[werd]

Since you clearly don't understand what constitutes a valid argument, and also have publicly claimed that expectation bias can be overcome through meditation (or whatever mystical training procedure you advocate), I'd say your standing in this argument is precisely nil.

A valid argument ? You clearly have no idea where you are. This is an audio board. If you think your thin argument is going to hold any water with people who are here for the hobby you can forget it. You need to wake up and smell the audio.

[Diamond Dog]

You need to wake up and smell the audio.

 NOTE:  If you can actually smell the audio, please dial 911 IMMEDIATELY!

D.D.

[werd]

NOTE:  If you can actually smell the audio, please dial 911 IMMEDIATELY!

D.D.

Haha

[doug s.]

Doug s ,

We don't always agree on everything ( hey, we don't have too  ) , but I always enjoy your posts and pictures regarding tuna. Keep 'em coming brutha. Awesome!

hey, quiet earth - wanna buy a killer sansui tu-x1, refurb'd and modded by joe chow, one of the great rf engineers?  it's a killer performer, cosmetically 8.5-10, consistently ranked as one of the best, if not the best tuna ever made.  seriously, it is.  i would really like to get $3.5k for it, but for you, i will let it go for $3k.   

doug s.

[totoro]

A valid argument ? You clearly have no idea where you are. This is an audio board. If you think your thin argument is going to hold any water with people who are here for the hobby you can forget it. You need to wake up and smell the audio.

So the rules of logic and evidence are different on audio boards than anywhere else? Do you realize that you more or less just proved my point?

Sigh.

[andy_c]

Dadaism rules on the audio boards.

[Quiet Earth]

hey, quiet earth - wanna buy a killer sansui tu-x1, refurb'd and modded by joe chow, one of the great rf engineers?  it's a killer performer, cosmetically 8.5-10, consistently ranked as one of the best, if not the best tuna ever made.  seriously, it is.  i would really like to get $3.5k for it, but for you, i will let it go for $3k.   

doug s.

Don't tease me man!!! . . . .  I would love to own that tuna but ain't nothin to listen to in my cowtown.    Every once in a while I bust out the old TU-217 for a week or two just to check back in to the FM world. I miss the old days of DJs gone wild.

Do you realize that you more or less just proved my point?

Sigh.

You are the winner then.       

[Diamond Dog]

Dadaism rules on the audio boards.

As opposed to the Brutalism which I suspect would make you feel more at home ?  I've always been partial to Surrealism myself...I'm sure that will come as no surprise.

D.D.

[TONEPUB]

Don't all of you guys with the curmudgey, veblen goods, audio's a big rip off mentality get sick and tired of being a buzz kill?

You guys suck the fun out of the room.  Gotta go, more music to listen to...

[doug s.]

Don't all of you guys with the curmudgey, veblen goods, audio's a big rip off mentality get sick and tired of being a buzz kill?

You guys suck the fun out of the room.  Gotta go, more music to listen to...

i love audio, and i love expensive equipment - when it has a useful purpose.  $20k cables ain't it!  this thread is titled biggest rip-off in hi end audio, remember?   

doug s.

[Rclark]

Tonepub, the problem with you and the other folks in your industry is you think you're immune to sight and expectational biases. You are not. You simply ain't that special.

Doc.

And we'd all love an Aston Martin too. He's twisting the point into something else.

Nobody thinks uber pricey cables are dumb because they can't afford them. And I'd love to know how 20k is going to yield another 10% performance just because the system is expensive. since we're continuing to use the Nordost as an example. Lots of defense, no real reasons.

[Rclark]

And on the topic of companies taking advantage, or gouging, it is very interesting that the MBL's we talked about earlier were once below 15k, and are now as much as a Dodge Viper... Can't be that much better huh?

[sts9fan]

I vote for Ncore, Audio Circle and review magazines.
Payed reviewers have no ability to judge value. Sure they say that A $10k cart is worth it but they only payed $4k and took it as a tax write off or their company payed for it.

[andy_c]

Payed reviews have no ability to judge value.

Are you saying the companies actually pay the reviewers of the online pubs to review their products?  I thought they got their revenue only from advertising.

If so, which online pubs are involved in that?

[werd]

As opposed to the Brutalism which I suspect would make you feel more at home ?  I've always been partial to Surrealism myself...I'm sure that will come as no surprise.

D.D.

I am more into pratism over resolutionism myself. Only because Its hard to spend under 20k and get both. As far as Dadaism I already do the tambourine Tuesday nites  at the airport for cablism so I am not sure I got the time. But if I could find a set that lets me tambourine pratism and resolutism for under a 1k I might just tambourine for those cheapskatism guys.

[sts9fan]

Are you saying the companies actually pay the reviewers of the online pubs to review their products?  I thought they got their revenue only from advertising.

If so, which online pubs are involved in that?

Do you think that when a reviewer says "I bought the review sample" they pay retail?  Not saying they are payed off. Just that actual cost to the consumer does not apply to them.

[andy_c]

Do you think that when a reviewer says "I bought the review sample" they pay retail?  Not saying they are payed off. Just that actual cost to the consumer does not apply to them.

Oh, I knew they didn't pay retail for the components they buy.  But when you said "paid review", and appeared to contrast that with the "review magazines", I thought you meant that the companies literally pay the online pubs to review the piece.  Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[TONEPUB]

I vote for Ncore, Audio Circle and review magazines.
Payed reviewers have no ability to judge value. Sure they say that A $10k cart is worth it but they only payed $4k and took it as a tax write off or their company payed for it.

You can never say a $10k cartridge is "worth it" in an absolute sense.  However, what we did when we reviewed the Lyra Atlas (and I'm assuming that's what you're referring to as you made plenty of snarky comments on this subject before) was to compare it side by side under identical conditions to the $3k Kleos and the $6500 Titan i and comment on the differences between the three.  Whether that is "worth it" to you is not a question I, or any other reviewer can answer.

The only value that can ever be judged with any component is what kind of performance does is to compare it to other like priced components, or like we did, to other components of lesser value and describe the differences.

To me the Atlas is worth the money, but I've got a system that can support it.  As we mentioned in the review, the $3k Kleos offers a lot of the virtues and a lot of the technology that the Atlas has for a lot less money.   

Is the Atlas worth the money in an absolute sense?  Who knows.  However, if you want the experience the Atlas provides (or the Goldfinger, or the XV-1T) that's what it costs and it really isn't available for $3,000.  I wish it was.  Honestly, I wish the Atlas was $300, so everyone could have one and see what they are missing.

As for the hypothetical expensive "rip off" cables being worth the price tag in an expensive system, let's take this as a hypothetical situation:

You plug a pair of ODIN speaker cables into a PrimaLuna ProLogue integrated amplifier and a pair of Harbeth Compact sevens in place of the $400 AudioQuest, Furutech, Cardas or whatever other cable you are using.  The difference is modest if even noticeable - because the system, while good and musically satisfying can't resolve the difference.  Even if it could, in the context of an $7,000 system, (assuming a modest DAC like the Wadia 121) spending another $20k would probably give that user pause, regardless of income.

You plug a pair of ODIN (or any other mega speaker cable) into a pair of Wilson XLF's with ARC REF 750 mono blocks, 40th Anniv. REF preamp and an SME30/SMEV arm/Lyra Atlas cartridge and an ARC REF Phono2SE phono stage, and if the system is set up properly, I guarantee you will hear a difference between the ODIN cable and whatever other cable you are using.  This system has the resolution to hear the differences that a super tweako cable will make (notice I'm not saying improvement here, I'm saying difference).  In the context of a $400,000 system, you're looking at 5% of total cost to get an improvement, or at least a change in flavor.  Not as crazy of an expense at this point.  But then again, most consumers aren't walking into a Nordost dealer and paying retail for a pair of these either.

[rascal]

I will always say system dependent and more importantly ear dependent.  some of posts are pointless since this damn hobby is subjective to a large extent anyways.

I compared my exotic silver cables (branded and which I bought on audiogon reviews/raves) and thought they were great until I did a blind test with help of my friend with dh labs cables. I struggled and failed to make note of the difference in the cables.

Point is - value/impressions are subjective- there will never be absolute truth. Pick your cheapest poison and enjoy. Smirking down on anything goes nowhere.

[sts9fan]

The only value that can ever be judged with any component is what kind of performance does is to compare it to other like priced components, or like we did, to other components of lesser value and describe the differences.

So you would never make reference to a component being worth the asking price?

To me the Atlas is worth the money, but I've got a system that can support it.  As we mentioned in the review, the $3k Kleos offers a lot of the virtues and a lot of the technology that the Atlas has for a lot less money.   

How much money? Your money or Tone Audio's?  Big difference.