[werd]

Cables in general are not the biggest rip off. There maybe a particular overpriced cables that is. That doesn't mean every cable is.

[andy_c]

Agree.  Some are quite reasonable.

[medium jim]

Jim, catfish sound like carp as well. Very splashy in the mids. Not tight like trout.

But you still get nice tight bass

Jim

[doug s.]

So if you haven't heard any $20k cables and you don't know anyone who has, how can you be so sure that A: these cables provide no performance benefit whatsoever? and B: these people just spend "insane" amounts of cash "just because they can?"

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big proponent of super expensive cables, but I have heard some of this stuff and some of it does in fact work.  Whether it makes sense for you or me is another question entirely.

how can i be sure?  c'mon tonepub, you aren't asking this question seriously, are you?  i can be sure, because i have a brain; that happens to be properly functioning!   

i am sure $20k cables "work".  i am also sure that they don't work any "better" than cables costing 5% as much.  and i am sure i don't need to try them to prove it.  anyone that actually believes they really got an audible improvement w/$20k cables, is seriously confused, methinks, and more interested in listening to equipment, than to music.  hell, most "normal" folks would accuse all of us, who participate here on a/c, of being gear obsessed.  "what, you spent $500 on a pair of speaker cables?  i could get a complete sound system for that!"   

when i read comments from andy_c regarding his concerns about folks getting ripped off, and diamond dog's comments that it doesn't matter if folks wanna spend ridiculous sums on gear; i lean more towards d/d's position that folks are free to waste their money any way they see fit.  and if they got ripped off cuz they didn't do their homework, oh well.  life is a jungle out there.

i can think of many far more serious issues in the world to get worked up about, re: folks getting ripped off/not doing their homework, etc., but politics are not allowed on this forum.     regarding the audio hobby, i am w/rclark, for the most part - when i read about $20k cables, i simply laugh.   

ymmv,

doug s.

[Russell Dawkins]

So what the hell was my point again...oh yeah, douchey...let's not be douchey to one another. Seems simple enough.

D.D.

You said it! 

[TONEPUB]

I am asking this question seriously.

And again for the record, I also think $20k cables are kind of silly.  However having had the chance to actually hear some of them in the context of a substantial system, some of the ones I have heard have sounded not only different, but have revealed more music than the $500 cables.  If you have a $500k system, 10 or 20k for a pair of speaker cables that reveal 10 or even 5% more music is a worthwhile investment to that person.

What so many fail to grasp is that it's all relative.  Hooking up a $10k pair of speaker cables between a DIY tube amp and a pair of $1500 speakers is not going to make a meaningful difference, because the system doesn't have enough resolution to reveal anything.

I'm not worked up at all, I just always find it amusing that people that have no experience with something feel so compelled to comment on how things they don't have or can't afford (or just choose not to spend the money on, which is equally valid) can't possibly work.

As I've said in the pages of our magazine countless times, if you haven't addressed all the other parameters of your system first, wire is the last place you should be spending money.  There's so much you can do to your room for a few thousand bucks (or even less) that will give you 20 times the improvement a piece of wire will, it's not funny.   

This is also why we haven't taken advertising money from the super high end cable companies, nor have we reviewed much megabuck cable. 

But in the context of a really high performance system, I see it more like development of Formula 1 car.  Ferrari spends millions of dollars each year to make last years 980hp car 990hp this year.  While getting an ECU reprogram on your Audi A4 will get you 40 or 50hp for $600.

It is also highly amusing to always blatantly dismiss the person who's crafted a system like this as someone who "obviously doesn't care about music" just because they've chosen to pursue something to a level of excellence that you can't. Granted, I've met my share of gear collectors, but again, as someone who has spent a lot of time with a number of people who own systems like this, most of them really are much more passionate about music than you might think.

If you have a system out on the fringe, and are at the point of diminishing returns, modest gains cost huge sums.  And that's who those products are made for.
 
However, to just blatantly declare they don't work, especially with zero experience with said products is incorrect.  You can't be sure of ANYTHING you haven't experienced.  That will always be my position.

[doug s.]

However, to just blatantly declare they don't work, especially with zero experience with said products is incorrect.  You can't be sure of ANYTHING you haven't experienced.  That will always be my position.

sorry, tone, but simple physics clearly indicates that you will be able to find  a $1k pair of speaker cables that will equal any $20k pair of speaker cables in any system regardless of price.  (i said 5%, not 2.5%, but truth be known, i bet you could find cables even at $500 that would equal the $20k spread.)

i CAN be sure of this, even if i have never experienced it.  yust as i do not need to jump out of a 10 story building window to know i will get hurt if i do.  some things are simply known, due to the laws of physics; no need to experience it.  $1k is more than enough money to allow manufacture of the most exotic materials capable of delivering the best signal transfer between amp and speaker.  that will always be my position.

doug s.

[DaveC113]

Better for everyone if rich folks spend their money, so I approve of high priced luxury goods in general even though I can't afford them. Beats having that cash sitting there doing nothing. Also, the super high end seems pretty much recession proof so not a bad business to get into. I'm going to have to figure out how to make $50k cables 

[totoro]

The point about information asymmetry is well taken. When purveyors of goods routinely invoke alternative physics and/or elaborate "technical" explanations for their equipment that are irrelevant (think skin-effect in interconnects for audio level wavelengths), it's hard not to be suspicious of them, especially in a case where expectation bias is such an obvious default hypothesis.

The reason people harp on about dbts is simply that. If expectation bias is the most obvious answer to an observed phenomenon, and the manufacturer of a product has not addressed it at all, and resorts to one or more of:

1. testimonials or reviews in which this kind of bias is in no way controlled for
2. exotic technical explanation in terms of quantum mechanics,  skin effects or what have you

it's pretty hard to take them seriously.

The ways this affects those of us who are interested in high fidelity sound but not interested in buying the super expensive Veblen goods sorts of products is fairly straightforward. It distorts the market, since  well made and engineered products _that have been tested with some kind of rigor_ are exensive to make, and may not necessarily be sold at as high a price as products made with magic flooby dust sold to the credulous with (lots of) money. Since the margins on the flooby products are high, they're attractive to both producers and retailers, and will tend to crowd out well made more highly engineered products that have a less mystical story. This will tend to eviscerate the middle of the market (which is something we've seen for years now, and has only fairly recently started to reverse with the advent of internet direct manufacturers).  And note that there isn't even any guarantee that the more expensive stuff even works better in any objective sense. Remember, it wasn't all that long ago that Stereophile thought a 15k pair of speakers was extremely expensive, now they think it's mid-range, and we've been going through a period of low inflation. Does anyone really believe that the cost of making these products has gone up that much, or that the companies involved have really been spending enough on actual research for this to make any sense? If you do, I have a bridge to sell you.

It's kind of telling that the "better" equipment manufacturers renamed their industry segment from "high fidelity" to "high end". Why bother selling engineering products when you can sell Veblen goods to rich credulous people? Since they're Veblen goods anyway, their high price is their own justification, and clear evidence that they're "better". And if little to no testing with even any attempt at objectivity is being done, who is to say otherwise? At least Harman does some testing, even if I don't like Revel speakers all that much, I can have some respect for the amount of engineering that went into them. Most high end manufacturers? Not so much. It's really expensive to do.

I can understand that we don't have the ability to measure everything, that science doesn't explain everything, etc, etc. But to just ignore it, and the fairly obvious expectation bias possibility in all of this, just seems to me to be some combination of intellectually dishonest or plainly foolish.

If someone wants to buy a Veblen good for its prestige, fine, people do that with watches all the time. But when they start claiming, on the basis of pretty much no objective evidence at all, that these Veblen goods are objectively the best, they just look anti-intellectual and engaged in protecting their  own self image more than being engaged in a reasoned debate about the usefulness and efficacy of a technological product (which, like it or not, is what these things are.

[TONEPUB]

Oh yes, the "Veblen goods" argument again.

No one buys stereo equipment for prestige.  They buy cars, boats, homes, watches and jewelry. 

I've been to most of the factories that make the worlds finest hifi gear over the last 8 years and haven't seen any "Magic Flobby Dust" anywhere. Sorry to disappoint you all.

What I have seen is a lot of engineers that usually happen to be pretty passionate about music and are trying to make the best products they can.  I'm in about 90% of the agreement on the cable argument presented here, but this always seems to devolve into the guys that can't afford the more expensive things getting defensive and taking a dismissive stance.

I've said it before I'll say it again - I'll probably never be able to afford an Aston Martin DBS, but it doesn't make it any less awesome of a car because I can't have it. Unfortunately, there is way too much snake oil in this industry and the products that do have engineering, development and refinement cost exactly what the fred in the shed products that claim exclusivity cost.

When most people's exposure to said gear is usually at a hifi show with marginal sound at best in a mediocre room, I'm not surprised that this is often the conclusion drawn.

And because there is no barrier to the world of audio, anyone can download a schematic and cobble together a tube amplifier that sounds pretty good or bolt a couple of drivers in a box that sound ok.  You can't do that with a car, a camera or a fine timepiece.  Hence, everyone is an expert and many are dismissive of those that make high quality goods.  You might be able to build your own 30 watt per channel EL-34 amplifier from $400 worth of parts, but you won't be able to build a Burmester 911 amplifier or a pair of Sonus Faber speakers in your garage.

What makes this hobby so much fun to me, is that you can participate anywhere that you'd like and enjoy music.  It's really unfortunate that people get their undies in a bundle over this kind of thing.  If you don't want a $30k power amplifier, don't buy one.  I certainly don't think any more or less of you. But there are a number of products in the "high end" that have legitimate craftsmanship and engineering behind them.

[srb]

I've said it before I'll say it again - I'll probably never be able to afford an Aston Martin DBS, but it doesn't make it any less awesome of a car because I can't have it.

True, but chances are you wouldn't buy a set of $20K+ aftermarket spark plug wires for it.

Steve

[Devil Doc]

Tonepub, the problem with you and the other folks in your industry is you think you're immune to sight and expectational biases. You are not. You simply ain't that special.

Doc.

[Letitroll98]

I am asking this question seriously.

And again for the record, I also think $20k cables are kind of silly.  However having had the chance to actually hear some of them in the context of a substantial system, some of the ones I have heard have sounded not only different, but have revealed more music than the $500 cables.  If you have a $500k system, 10 or 20k for a pair of speaker cables that reveal 10 or even 5% more music is a worthwhile investment to that person.

I agree with the concept that in the context of uber-expensive, highly revealing systems, commensurate cables can reveal X% more musical info.  The care and research put into constructing such cables could make them somewhat expensive.  But what in God's green earth, pray tell, could go into a cable to make it worth $20k?  There is no parts list, labor cost, wholesale+retail markup, and fixed cost (short of having them made at Cern or an old English castle) that could come anywhere near that price point.  Even pure silver at 8ga. with 10' runs comes only to a few hundred dollars.   

Nordost ODIN Supreme Reference at $20k, copper with a layer of silver.  Pear ANJOU at $7,250, copper with cotton/teflon dielectric.  Siltech Emperor Crown at $40,000 does use fancy silver ribbons, but $40K?  I can get all this stuff wholesale for way cheaper, I've sourced it.  Might these products sound wonderful, of course they can.  But I'm sorry, the pricing makes them an inherent rip-off.     

[mix4fix]

True, but chances are you wouldn't buy a set of $20K+ aftermarket spark plug wires for it.

Steve

Bugatti Veyron tires are £20K.

[srb]

Interestingly, most of the Nordost speaker cables that are terminated with banana plugs use the same Nordost gold-plated beryllium copper Z-plug, regardless of cost.

I believe they are pretty much the same (gold-plated beryllium copper) as the Swiss-made Multi-Contact LS-4 that go for about $20 for 8 (I own both the Nordost and Multi-Contact plugs).

The $29K Nordost Odin cables do have a rhodium plating layer over the gold!

Steve

[totoro]

Oh yes, the "Veblen goods" argument again.

No one buys stereo equipment for prestige.  They buy cars, boats, homes, watches and jewelry. 

I'm sorry, but that statement is patently false, people buy all of those things for prestige. Maybe you don't. But certainly I know people who have, as part of the construction of their statement place after selling their companies.

I've been to most of the factories that make the worlds finest hifi gear over the last 8 years and haven't seen any "Magic Flobby Dust" anywhere. Sorry to disappoint you all.

MIT cables anyone? Bybee products? Either you're living in an alternate universe, or are being disingenuous.

What I have seen is a lot of engineers that usually happen to be pretty passionate about music and are trying to make the best products they can.  I'm in about 90% of the agreement on the cable argument presented here, but this always seems to devolve into the guys that can't afford the more expensive things getting defensive and taking a dismissive stance.

You're making claims about what I can and can't afford based on what, exactly?

Unfortunately, there is way too much snake oil in this industry and the products that do have engineering, development and refinement cost exactly what the fred in the shed products that claim exclusivity cost.

We can agree on that, at least. But some of these "fred in the shed" companies become pretty major players without actually ever gaining the ability to do proper testing of their stuff (as I've said, it's expensive: one of the reasons there are so many good mid-fi Canadian speaker companies is that they can rent testing space cheaply, as I'm pretty sure you're aware).

When most people's exposure to said gear is usually at a hifi show with marginal sound at best in a mediocre room, I'm not surprised that this is often the conclusion drawn.

Nice little ad hominem. This is one of the most tiresome refrains brought up by the offended audiophile again and again. How do you know what I've listened to? What makes you think I or anyone else on this thread has never listened to top-flight monitors in a recording studio or a super pricey system at a colleague's abode or at a place like the main listening room at Goodwin's High End. You're making an unjustified assumption that happens to be false (kind of like the thing about prestige: this seems to be a little bit of a pattern with you in this discussion, simply asserting a falsehood as if it were truth and expecting not to get called on it).

And because there is no barrier to the world of audio, anyone can download a schematic and cobble together a tube amplifier that sounds pretty good or bolt a couple of drivers in a box that sound ok.  You can't do that with a car, a camera or a fine timepiece.  Hence, everyone is an expert and many are dismissive of those that make high quality goods.  You might be able to build your own 30 watt per channel EL-34 amplifier from $400 worth of parts, but you won't be able to build a Burmester 911 amplifier or a pair of Sonus Faber speakers in your garage.

Two points here. Many of the "high end" companies do exactly what you say: bolt a couple drivers in a box, or build a tube amp from a schematic that's 40 years old and wax rhapsodic about it.

And as far as the Sonus Faber goes, that may be true, but Earl Geddes actually can and does build awfully good speakers in his garage, and, while they're not cheap, they're not priced as Veblen Goods. And I can get a pair top-flight of K+H or Geithain monitors with _actual real engineering_ behind them for far less than something that has more mystical crap about the "shape of the lute" involved in it than real engineering.

What makes this hobby so much fun to me, is that you can participate anywhere that you'd like and enjoy music.  It's really unfortunate that people get their undies in a bundle over this kind of thing.  If you don't want a $30k power amplifier, don't buy one.  I certainly don't think any more or less of you. But there are a number of products in the "high end" that have legitimate craftsmanship and engineering behind them.

Actually, from where I stand, you are the one with his panties in a twist. My post was pretty dispassionate. And I and others have pointed out how the disinformation disseminated buy the "high end" part of the industry and its media shills has affected the whole market for quality audio products. Yours was rife with wild assertions and ad hominems. Perhaps this is cognitive dissonance at work, since you suspect the emperor may really have no clothes.

[Diamond Dog]

Oh yes, the "Veblen goods" argument again.

No one buys stereo equipment for prestige.

Amen. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to step out of the hot-house and mingle with normal people. Want to get some elbow-room in a crowded social gathering ? Start talking about your "system"...
Hell, I've got skin in this game and all this piety about audio makes me sleepy...Said it before and I'll say it again: I'm a bad audiophile.

Think I'll put some music on...

D.D.

[totoro]

Wag your finger if you like, but if the post is taken in context, je ne regrette rien...

Amen. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to step out of the hot-house and mingle with normal people. Want to get some elbow-room in a crowded social gathering ? Start talking about your "system"...
Hell, I've got skin in this game and all this piety about audio makes me sleepy...Said it before and I'll say it again: I'm a bad audiophile.

Think I'll put some music on...

D.D.

But most people react the same way to someone going on about his expensive watch, as well (and it's almost always a he). Are you going to claim expensive watches aren't Veblen goods?

[Diamond Dog]

But most people react the same way to someone going on about his expensive watch, as well (and it's almost always a he). Are you going to claim expensive watches aren't Veblen goods?

Those who for whatever reason have been wasting their time reading any of my 1400-odd ( and I do mean odd ) posts probably realize by now that I am pretty much incorrigible. Maybe you'll have better luck with TONEPUB. Have fun!

D.D.

[Andre2]

my contribution to this: last night before going to bed, I was coveting some patek philippe watches, starting at $50K.  Is a watch worth that much?  Absolutely not.  But I was coveting anyway.