[Tyson]

nathan,
obvously, the country always will be a sewer unless 100% of the people are christians.  76% just ain't gonna cut it, the other 24% are obviously responsible for all the crap that is wrong here.  

Of course to a 'real' christian, it shouldn't matter that things are crappy, cause this is all just a prelude to heaven and eternal afterlife, so a real christian simply needs to bide his time and then he'll be rewarded for staying on the true path.

[infiniti driver]

actually, this statement is comical, since, just as nobody knows who or what is the true path to enlightenment for others, no one knows how many jesus freaks make up audiophile-dom. at least, it's theoretically possible to do a survey to count how many jesus freaks make up audiophile-dom!  

Happy you find it comical.

Jesus Freak

Hummm...So judgemental. The bible teaches that only one can judge...but unless you are exposed, you simply cannot understand. I was not judging...simply I was trolling you. For that I am not sinning.


Christians do have a sense of Humor too.

Unless you have a grasp of this thing, you will not understand..nor can any mortal make you understand. The grasp can be there if you ask repetedly to God for his devine forgiveness and understanding. Doors then open. You must continue to feed the soul for it to grow. Without the commitment, you will NEVER have a clue what it is about..and that in itself is Gods plan. Can't get there unless you point yourself in the direction. Even then...many are not going to understand unless their heart is right. IF the heart is a sceptic, it is all foolishness to the unbeliever.

Over and out..

[Marbles]

The problem(s) with Nathan and me are that we were both exposed to the Catholic Church.  That turned us both off to relegion in general.  Not that we weren't committed.  Not that we didn't want to beleive.  The Catholic Church is just so hypocriticle in so many ways that it took the belief out of me.

In many ways I owe the Catholic church for revealing the way man made religions are.

If there is a religion for me, it would probably be Budism.  Just treat everyone the way you would like to be treated.

Is there a Supreme Being (or more than one?)  I don't know, but I do know that for me the truth, whatever that may be will not come from man made religions.

Doug, I don't see Bob shouting any hate, only love.  How can that be bad?
I don't see Bob saying that his religion, and he has never said what his religion is AFAIR, was better than another.  Only that his belief is that there is one true god.

If you believe there are two true or more Gods, or none at all, why do you have to be so full of hate?

I can understand Nathan, because we have followed similar paths.  I can also understand your feelings of how relegions have screwed up the world worse than anything else I can think of, but it doesn't mean you have to rain on Bob's parade.  He is here with all the good things about religion, and none of the bad AFAIC.

Peace out.

[infiniti driver]

Catholosisim goes against everything I learned in my Holy Bible. It is a powerful organized religion and the Bible teaches me to have a personal relationship with Jesus and not bow down to idols or "Popes". It teaches that NO MAN (not even the Pope) is without Sin. The POPE is a sinner. Catholosisim and what I get from daily scripture and my prayers and my blessings are so far apart from the Catholic Church that I do not even care for either to be associated with each other.

Jesus does not condone the corruption of that organized religion. It is written.  Only by Jesus can one come of the glory of God. The Pope and the bishops, the fags and the hipocracy has nothing to do with it all.

Sorry...but the Papal ministry is an abomination in my heart.

[Marbles]

My Father was Lutheren.  So I went to Lutheren Church from time to time.

One of my Fathers best friends was a Lutheren Minester.  In fact he died last week and I went to his showing.  He was Crazy Judy's father if you ever read that thread in the "sports bar".  He also married my sister (to her husband) on the side of a Mountain in Wyoming.  

Turned out he became Atheist and continued to be a Minester because he had no other way of making a living.

Anyway, I went to many Lutheren masses as well as some Methodist ones.  They were all so similar to Catholicism that I could hardly tell them apart.

It's just not Catholicism, but most all man made religions that I object to.  I'm just most familiar with Catholicism.

That getting to know Jesus thing one on one is OK with me.  I'm glad you don't have a formal religion to get in the way.

By the way, Judy and I were at IU at the same time and my fondest memory of her father was when he and his wife came down to party with my parents on campus as they did from time to time.

He was originally from Chicago and there was a Chicago band..Duke Tomato and the All Star Frogs playing at the Bluebird Cafe in Bloomington IN.  The place was packed!  We got a table, but not enough chairs, so he went table to table buying them pitchers of beer for each chair they would give up!  We ended up with enough chairs!  He was VERY cool for a minister!   I was on a fake ID so you know my parents were cool too  

Crazy Judy thread here:  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=5837&highlight=crazy+judy

[infiniti driver]

Funny thing about all this talk...Bob will probablly agree with me. When people put all Christians in the same boat is when it becomes most misunderstood. I KNOW that certain churches and religions have not the teachings of Jesus as their priorities.

Jesus would like you to meet in a field and worship rather than a 9 million dollar chapel with a 600000 dollar sound system that includes a health spa and all the works and preachers being limo'ed.

Jesus is a personal relationship!!!  No Church in the World can replace that. The Church is a fellowship organization. I grow tired of the bullcrap myself. The Spirit manifests itself within. The Church is a place to meet others with a common relationship with God. Organized religion has brought the stereotype of hatred and non believers to the head where people no longer have any inkling of what God is really about. Some churches do good duty, others are complete abominations of the entire spirit and holy ghost. Not the demomination...it is the premise of what their adgenda is.

Bottom line, Jesus asks me to share his love with the fellow man for HIM to discover on his own. The "Church of GOD" manifests itself in those who do his will and duty. The Church establishment can be a horrible devergence of the above.


If you belive the Church is the way to knowing God, you are mistaken. It is for you to do yourself on a personal level and it is written. The Church fellowship is a place to meet and greet other believers. Too many of them are a "business" these days.

[Marbles]

AMEN!!!

[John Casler]

Jesus would like you to meet in a field and worship rather than a 9 million dollar chapel with a 600000 dollar sound system that includes a health spa and all the works and preachers being limo'ed.

Hi Infiniti,

Don't take this the wrong way, but how do you know this?

I mean I know many claim to talk with Jesus, but the only people I know who either talk to someone who is not there, or worse yet claim that the imaginary being talks to them are placed in a protective environment.

Additionally, I wouldn't mind meeting Big J in a field and having a good conversation, but soemthing tells me that isn't going to happen without a lot of imagination on my part.

If you belive the Church is the way to knowing God, you are mistaken. It is for you to do yourself on a personal level and it is written.

I might say that I agree with you "half way".  I think it is for you to do yourself and no spoken or written, or imagined sources should be consulted.

If you could wipe your slate clean and didn't have someone telling you that you have to beleive in such a "far fetched", tale to live forever in "heaven" or not beleive, and rot and burn in hell, you might have a different view.

I think if given the choice. I would eat from the tree of knowledge and good and evil, since in this world, if you don't have these, you are an animal.

[Sa-dono]

Hummm...So judgemental. The bible teaches that only one can judge...but unless you are exposed, you simply cannot understand.

Catholosisim goes against everything I learned in my Holy Bible. It is a powerful organized religion and the Bible teaches me to have a personal relationship with Jesus and not bow down to idols or "Popes". It teaches that NO MAN (not even the Pope) is without Sin. The POPE is a sinner. Catholosisim and what I get from daily scripture and my prayers and my blessings are so far apart from the Catholic Church that I do not even care for either to be associated with each other.

Jesus does not condone the corruption of that organized religion. It is written. Only by Jesus can one come of the glory of God. The Pope and the bishops, the fags and the hipocracy has nothing to do with it all.

Sorry...but the Papal ministry is an abomination in my heart.

That sure reads like judging.

[nathanm]

Isn't it great how the faithful can't even agree with themselves?  They all claim to believe in the same thing while devoting their time to arguing with each other and trying to show how bad and mixed up the other guy is!    "No you don't understand, I'M worshipping Jesus the correct way, YOU'VE got it all wrong!"  "Those other Christians, they're evil!  WE are the true Christians!"  Everyone KNOWS what Jesus wants don't they?  They all know his mind.  It is quite easy for me to dismiss the whole mess entirely.

The problem(s) with Nathan and me are that we were both exposed to the Catholic Church. That turned us both off to relegion in general. Not that we weren't committed. Not that we didn't want to beleive. The Catholic Church is just so hypocritical in so many ways that it took the belief out of me.

Well...sort of.  I went through the motions of Catholic schooling without much fuss really.  It's like my natural born atheism was always there but it was covered up with layers of Christian blankets and I just had a tough time shaking them off.   Now it's like a great weight lifted off me.  Living in fear is a terrible thing.  Once you realize the reality that there definitely does not appear to be any truth to the idea of God, it also makes the dread everyone feels of dying much less frightening.  In grade school they gave us these...I think they were called scapulas or something.  It was this piece of string with some picture on the end in a plastic sleeve.  They told us if we were wearing this thing when we died we'd go straight to Heaven.  Grown adults tell children these moronic fantasty stories, still, in today's age.  But that is how you can control people, through fear.

So for me I don't care if it's organized religion or disorganized religion or a Personal Relationship With Jesus Christ - it's all very silly to me.  It is a flawed system because it is based upon fear, lies, speculation and excessively abstract thinking which seems to serve no purpose.  It is based upon denying reality and living for a future which never comes.  If Christ was counted simply as being one the many human philosophers the whole thing would be much more sensible.  But as soon as you base this all on supernatural beings I can't take it seriously anymore.

Quote:
Jesus would like you to meet in a field and worship rather than a 9 million dollar chapel with a 600000 dollar sound system that includes a health spa and all the works and preachers being limo'ed.

Quote: John Casler

Hi Infiniti,

Don't take this the wrong way, but how do you know this?

Easy - they didn't have sound systems, spas or limos in Jesus' time!

[Smeggy]

Look, let's face facts. Jesus was around a couple of thousands of years ago. Accounts of his exploits were written a very long time after his death by people who neither knew him, his thoughts or intentions. Those writings have since been revised, translated, changed reinterpreted and changed again.

How in hell can *anyone* claim to know diddly about the man. Everything written had to be made up to some extent as none of the writers were there, no first hand accounts, nothing! It seems that taking the word of the Bible would have to be taken with a huge bucket of salt and a massive leap of imagination and 'faith' < this obviously being the biggest one as I can't imagine anyone actually believing the bible as any kind of accurate document of fact because I don't really believe facts play much of a part in the Bible.

I personally feel the Bible is a work of fiction based loosly on percieved facts as handed down by word of mouth.. and we all know how that generally deviates from the truth. Especially over such a long time period. If people choose to believe in the Bible, all well and good, but please don't try to tell me that any of you know what Jesus was like because that's a stretch I can't take seriously. I do believe Jesus was real and some of the accounts may even be semi-accurate, but I seriously doubt it. Stuff passed down from person to person is notoriously prone to liberal embelishments, twisting to suit purpose and generally full of massive inaccuracies. Memory is fickle and we tend to remember things we want to and how we want to.

Do you know Jesus? No way in hell dude! At best you're having an intimate relationship with an idealized semi-mythical impression of what you'd like Jesus to be. How can it possibly be anything else given the facts of the matter (of course my facts are also prone to mistakes)  

I don't doubt anyone's feelings on this, just the logic behind it.

[Marbles]

Not to play Devils advocate here (pun intended), but once someone has excepted Jesus Christ, how do you know he hasn't visited them?

I don't know that.  I haven't fully (or even partially) excepted him (her or it) to know what happens.

Those that have turned their lives over to him (her or it) say it's so.

[Tyson]

Marbles,
I did.  I can tell you what happened.  Nothing happened.  And that, as they say, is the God's honest truth.

[Smeggy]

Oddly, I do believe many people are convinced that they have visitations in one form or another. The mind is a trixy little grey blob, bustling with imagination and quite happy to give a lot of us endorphin induced hallucinations which seem totally real when the mind is in a receptive mood. I think this is a perfectely valid thing which, in belief, can give many of us what we're looking for. Whether real or imagined. Deep joy, the ferver of the moment and group experiences, especially when whipped up into near frenzy can be a powerful mental narcotic. Under these circumstances, anything's possible. I've seen it plenty of times and it is a remarkable thing to observe.

Is it real? For many, YES it is. Just like a lot of religeous experiences. Do I believe it? No. Do I believe they believe it? Yep, totally and unreservedly. This may or may not apply to any of the debaters here but it is a known phenomenon.

*EDIT*
PS. Just to clarify, I'm not trying to say all our God Fearin' brethren here are all impressionable mental cases   , just pointing out some of the strange things that can happen to folks  

[Sa-dono]

Not to play Devils advocate here (pun intended), but once someone has excepted Jesus Christ, how do you know he hasn't visited them?

I don't know that.  I haven't fully (or even partially) excepted him (her or it) to know what happens.

Those that have turned their lives over to him (her or it) say it's so.

Because they didn't "accept" him! Nathan and you should know what happens when you "excepted" him. Has Jesus knocked on your doors yet?

[Marbles]

Just a few Jehova's Witnesses.

Gad this forum needs a spell checker program  

[doug s.]

...Doug, I don't see Bob shouting any hate, only love. How can that be bad?
I don't see Bob saying that his religion, and he has never said what his religion is AFAIR, was better than another. Only that his belief is that there is one true god.

If you believe there are two true or more Gods, or none at all, why do you have to be so full of hate? ...

marbles, you miss my point.  bob has said that there's only one way to salvation, & that's thru jesus christ, and that it is every good christian's duty to spread the "good news".  (infinity driver also seems to concur.)  it is this one simple idea that i find truly offensive.

it's not that i am so full of hate.  but, by direct implication, bob's belief system automatically condemns all others:  if there is only one true path, then all others must be wrong.  this spiritual attitude is the major cause of most of the suffering that humans have inflicted upon other humans.  civilization after civilization, culture after culture has gone down this road & used it as an excuse to kill their enemies, & control populations & resources.

i agree religion (or athiesm or secular humanism or ???) is personal.  but it is absurd and downright dangerous to espouse the views of any one human prophet as the only right way.  i concur with most of what everyone else here on this thread has said about this topic...

best regards and peace,

doug s.

[Aether Audio]

Guys,

I just stopped in to see what's going on - WOW.  For a bunch of folks that don't believe in God (or Jesus - or spiritual matters - period)  you sure seem to want to talk about the subject a lot.

I could be wrong, but I think that maybe that's because deep down inside there's a part of each of us that wants to know God - if he is real to begin with.  Nathan, you keep trashing faith in God with an almost "religious" ferver.  Why waste your time on such fairytails if that, in fact, is what they are?  Don't you have more important things to do with your time?  That goes for the rest of you guys too.  

If the spirit realm is a bunch of balogna, why waste your time debating it?  I don't see anybody here trying to convince the people of the Flat Earth Society that they're wong about the earth.  So why are you tring to convince nuts like me, infinity driver, jfreeman and whoever that we're crazy?  And even if we are nuts, why would you care enough to go on and on like this?  There are plenty of other nusts out there that are far more threatening than we are.  

We're just simple people living our lives, building speakers and raising families.  I wouldn't harm a single soul unless they tried to physically harm myself or my family.  I'm not telling the faithful to pick up arms and slaughter the unbelievers or anything like that.  I just made a simple expression of faith in a man that walked this earth a couple thousand years ago as well as the belief in another realm beyond this universe.  Mankind has believed in the spirit world in one form or another since the first humans walked this earth.  So what's the big deal?

I think the people of the Flat Earth Society are nuts but you don't see me trying to convince any of them otherwise.  Why not?  'Cause they're nuts and I don't have time to waste trying to rationalize with them - they're hopeless. Well, according to you guys, we're more hopless than they are.  We believe in stuff that's invisible.  At least the earth is real; maybe there's a chance you could convince the FES folks that they're wrong because at least you all agree that the earth is real to begin with.  You'd have some common ground.  With God and spiritual stuff, you don't accept any of it - so whats the point?

You should all go debate speaker cables or something that you know at least physically exists.  Doing that, there's some small chance you might be able to make sense with someone of a different opinion.  Here on this thread, we're not even on the same page.

The only thing I can figure is that you must all be really, really bored and have way too much time on your hands.  Why else would the same pissing contest keep going... and going... and going.  Oh, maybe you're all like the little Eveready plastic people and you're batteries just never run down.

Well, mine have run down.  I'm bored.  The debate never goes beyond the fundamental premiss.  You still haven't been able to swallow the first new axiom that I required for the discussion - the existence of God.  Seeing that's the case, I don't have time to waste arguing with the devil...so to speak.  You can all keep right on going round and round about why believer's are nuts or this or that...fine.  But I'm out'a here.  There's way too much money to be made building product to waste what little time I have playing such games.  My time is precious but I'll be glad to share it for the sake of helping some one else and furthering God's kingdom.  Other than that,  you can all go pound sand.  That's what you're doing anyway, wheteher you know it or not.

Nathan, Doug, Smeggy et al, go ahead, have fun at our expense.  Keep on slamming us, our company, use mockery ad infinitum if you wish.  All I can say is that in my 30 years of being a born-again believer in Christ, don't think there's anything you can say that I haven't heard from day one.  Jesus Freak. Holy Roller - you name it, I've heard it all - so what?  I don't care what you or any man thinks.  I know what I know and I know whom I should be concerned about as far as His opinion is concerned...and it ain't nobody on this earth - PERIOD.

So...if you want me involved in this discussion you're gonna have to switch gears or this is the last I'm going to participate.  In fact, if the subject doesn't change I'm gonna start a new thread.  Maybe I'll call it the "SP Technology Hater's Club"  or the "Atheist's Circle" or something like that.  Then I'll move all your posts over there and you can have at it.  Why?  Because I didn't start this thread to waste my time debating the concept of God.

Now, if somebody wants to move the direction of the discussion to something concerning God's nature or whatever, well...then I'll come back.  If you're interested in knowing why God did this or that, why the world is the way it is, what God expects from us, why there's so much suffering in the world and how God can permit it, how to make contact with God or whatever...then I'd be glad to try and give the best answer I can give.  I don't pretend to know it all and I still struggle sometimes with those same issues, but I have learned a few things in 30 years.  Maybe I can help - maybe not, but I'll try...if you really want to know and aren't trying to bait me into a debate.  This thread was supposed to be for learning and growing - not to be a cyberspace pissing contest.

There's so much vanity in all of your opinions and comments, it makes me wonder if you don't like to secretly play "dress up."  C'mon now, do you guys like to put on pretty dresses and make-up, when no one's looking?   Now, if you all turn out to secretly be women, it would all make more sense.  Either that or teenagers.  I assumed most of you were grown men.  I can't really believe a bunch of mature men would have nothing better to do than waste their time debating a subject that's as old as the human race.  If you have that much free time on your hands to continue debating with others over a subject that you are convinced is foolishness, then you have way too much money.  That's assuming that you really don't believe in God, though.

But you know what?  I don't believe any of the above is the case at all.  John Casler, you commented that any faith in God should be innate - from within.  That you shouldn't have to be told to believe, but that you should sort of just "know" that there's a God.  Guess what? - You already do...all of you do.  That's why this thread just keeps on going and you all keep coming back.  You all secretly want to hear some one say something you haven't thought of before, you want some one to "convince" you that God is real and he cares for you.  You have a hunger in your hearts that all of your own opinion, as convincing as you make it, cannot satisfy.  Deep down, you all really want to know God and know that you're not really alone in this world.  

I could tell you all about how much God loves every one of you but your earliest experiences with religion have soured you.  You don't realize that you have been "set up."  You don't realize there's an enemy that's sought to destroy you from the womb.  He's attempted to devour you like a raging lion.  He's tried to rob you of your Divine heritage and replace it by nurturing the beast the lies within each of us. The enemy of man and God has desired to consume you with fire and kill any form of hope by turning you away from your Heavenly Father and the very source of eternal life.  I will pray that He sends His Holy Spirit to set you free from the enemy's deception and the bondage that Satan seeks entrap you with.  Stepping back, I can see that the enemy has been working for some time to destroy the innocence that you once possessed.

Nathan's pissed as hell at God, Doug's scrared to death of Him and Smeggy is just wore out and confussed.  And you're all tired of the hypocracy of established religion.  Don't you understand who's really behind all of this?  Do you actually think that any loving God condones the attrocities and hypocracies of the established world churches?  Trust me, judgment begins in the house of God.  A great and mighty day of judgment is coming and it will BEGIN with those that have professed to believe.  Every person professing faith that has been used by the devil to hurt some one, as many of you seem to have been, will stand in terrible jugment.  We that are believers are to be an examople to others and help to lead them closer to God.  You all sound like you're extremely pissed at the church for it's blatant hypocrisy.  But that's OK - Guess what? So is God.  I am too, that's why I don't belong to any denomination and I go to a non-denominational church from time to time.  And no, they don't have it all figured out either - nobody does.  But we HAVE been introduced to the ONE that does - and He teaches us and leads us one day at a time. AND HE HATES HYPOCRISY!!!

But you guys don't really want to hear about God's love.  You're too busy being angry.  You especially don't want to hear it from me so I'm going back to "yust building my speakers" per Doug's advice.  I wonder if that's how God feels at times and if that's why many do not hear from him.  A gentleman always knows when to bow out.
See ya.

-Bob

[Aether Audio]

PS. - Doug,

As long as the constitution of the United States still stands and continues to grant us with the right to free speech, I'm going to continue "offending" people like you so...get used to it.  I support the Nazi's, Greenpeace, PETA and the Democratic Party's right to that same freedom.  I don't support their message but I would fight for their right to "preach" it at the top of their lungs if they so desire.  I even support your right to suggest that I should be deprived of mine.  Fascism should have a voice as well I suppose.  Welcome to America.

[Rob Babcock]

One point I should make, Bob- there's no logical basis for the assertion that passionately arguing the issue means deep down inside they want to believe.  Couldn't the opposite be true?  Could you not be arguing so strenuously to try to convince yourself?  I don't believe this is the case, just pointing out that your arguement doesn't make much sense.  They argue because they believe passionately that religion is a lie that harms society

If someone argues passionately that all cables sound the same, some might criticize his hearing, but never his belief.  You need a better arguement.


But I have no doubt you have better arguments!  You're among the most well spoken and elequent boosters of religion I've ever heard, and I'm following this thread with fascination.  I gotta admire the 3 or 4 of you that are willing to take the abuse of literally the entire AC community!     You got stones, brother.

And aside from occasionaly interjections like this one, I know enough to leave this hot potato alone!