'm not sure many people could afford them regardless of their performance.  In other words, they are not the perfect amp for everyone, but that's not an indictment on their quality or performance.  The DIY and Mega-buck (Mola Mola) universe of potential customers is probably quite small.  Also, $2K for an amp you have to build might be out of some folks' price range. 

Just sayin...

[medium jim]

Jackman:

I would have loved to have been on the list to hear them, or hear them from someone near me. Neither was in the cards.  I agree that most shy away from DIY, even the Ncores that pretty much come assembled sans the chassis and connections.

It will be interesting on how the commercial versions are received in the marketplace.  I would think the mere fact that I'm posting would indicate that I do have a healthy curiosity about them and will leave it at that.

Jim

[genjamon]

Jackman - I forgot to mention I have an active sub as well for deep bass - 40hz crossover setting on the plate amp, but driven from amp high level outputs, using a cable converter with some kind of resistors inline to RCA inputs of a DEQ2496 and then to the sub plate amp.  Lores are great down into the 40's where I have them positioned, and can go down to low 30's if closer to walls, but I have them away from walls for better soundstaging.  I also prefer a little more output than they produce down low when closer to rear wall.

Dave - the problem with the Ncores for me is certainly not the speaker disappearing act or lack of 3D soundstage.  That's what they bring in spades to my system.  What I get from Ncore is all that "hifi" resolution while diminishing the nuanced emotional energies and the raw energy of live performances - also relevant to non-live reproduction.  Example: with my Ampino, the first minute or so of Carrion on Fiona Apple's first album, I can hear very subtle variations in her vocal energy, and I can envision her next to the mic with her mouth slightly edging closer and further from the mic as she softly sings those lines.  It's like the sounds are just barely escaping from her mouth and they might ebb away at any moment.  It keeps me on the edge of my seat and I almost hold my breath to feel closer to hers.

With the Ncore, those same passages hold greater spatial resolution of the overall performance, but her voice doesn't have those same liminal, fleeting qualities.  Her voice is there for all to hear.

Similarly, at the same time on that same track is an electric guitar lightly picking some chords in a way that plays of that liminal quality of her voice.  It's there clearer with the Ncore, and set more clearly in the soundstage, but it doesn't "pop" with live electric guitar energy the way the Ampino portrays.

[genjamon]

Also, thanks guys for listening as I have tried to communicate my thoughts.  In keeping with Dave's comment that class D often responds significantly to cabling and power supply tweeks, I'll PM Occam to learn more about his experiments along these lines with Ncore.

[jtwrace]

Just a quick note as I'm mobile and not really allowed to post in this thread.   

Long story short, when I decided to go the NCore route I didn't own them.  Someone was kind enough to loan them to me so I could decide. 

After that I purchased and sent them to an AC member and started to get PM's and emails.  At that point I figured I'd lay my nuts on the line and cough up the money to purchase another pair while my amps were sent around the country so people could listen to them and decide if they wanted to move forward (like many have) or just be happy with what they have (which many have). 

To me, I could really care less if you buy them or not as long as you're happy.  Either way to listen to $2k amps and it cost you ~$30 is a pretty sweet deal IMO.   

I guess I'm surprised by some peoples comments and getting so worked up over all of this.  You likey, you buy.  You no likey, you no buy. 

They and nothing else in this hobby is for everyone.  Thank goodness!

[Jon L]

I have been happy with my system ever since I built that SET amp, and for me, that is what really matters.

Having written the last Tour Review of NCores (here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105310.msg1119295#msg1119295), I would heartily agree that a low-power SET with appropriate speakers has that special magic (or another man's "distortion") Ncores do not achieve by themselves. 

On the other hand, a truly great high-sensitivity speaker is a very elusive thing, with different set of compromises.  I see the NCores as excellent amplification choices for those with conventional speakers that simply require more power.  When shopping for truly outstanding 200-300 watt amplifiers, one quickly realizes there aren't all that many, and they tend to be quite spendy. 

NCores driven by a really nice tube preamp can be a stirring success IME, perfectly capable of achieving musical satisfaction.  Is it end-all, be-all?  Of course not, but if I didn't (luckily) have my current high-sensitivity setup, I would be seriously looking at the NCores myself. 

[genjamon]

Thanks very much for the reminder, Jon. I do remember reading that review of yours and being intrigued. I've heard good things about that grounded grid pre, and your mods sound interesting. I'm not sure if I'm up to the task of that level of mods given it was almost all I could do to assemble the ncores. However, it's heartening to hear a good tube pre can bring the engagement and magic. I might have to try that next.  Someone else here mentioned a little dot preamp being a good match. That might be a good first try, stopgap while considering more serious tube preamp options.