AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Circles => Hypex Owners Circle => Topic started by: jackman on 22 Jul 2012, 04:37 pm
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Great thread! Please help me understand the overwhelming theme of this thread: if someone loves the Ncore, it's because they are the best amps ever invented and the person has a fine appreciation for undistorted, accurate perfection. If they prefer another amp or if they like the sound of another amp over the Ncore, it's because they prefer colored, distorted sound. Did I get that right?
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Well, that's certainly been expressed by some. Sme have been finding a sonic signature, but others have wondered if they aren't hearing the sonic signature of their other components in new ways given the low distortion of Ncore. Then there are those on the Ncore improvements thread talking about effects of various capacitor, cable, and other choices on sound character. I wouldn't say there's a clear conclusion yet other than that they are really clean and transparent and competitive with pretty elite amps, but not perfect and maybe not for everyone.
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My thoughts are that the Ncore is an awesome solid state amp. But at the end of the day, it's still solid state. For me, tubes just sound better.
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Hey Jack,
I realize you're being somewhat facetious, but yup, I think you've got it about right. :P
Analytically, for many reasons, most of them quite objective, I prefer the Ncores as a tool for the evaluation of cables. Its what I do, and for me, it makes changes to cables quite easily discernible. After a couple of weeks with the Ncores, I came to the conclusion that I would be selling my Aksa. Now, 2 months in, I'm not sure. Given my experience with my specific implementation of the Ncore 400s, save for bass, I still prefer that physical/emotional connection I get from my Aksa Lifeforce. It simply makes me want to dance. Thankfully, at my age, the dancing is in my shoes. So, I'm finally going to change the input cabling on the Aksa (talk about the shoemaker's children :oops:) and muck about to see if I can improve upon some characteristics highlighted from my time with the Ncores, while hopefully keeping that emotional connection.
Do I care that my libertine self prefers the more distorted sound? No, not as long as I don't perceive that distortion as such. When folks describe the Lightspeed LDR attenuator's [ or my tubed EAR Acute III cd player/dac ] sound as transparent, resolving, cohesive, detailed, etc... I know that this is a valid subjective perception that doesn't correlate all that well with those metrics that one would typically associate with those adjectives, objectively. Even those more sophisticated LDR implementations from Constellation and DartZeel, would have lower distortion if they simply used switched resistors. Yup, I know were not measuring the right things..... whatever.
That was the long answer, short answer, yes.
FWIW, YMMV,
Paul
EDIT: What I'd really like to try, but couldn't for many reasons, is swap out the Ncore 400's discrete instrumentation amps inputs for one using monolithic OPA2107s op amps.
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Great thread! Please help me understand the overwhelming theme of this thread: if someone loves the Ncore, it's because they are the best amps ever invented and the person has a fine appreciation for undistorted, accurate perfection. If they prefer another amp or if they like the sound of another amp over the Ncore, it's because they prefer colored, distorted sound. Did I get that right?
All amplifiers (or any piece of equipment) impart a sound, even the $400 Ncore modules. And modded Ncores, and Ncore's next gen updates, etc. Some like the sound, some like other amps sounds. I think it's fair to note that most of us who haven't run out and bought Ncores after hearing them were still astounded by their taking Class D to an all new level.
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Thanks guys! I was being a bit facetious and appreciate your comments. Tyson, I hope to hear your system someday! Occam, thanks for the detailed answer. I don't want to get philosophical, but it boils down to our true objective. Are we more interested in some quantitative measurements, analytical data or are we interested in what sounds best to us?
Let me know if you ever decide to sell that AKSA!
Cheers
Jack
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or are we interested in what sounds best to us?
I think that is what has irked me a bit about the Ncore furor. More than a handful of folks have lionized the Ncore as the perfect amp (whether for objective or subjective reasons), irrespective of personal preference. I've heard it, and it's a very good amp and I very much admire both Bruno's expertise and his support of the DIY community, but this is a hobby ruled by personal preference. There is no "right" answer for all comers and no amp or even amp topology will be "best" for all systems and all preferences. Frankly, it'd be a boring hobby if it was.
And to avoid veering too far off topic, I was impressed when I auditioned the Ncore, but thought it was slightly too hot on top compared to my Pass XA30.5 that I heard in the same system during the same session. While I've heard the audition system more than once, I'm certainly not as familiar with it as my own system, and would withhold final judgement of the Ncore until I'd had a chance to live with in my system for a while. (The Ncore owner has since swapped out the binding posts on the Ncore, apparently to good effect, along with several other components in his system.)
The comparison I'd dearly love to hear would be the Ncore vs. the Pass XA30.5 vs. the new First Watt SIT based amps...
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What binding posts did the owner swap out for? I found myself wondering how the tour's ncore would sound with some nice solid Cardas speaker binding posts.
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The comparison I'd dearly love to hear would be the Ncore vs. the Pass XA30.5 vs. the new First Watt SIT based amps...
I'm with you 100% on that. I'm a big First Watt fan and it's clear that from nelson's own comments and those of people who have heard the SIT amps that they are truly extraordinary. Making references to the best amps on the planet is a futile exercise but if you were going to draw up a short list for a shoot out . . .
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Are we more interested in some quantitative measurements, analytical data or are we interested in what sounds best to us?
I would agree with this statement, but from a cost and flexibility standpoint I wonder if this goal is not better achieved in many cases (not all) through a PRE/DSP where one can select different "character" filters to suit their mood, taste and even recordings.
My Metric Halo LIO-8 has a character function that includes some pretty decent tube emulators and from playing around with FIR and IIR filters on a new DAC this weekend it is clear to me how much effect they have on SQ.
Swapping in and out expensive amps, cables, etc. is one way and in some cases perhaps the only way for some, but another I think is to put in place as neutral a front end as possible and then use the last active component in the chain to "adjust to your taste". This is what some guys are doing in effect with the NCORE - using tube pre-amps to achieve a sound quality to suit their taste.
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I think that is what has irked me a bit about the Ncore furor. More than a handful of folks have lionized the Ncore as the perfect amp (whether for objective or subjective reasons), irrespective of personal preference. I've heard it, and it's a very good amp and I very much admire both Bruno's expertise and his support of the DIY community, but this is a hobby ruled by personal preference. There is no "right" answer for all comers and no amp or even amp topology will be "best" for all systems and all preferences. Frankly, it'd be a boring hobby if it was.
And to avoid veering too far off topic, I was impressed when I auditioned the Ncore, but thought it was slightly too hot on top compared to my Pass XA30.5 that I heard in the same system during the same session. While I've heard the audition system more than once, I'm certainly not as familiar with it as my own system, and would withhold final judgement of the Ncore until I'd had a chance to live with in my system for a while. (The Ncore owner has since swapped out the binding posts on the Ncore, apparently to good effect, along with several other components in his system.)
The comparison I'd dearly love to hear would be the Ncore vs. the Pass XA30.5 vs. the new First Watt SIT based amps...
The reality is that only a few people were over the top and made outlandish and silly statements. It was quite easy to take their comments and posts and just move them to the side. The rest of the comments were in line with what you would expect to read from people auditioning or buying new gear.
I want to again thank Jason for providing the opportunity to hear the amps and determine if they were something I wanted to go forward with.
George
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I agree with George, this long long topic is about listening impressions not impressions about how you feel about someone else's listening impressions. Come on guys!
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What binding posts did the owner swap out for? I found myself wondering how the tour's ncore would sound with some nice solid Cardas speaker binding posts.
+1 :thumb: I thought the amps sounded great and i miss their authoritative grip on the low end but they lacked that last little sparkle, that may have been as simple as copper binding posts or eliminating the RCA adapters.
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Hi guys, I'm not saying the recent reviews are like the over the top nonsense we were treated to in the early days if this thread, but there is a subtle but prevalent attitude among many that the Ncore represents perfection and that anyone who prefers another amp must like distortion or colored sound.
The Ncore is very good sounding, but I can imagine someone preferring another amp. Even one that doesnt measure as well as the Ncore. Just sayin...
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I like distorted and colored sound.
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OK guys thanks for the input but once again lets keep it to tour impressions.
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I like distorted and colored sound.
Did you ever try a good solid state or Class-D amp with a tube pre-amp or with a tube buffer combo?? I have been playing some time with that idea? I like the pure, neutral uncolored sound and dynamics the best of these type of amps can give. But it might be the best of both worlds combined when mixing some tubes before the amplification.
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Jason, Maybe split out the musings in here to a thread dedicated to that... "Musings on the NCore Sound"(?)
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It does seem like the guys intent on making this all to do about nothing did have an axe to grind from the beginning, before even hearing them. It's like all glowing reviews, and on DIY dozens of them, and then here you get to this cluster you almost expected. Which out of the blue gets reiterated. As though there is an axe to grind. Just sayin.
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Post here.
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This is a bullcrap thread. Only happy-talk from fanboys allowed on the original thread.
Rclarke, tell the truth. You have to be a 12 year old kid having some fun with your parents' computer. You were the guy posting the most glowing, drippy comments before you ever heard this amp. I'm not here to knock you. If you have to try this hard to be accepted by people, I can only offer you my pity, and wish you the best of luck.
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I like distorted and colored sound.
...and I like slutty girls with piercings and tattoos, who like to drink and party until the wee hours. We all have our weaknesses.
Does this make us bad people?
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Dude, what is your issue? I posted that the amp was damn neutral, but that it didn't make me feel like replacing my current amp. I didn't drool over the thing and I didn't get called out. Why are your panties in a bunch?
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Jackman:
Right on!
Jim
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I'm excited by the technology and anything I wrote was for that. You blew anything I said way out of proportion to the point of putting words in my mouth as though I already heard the amp. Never ever said I did.
But you don't like that. My excitement by this tech somehow gets under your skin.
Anyway, you've truly revealed yourself here, and any review by you has lost any credibility. Bash away. It must feel really good, like when you once had actual testosterone in your system back in the day.
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Do I care that my libertine self prefers the more distorted sound?
Paul, I wouldn't give that to those who think if one prefers other than the Ncore one must be preferring higher distortion. I'm for instance guessing if one sticks Hynes regulators on the driver and input supplies, the audible difference these will make (yes, that's a prediction) won't show in the measurements.
The stock Ncore has a flatness to it to my ear. I've heard more realistic reproduction from amplifiers.
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Anyway, you've truly revealed yourself here, and any review by you has lost any credibility. Bash away. It must feel really good, like when you once had actual testosterone in your sysem back in the day.
Why has any review by jackman lost credibility? I sat right down here on the couch to listen to the ncores, and we agreed on almost everything in relation to the ncores. As I wrote up in my listening impressions of the ncore, the Codas felt more fleshed out in the mids, but didn't have the bass or the highs, nor the ultimate resolution in detail that the ncores had. (Jack correct me if I am wrong of course). As Jack mentioned, he has actually heard these amps, and having been there, I can confirm that his description of them is not offbase. In Jack's system, particularly since he has powered subs, the ncore may or may not give Jack what he is looking for. I know that he was thinking hard about buying ncores the last time we spoke.
I do think that in his own unique way Jack is pointing to a tendency in audio that we all need to be on guard about, lest it lead us to unwise purchases that we may regret: becoming overenthusiastic fanboys of a flavor-of-the-month product or design feature. Designing an audio system is about trade-offs and synergy, and to get caught up in fads that don't take this into account or that ignore other factors that should factor into an audio purchase decision leads to making poor purchasing decisions in the context of the overall listening experience. Especially considering how many audio purchasing decisions are made without ever having heard the component in question (hats off once again to jtwrace for his ncore tour which allows us to actually hear this fabulous product!). Caveat emptor. But let the buyer also be aware that folks posting reviews (or excitedly discussing equipment that they have not heard) may not have similar tastes in music, may be drawn to very different aspects of music and may be listening in systems that differ in significant ways from your own.
And lastly, no need to insult another ACer's testosterone levels. Though I do get a kick out of imagining Jack in panties (but please Jack, no pics).
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And RClark, I am very excited that you will be able to hear the ncores as part of the second tour of these amps. Truly, few have shown as much enthusiasm for these amps as you have.
It will be very interesting to see how your expectations and experience with these amps line up when the amps are in your system.
Wishing everybody nothing but the best in their audio journeys.
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Why has any review by jackman lost credibility? I sat right down here on the couch to listen to the ncores, and we agreed on almost everything in relation to the ncores. As I wrote up in my listening impressions of the ncore, the Codas felt more fleshed out in the mids, but didn't have the bass or the highs, nor the ultimate resolution in detail that the ncores had. (Jack correct me if I am wrong of course). As Jack mentioned, he has actually heard these amps, and having been there, I can confirm that his description of them is not offbase. In Jack's system, particularly since he has powered subs, the ncore may or may not give Jack what he is looking for. I know that he was thinking hard about buying ncores the last time we spoke.
I do think that in his own unique way Jack is pointing to a tendency in audio that we all need to be on guard about, lest it lead us to unwise purchases that we may regret: becoming overenthusiastic fanboys of a flavor-of-the-month product or design feature. Designing an audio system is about trade-offs and synergy, and to get caught up in fads that don't take this into account or that ignore other factors that should factor into an audio purchase decision leads to making poor purchasing decisions in the context of the overall listening experience. Especially considering how many audio purchasing decisions are made without ever having heard the component in question (hats off once again to jtwrace for his ncore tour which allows us to actually hear this fabulous product!). Caveat emptor. But let the buyer also be aware that folks posting reviews (or excitedly discussing equipment that they have not heard) may not have similar tastes in music, may be drawn to very different aspects of music and may be listening in systems that differ in significant ways from your own.
right on.
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I like the thread title...
:D
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I like the thread title...
:D
Except that it should read "Kool-Aid"
Steve
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(http://brokensidewalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/kool-aid-man.jpg)
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Is it really Kool Aid though? Has some sham been perpetrated?
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You'll have to ask my audio consultant, Jim Jones.
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You'll have to ask my audio consultant, Jim Jones.
So wrong, but very funny 8)
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It's amazing the effect only a few people can have on the tone and/or direction of a conversation. In following the Hypex - er - hype most people are sharing the usual feedback and speculation that goes along with any anticipated audio product. But there are only a few folks whose prodigious commentary have managed to influence the discussion. Not laying blame or insinuating - I don't care one way or the other - but it is fascinating. That so few can influence so many. Ah, interweb.
The Ncore is considered solid state? I thought it was a class d?
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Now you know why there isn't anymore Guyana Jokes....
Jim
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And RClark, I am very excited that you will be able to hear the ncores as part of the second tour of these amps. Truly, few have shown as much enthusiasm for these amps as you have.
I don't think my enthusiasm is greater than anyone else's, but I have had to answer back to a lot of stupid posts from supposedly mature gentleman. Never wanted to be a focal point, I was just interested in talking about this new tech and relating what was so far known.
Doesn't matter, my system will soon be done for a good long while and I won't have to burden you all with my enthusiasm.
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The stock Ncore has a flatness to it to my ear. I've heard more realistic reproduction from amplifiers.
I completely agree, but is the flatness prevalent in every build???
I dont understand its huge success with such an obvious fault. :scratch:
I compared the Ncore to my SDS classd amp and another guy brought over a high end chip amp. While both couldnt match the Ncore clarity and punch they were more musical.
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You'll have to ask my audio consultant, Jim Jones.
Hi Roscoe,
I agree with your statements, and its good to hear that you don't want to see me in panties. Also, I'm still thinking about building a set of Ncore amps. They sounded awesome in your system and I'll probably build some once summer is over.
Please note, my comments were not meant to be a slam on the Ncore or the people who like them. They were originally meant to highlight the practice of denegrating the opinions of people who preferred other amps to the Ncore. These opinions were marginalized in the "review" thread by those who concluded people who didn't like the Ncore must like colored or distorted sound. This struck me as arrogant.
I posted my thoughts and they were moved to a thread entitled "opinions of people who have not heard the Ncore" which, in my case was untrue. I heard them and liked them.
Rclark, the day I take your advice on "credibility" will be the day I hang it up. You are a unique fellow, the first guy I've ever seen who forms very strong opinions, and even argues and makes outlandish predictions about gear he has never heard. If I was a manufacturer, I would shudder every time you posted anything about my products. You are literally the equivolant of kriptonite to credibility. I'm still pretty sure you are a 12 year old playing grown up on an audio forum. Good luck to you.
Cheers
Jack
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Hey guys when you were poking fun of us Koolade drinking fanboys :eyebrows: You forgot to mention that Paul McGowan of PS Audio, Jeff Rowland and a host of others you might have heard of are also Koolade drinking fanboys. So much so that there are no more NC1200 going out to new designers. Hypex has now said they have enough companies working with them. Just sayin :rock: :rotflmao:
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Hey guys when you were poking fun of us Koolade drinking fanboys :eyebrows: You forgot to mention that Paul McGowan of PS Audio, Jeff Rowland and a host of others you might have heard of are also Koolade drinking fanboys. So much so that there are no more NC1200 going out to new designers. Hypex has now said they have enough companies working with them. Just sayin :rock: :rotflmao:
I wasn't poking fun at all Ncore fans, just the ones who were taking shots at people who expressed less than unconditional love for the design. As I stated in my previous post, I'm probably going to build a pair later this year. They sounded great, better than my existing amp which sounds pretty good.
Oh, and I was also poking fun at a bandwagon-jumper who routinely expresses his uninformed, yet wildly enthusiastic, views of products he has never heard, Mr. Clarke. That part I can't help for obvious reasons.
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Everything sounds great in our imaginations.
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I wasn't poking fun at all Ncore fans, just the ones who were taking shots at people who expressed less than unconditional love for the design. As I stated in my previous post, I'm probably going to build a pair later this year. They sounded great, better than my existing amp which sounds pretty good.
Oh, and I was also poking fun at a bandwagon-jumper who routinely expresses his uninformed, yet wildly enthusiastic, views of products he has never heard, Mr. Clarke. That part I can't help for obvious reasons.
Fair enough...
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Ditto, understood, fair enough and you are right.
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...Oh, and I was also poking fun at a bandwagon-jumper who routinely expresses his uninformed, yet wildly enthusiastic, views of products he has never heard, Mr. Clarke. That part I can't help for obvious reasons.
The problem is that he doesn't get it and probably never will. However, it will be rather interesting to read his review/opinions of them once he actually does hear them first hand.
Jim
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it will be rather interesting to read his review/opinions of them once he actually does hear them first hand.
I beg to differ. It's just a shame that the legit comments have been overshadowed (or shunted off) by the ... what's the word? "enthusiasm"
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JohnR:
I guess my sarcasm didn't render to the surface.
Jim
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Everything sounds great in our imaginations.
:smoke: :rotflmao:
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Did you ever try a good solid state or Class-D amp with a tube pre-amp or with a tube buffer combo?? I have been playing some time with that idea? I like the pure, neutral uncolored sound and dynamics the best of these type of amps can give. But it might be the best of both worlds combined when mixing some tubes before the amplification.
Oh man, I never would have thought of that! Time to re-evaluate my listening preferences.
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I completely agree, but is the flatness prevalent in every build???
I dont understand its huge success with such an obvious fault. :scratch:
I compared the Ncore to my SDS classd amp and another guy brought over a high end chip amp. While both couldnt match the Ncore clarity and punch they were more musical.
In my experience, thee Ncores do some class D things very well. Class D amplifiers have an ability to bring out what I hear as midrange ambiance and decay---not the really subtle HF ambiance and decay, but the midrange version of that which, in its effect, gives a sense of midrange continuousness and tonality. Combined with their bass control and evident speed on attacks---speed but not extension, ime, i.e., still lacking sparkle and HF extension and realism---class D amps can give the impression of being very detailed and involving. I say "impression" because over time those effects begin to sound to me as if the music is mildly synthesizer-like, and the lack of subtle decay and ambiance---that HF problem of class D, which includes copious ultrasonic noise that modulates down into the audible spectrum---leaves me flat. It's as if the amps, and particularly the Ncores with their high feedback, take away something while giving what they give, which can be impressive so far as it goes: a particular kind of "detail" that other amps ime do not give. Yet there is for me a sense of suck-out at the same time.
I think the Ncores deal with certain forms of class D noise uniquely. It appears they inject a form of digital (PWM) feedback which addresses dead-time and nonlinearities of the switching stage, which gives the Ncores a boost beyond what other class D amps can attain.
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Hey guys when you were poking fun of us Koolade drinking fanboys :eyebrows: You forgot to mention that Paul McGowan of PS Audio, Jeff Rowland and a host of others you might have heard of are also Koolade drinking fanboys. So much so that there are no more NC1200 going out to new designers. Hypex has now said they have enough companies working with them. Just sayin :rock: :rotflmao:
PS Audio's planned amps will not be using the NC1200 modules, see:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=107779.msg1114859#msg1114859
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I am getting a broken link?
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I am getting a broken link?
Try this one...
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=107779.msg1114859#msg1114859
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Now that the initial buzz and “best amp evea! (In an exaggerated Boston twang) is passing, a realistic assessment on the Ncore vs. the rest is starting to emerge. It’s always interesting to see how any flavor of the month piece holds up over time. ;)
No doubt they are excellent performers, but like any piece of audio equipment, it falls short in one or more areas. It just depends on how one assesses the overall sound over time. I’m sure many of us have one or more items that initially grabbed us with a “wow” factor, only to have that fade over time once you got used to its overall performance. :thumb:
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Thanks Barry, that did it. :thumb:
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As far as any "claims" I've made, all I did was report and discuss what was going on in the DIY thread.
In the beginning, I was one of the only people actually going over there and reading this stuff. First there are about 80-90 pages discussing the technical merits of the design, and a lot of anticipation. Then the reviews starting coming in, from well established users with impressive systems, verifying the claims and extolling the virtues of the amp. Considering everything about the topic, yes I was very excited and wanted to make sure people here became aware of what was happening. People had questions, and i constantly directed them to the diy thread, or I would answer if I knew the answer.That's all. Carry on.
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I puzzle some over the type of post that initiated this thread as well as this one:
Now that the initial buzz and “best amp evea! (In an exaggerated Boston twang) is passing, a realistic assessment on the Ncore vs. the rest is starting to emerge. It’s always interesting to see how any flavor of the month piece holds up over time. ;)
In reality, I suspect that many have had a similar experience to me. We heard good things about Hypex previously, and decided to give the Ncores a try based on the company's solid reputation and some positive comments from early adopters.
We bought and built the Ncores. For those of us who felt they sounded better than the amps we had in place, we were happy, and we left the Ncores in place because we liked them better. Some of us reported that, some of us didn't. And that's pretty much it. From the vast majority of us, you heard no such absurd pronouncement of "best ever" or anything like it.
This is a hobby for many of us, so part of the fun is trying new things and maybe improving our system a bit. Sometimes works, sometimes doesn't, but it's all part of the fun, right?
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Steidl, consider the mocking of those who originally expressed other than just praise for the Ncores. I think you'll find your answer there.
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Like this post, and those following:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=107607.msg1112252#msg1112252
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It is unfathomable why the same few people just can't stop whining and complaining about the over the top enthusiasm shown for a product by a couple of people. Why do you continue to post the same mundane, pissy comments? We got it, you think the ncore is overhyped. Really, we understand. It's Ok, it has been noted. Go pee on someone else's parade for a while. Or get a job, kick the dog, or any other means by which you can focus your angst and surplus of free time.....
Most of the people that have actually spent the time to listen to this amp have bought one. I know of no better indicator of its quality. I would think even the most close minded of audiots would start to get it- these are amps worth listening to, and perhaps there is something to all the positive comments from those who have heard them....Now, if you just like to troll, well, there is no fix for that....
I apologize if I appeared to be mocking anyone....it was simply incredulousness that someone who self-admittedly "had no idea who this amp works" could think he could improve it. But maybe you can. I hope to follow your progress.
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It is unfathomable why the same few people just can't stop whining and complaining about the over the top enthusiasm shown for a product by a couple of people. Why do you continue to post the same mundane, pissy comments? We got it, you think the ncore is overhyped. Really, we understand. It's Ok, it has been noted. Go pee on someone else's parade for a while. Or get a job, kick the dog, or any other means by which you can focus your angst and surplus of free time.....
Most of the people that have actually spent the time to listen to this amp have bought one. I know of no better indicator of its quality. I would think even the most close minded of audiots would start to get it- these are amps worth listening to, and perhaps there is something to all the positive comments from those who have heard them....Now, if you just like to troll, well, there is no fix for that....
I apologize if I appeared to be mocking anyone....it was simply incredulousness that someone who self-admittedly "had no idea who this amp works" could think he could improve it. But maybe you can. I hope to follow your progress.
So did you read Occam(Paul Kaplan's) comments? Paul owns the Ncores.
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So did you read Occam(Paul Kaplan's) comments? Paul owns the Ncores.
Yes, what is your point?
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Yes, what is your point?
Now, if you just like to troll, well, there is no fix for that....
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Why do you continue to post the same mundane, pissy comments? We got it, you think the ncore is overhyped. Really, we understand. It's Ok, it has been noted. Go pee on someone else's parade for a while. Or get a job, kick the dog, or any other means by which you can focus your angst and surplus of free time.....
Now, if you just like to troll, well, there is no fix for that....
Back off cab. No need for insults like what you wrote above.
Let's permit ACers who are skeptical to provide a useful counterbalance to the enthusiasm of others. I think it is entirely reasonable to point out where the ncores may not quite equal other top-notch amps. And I don't think I know of anyone who has heard them that hasn't liked many of the amps' qualities (and this includes jackman). And let's certainly point out and make clear which comments are based on actual listneing experience and which aren't.
And let's keep AC civil. Comments can and should be made without insults.
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it was simply incredulousness that someone who self-admittedly "had no idea who this amp works" could think he could improve it.
Actually, I lied when I said that, as at that time I knew the amp had an input and an output.
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It isn't about skepticism, it's about the same few people that like to jump in every chance they get and whine about the over the top comments made by a couple of people at most, but mostly one person. Why the need to repeat this ad nauseum in every thread about the ncore?
And it certainly isn't useful either. I am not talking about people that have heard the product and for whatever reason, don't like it, and have added their input. No problem with that....But what value is added by the same few people who haven't heard the product, but can't help stating over and over again how it is hyped? They are just as bad as the guy they are always whining about....
Again, no one said it is perfect, or that it is for everyone, and I certainly wouldn't expect everyone to like it.
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Jeeze Cab,
I like the way you use "we" in your posts, as if you speak for other people. Tell the truth, are you including your imaginary friends in the discussion? You Ncore fanboys are a touchy bunch.
We have a suggestion, and by we I mean me and all of my imaginary friends. Why don't you just sit back, put down the Koop-Aid and enjoy your system. Put on your favorite cd and chill. Write Bruno another love letter and maybe fire off another caustic post on the "Ncore improvements" thread. I'm sure (we are sure) you will feel better about the world.
We wish you all the best.
Cheers
J
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We wish you all the best.
Cheers
J
Thanks, that means a lot.....
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So did you read Occam(Paul Kaplan's) comments? Paul owns the Ncores.
I'm a poor choice for poster boy to promote any specific view....
Yup, I've had my Ncores for nigh on 2 months and am not totally happy with them. But that is by no means a criticism of the product, but an acknowledgement that optimizing a system is hard. It took me 3 months to truly be happy with my EAR Acute CD player. It took many iterations, a gradient search if you will, to come up with a proper combination of tubes and isolation that worked (for me) when powering my Aksa Lifeforce directly. I ended up with Siemens PCC88s with Herbies Ultrasonic SS dampers and Stillpoints for isolation. Anyone familiar with the Siemens 'sound' would opine they're anything but warm and cuddly. It also tells one that (assuming the cabling is neutral) that if my goal is neutrality (with a scootch of warmth) that the Aksa leans towards a warm sound.
Given that, it shouldn't surprise anyone that substituting an off the cuff implementation of the Ncore 400s for the Aksa Lifeforce isn't going to be optimal from my perspective. The only thing I concluded from this is that the Ncores aren't as subjectively warm as the Aksa. So I'll change out some of the internal wiring in my Ncore build and try some other tweeks. I'll try different PCC88/ECC88s and compare them with different tube dampers in the EAR cd player. I'll swap isolation devices using Stillpoints, brass cones and BDR cones.
And then I'll go about re-integrating my CAT SL-1 preamp as I miss my vinyl playback, which will be yet more grief. Frankly, if I didn't manufacture balanced interconnects, I'd wouldn't have bought the Ncore. But I do, and the Ncore is an excellent choice.
For those of you who can pick one (component, cable, etc...) from column A, one from column B and get a system that satisfies your needs, good on ya. It took me 4 months to get my Marten speakers performing the way I wanted. It certainly doesn't upset me that optimizing my system for a new amp doesn't happen instantaneously. Its never worked that way for me in the past, and I don't expect anything different in the future. YMMV
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For those of you who can pick one (component, cable, etc...) from column A, one from column B and get a system that satisfies your needs, good on ya. It took me 4 months to get my Marten speakers performing the way I wanted. It certainly doesn't upset me that optimizing my system for a new amp doesn't happen instantaneously. Its never worked that way for me in the past, and I don't expect anything different in the future. YMMV
Yes, been there done that many times. This is the insanity part of being an audiophile.
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For those of you who can pick one (component, cable, etc...) from column A, one from column B and get a system that satisfies your needs, good on ya. It took me 4 months to get my Marten speakers performing the way I wanted. It certainly doesn't upset me that optimizing my system for a new amp doesn't happen instantaneously. Its never worked that way for me in the past, and I don't expect anything different in the future. YMMV
+100. Totally agree.
Anand.
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Yes, been there done that many times. This is the insanity part of being an audiophile.
No, just buy the best amp evah and the best speakers evah and the best DAC evah and the best cables evah and you'll have a system that rulz!!! And if it's all stuff you never auditioned and ordered online, even bettah!!!!
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No, just buy the best amp evah and the best speakers evah and the best DAC evah and the best cables evah and you'll have a system that rulz!!! And if it's all stuff you never auditioned and ordered online, even bettah!!!!
Or buy Bose!
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No, just buy the best amp evah and the best speakers evah and the best DAC evah and the best cables evah and you'll have a system that rulz!!!
...Anyone disagree?
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No, just buy the best amp evah and the best speakers evah and the best DAC evah and the best cables evah and you'll have a system that rulz!!! And if it's all stuff you never auditioned and ordered online, even bettah!!!!
Dear RClark:
The full quote makes a complete thought and statement and with the proper dose of sarcasm and humor.
Jim
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Oh, don't get me wrong, the things I'm poking fun at are the EXACT same things I have done myself, in the past. Live and learn... :)
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Oh, don't get me wrong, the things I'm poking fun at are the EXACT same things I have done myself, in the past. Live and learn... :)
Tyson:
I think we all can recount our trials and errors in the process. I can also recall all of the times I've heard this was this or that and get all excited and then made the trek to hear something first hand and was underwhelmed. It is all worth it when there is the unexpected that really grabs your ears and won't let go. I'm fortunate to have been able to afford some of those "grabs your ears..." things along the way.
One thing for certain, I don't hype anything that I haven't personally auditioned and this seems to be the divide here against those who do and continue to after being called out for it.
Jim
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"Can't we all just get along?"--Rodney King
:cry:
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Tyson:
I think we all can recount our trials and errors in the process. I can also recall all of the times I've heard this was this or that and get all excited and then made the trek to hear something first hand and was underwhelmed. It is all worth it when there is the unexpected that really grabs your ears and won't let go. I'm fortunate to have been able to afford some of those "grabs your ears..." things along the way.
One thing for certain, I don't hype anything that I haven't personally auditioned and this seems to be the divide here against those who do and continue to after being called out for it.
Jim
Yeah, but we've actually been through the process. I think Rclark is still in the enthusiastic beginning phase. Nothing wrong with that, I wish sometimes I could recapture that pure joy of always anticipating that next best thing. Now I'm pretty jaded and cynical about a lot of new gear.
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"Can't we all just get along?"--Rodney King
:cry:
Just look where that got him. . . :o
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I wish sometimes I could recapture that pure joy of always anticipating that next best thing.
And the letdown when you get it, and the gradual dawning of that "I've been had" realisation? No thanks :lol:
Not saying that anyone would feel that way about the NCores, of course :peek:
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Not saying that anyone would feel that way about the NCores, of course :peek:
Certainly not tour members...that's why the tour is helpful. :wink:
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Yes, the tour is a fantastic opportunity for people who are interested. While it is supposed to be a DIY project, it's still a fairly hefty upfront outlay (for a DIY project...)
I was just making the disclaimer that my comments were about my own past experience, not intimating anything about NCore.
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Oh, don't get me wrong, the things I'm poking fun at are the EXACT same things I have done myself, in the past. Live and learn... :)
Agree 100%. Just poking a little fun at this subject. As Tyson adroitly put it:
"Oh, don't get me wrong, the things I'm poking fun at are the EXACT same things I have done myself, in the past."
Guilty as charged." :thumb:
On a different note, sadly, insults generally mean that one has no rational or reasonable argument to make, so they throw out insults to obfuscate the fact they have no reasonable argument to make to begin with. :roll:
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I have to take one thing back - I am giddy as a schoolgirl on my current "next best thing" - an Epson 5010 projector, to replace my broken, 7 year old Panasonic AE900. 3x the light output, better blacks, much better contrast and color saturation, higher resolution, and it's 3D capable. Can't wait to watch some quality 3D blurays on a 100 inch screen! Or even some 3D games on my PS3, that would be tres cool 8)
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I recently had the opportunity to hear the nCore amps as I was building a pair for a friend. I got to listen with about 3 days of use on the amps, so I limit my comments to understanding that they will sound somewhat different with more comprehensive break in:
The good: exceptionally low noise floor, and state of the art detail retrieval, good dynamics, and excellent bass resonse and control.
The questionable: high frequencies just do not seem to be totally fleshed out: that is, things likes bells, cymbals, and chimes seem to have a bit truncated decays, missing the full harmonic envelope.
My impression is that something is actually missing from the output of the nCore, something which is present at the input, and is not the result of distortion in other amplifiers. Does anyone else notice this quality?
My amplifier for reference is a Pass X150.5.
Despite my reservations, I do think the nCores are exceptional in many ways, and I am interested enough in them that I would like to build up a stereo version for my own use and further evaluation. But, I was not "blown away" as many people seem to be, at least not enough to sell my Pass in order to fund a top level nCore build.
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My experience parallels yours, Barrows. Among the excellent things the Ncores do, at their worst they sound flat, dull and sucked-out in certain important ways they reproduce mid and high frequencies. I suspect feedback is partly the source for these qualities.
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Since there have only been a few comments similar to these about the top end, versus dozens of others that have not found such fault, I can't help but wonder if the problem isn't further up the chain.....
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Nope. My source was a DragonFly DAC which has none of that flatness and dullery, etc.
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Since there have only been a few comments similar to these about the top end, versus dozens of others that have not found such fault, I can't help but wonder if the problem isn't further up the chain.....
Hi Cab,
Maybe you should start a happy-talk thread where only positive views of the Ncore are allowed. Questioning the views of people who express less than overwhelmingly positive comments about the Ncore is pathetic.
I'm sure the happy-talk thread will get lots of action...especially if you offer free Kool-Aid! You may want to serve the sugar free version because there are some big drinkers around here.
Cheers
Jack
PS - I like the Ncore and plan to build a set. People who have auditioned the amp are allowed to have opinions and some may even differ from mine.
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Cab, king of sliced bread, keeper of the NCore faith, always there to belittle those who are less than totally committed to the cause of NCore.
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Maybe you should start a remedial reading thread for people who can't seem to comprehend the written word. Or maybe a words in mouth thread for those that like to add their own misconceptions. Or how about a frustrated comedian thread for those that think their snarky, smart ass comments are actually funny?
Or maybe you can just point to where I wrote that different views are not allowed, or where I wrote that people aren't allowed to have opinions other than mine.
I am simply pointing out the possibility that the fault isn't with the ncore. Perhaps that concept is lost on you.....
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Cab, king of sliced bread, keeper of the NCore faith, always there to belittle those who are less than totally committed to the cause of NCore.
Suggesting other possibilities is not belittling anyone.
Portraying someone as "always there to belittle",is in itself, belittlement. Congrats pot.
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Someone should buy Jackman a "Jump to Conclusions Matt" that guy from the movie office space had for sale.
Jackman, would you consider the possibility that in some systems, some of the components aren't as good as this amp?
Because as I scoured all the reviews, I've found that those with super high end systems can find no fault.
Please take a xanax before you answer.
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And speaking mostly of the diyaudio reviews, many of those guys have jaw dropping systems...
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Suggesting other possibilities is not belittling anyone.
Portraying someone as "always there to belittle",is in itself, belittlement. Congrats pot.
I suggest that the criticisms of the NCore offerered are valid and don't need you suggesting that the problems must be elsewhere in their system. Your need to constantly defend the NCore and try to poke holes in anyone else's criticisms smack of insecurity and are a disservice to a fine pair of amps.
AP
p.s.
I do find the snarky comments funny.
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I suggest that the criticisms of the NCore offerered are valid and don't need you suggesting that the problems must be elsewhere in their system. Your need to constantly defend the NCore and try to poke holes in anyone else's criticisms smack of insecurity and are a disservice to a fine pair of amps.
AP
p.s.
I do find the snarky comments funny.
I suggested there are other possibilities which did not include the word "must". I suggest that is your own addition.
Your "suggestion" is an unsupported opinion. Everyone, they say, has one. I prefer to defer to the bulk of the evidence, which would point to problems other than with the ncore. It could be the ncore but only a few people have mentioned it, out of dozens and dozens. Prudence would dictate looking deeper into the situation rather than jumping to a possibly erroneous conclusion. I am not defending the ncore as much as I am defending common logic and the possible non sequitur some seem all too ready to grab at as a certainty. If you have bothered to read all the reviews, you know that many people have commented on how the ncore reveals all the weaknesses upstream. You would also know that nearly every time someone has thought there was noise in the output, glare, or other problems, they have come back and said that after further investigation, they found the issue to be caused upstream.
PS- Thankfully some people are easily entertained.
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I suggested there are other possibilities which did not include the word "must". I suggest that is your own addition.
Your "suggestion" is an unsupported opinion. Everyone, they say, has one. I prefer to defer to the bulk of the evidence, which would point to problems other than with the ncore. It could be the ncore but only a few people have mentioned it, out of dozens and dozens. Prudence would dictate looking deeper into the situation rather than jumping to a possibly erroneous conclusion. I am not defending the ncore as much as I am defending common logic and the possible non sequitur some seem all too ready to grab at as a certainty.
PS- Thankfully some people are easily entertained.
Yes, my opinion, is just that, my opinion. It is as valid, as are the opinions of others. Some think the NCore are a bit flat. Some think they are the perfect amps. Some thought they were perfect and now reserve judgement. Your "evidence" is just opinion. Nothing more. I don't care that you seem to think they are the best amps. What is so hard to stomache is the zealotry. RCark may be the most annoying poster about NCore, but you are a close second. Go for the gold!
AP
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Cab,
Maybe you are right. After all, you have a heavy hitter like Rclark backing you up with his measured, well thought, and objective views This amp is so great, Rclark has been involved in several heated discussions and arguments, defending the amp, extolling its virtues, and making bold predictions - despite the fact that he has never heard it. His "review" was written long ago and I'm sure he is just waiting to get the amp in house long enough to officially bust the seal on a fresh tin of Kool-Aid. Drink up!
Rclark, I don't need Xanax. Whenever I feel a bit down, I can always rely on the words of wisdom you spew...er, graciously share with the fortunate people of AC to bring a smile to my face. Works every time.
Cheers
Jack
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Can you just answer the question without going into the usual hysterics?
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Cab,
Maybe you are right. After all, you have a heavy hitter like Rclark backing you up with his measured, well thought, and objective views This amp is so great, Rclark has been involved in several heated discussions and arguments, defending the amp, extolling its virtues, and making bold predictions - despite the fact that he has never heard it. His "review" was written long ago and I'm sure he is just waiting to get the amp in house long enough to officially bust the seal on a fresh tin of Kool-Aid. Drink up!
Rclark, I don't need Xanax. Whenever I feel a bit down, I can always rely on the words of wisdom you spew...er, graciously share with the fortunate people of AC to bring a smile to my face. Works every time.
Cheers
Jack
Seems a few little boys get a kick out of beating up on RClark by poking at his favorite toy.
So the guy is irrationally exuberant. BFD. Not everyone is a jaded cynic. He's not hurting anyone. Yet the bullying continues....
I tend to place more weight on the 50 or so agreeing opinions I have read in serious threads rather than 2-3 dissenting ones posted under a "Kool-Aid drinking Fanboy" thread. And I put the most weight of all on my own experience. Everyone is indeed entitled to their own opinion. I don't consider any opinion valid if it isn't based on personal experience, and those that are, certainly are open to logical analysis. If people can't handle having their beliefs questioned, they should perhaps be a bit more guarded in sharing them in an open forum.
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Rclark and cab, here's an idea, maybe DON'T keep posting in a thread that is specifically for trying to maintain a discussion devoid of your respective opinions. I mean come on guys, really? Let's be honest this thread is pretty much a polite attempt to avoid you, but you show up all the same. Just let the thread be. You both seem like otherwise reasonable people. If you've got a *thread* on a forum calling you a kool-aid drinking fanboy you know, i don't know, maybe it's time to reassess your approach. IF you feel unfairly set upon, then take the high road and move on. Win-win for everybody.
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Most of the reviews are generated after only having auditioning them for a few days. In my over 40 years of listening to music, I can honestly say that it takes more than a few days to really understand what you are hearing.
This is precisely why most professional reviewers listen to the item they're reviewing for at least a week before putting to pen their comments and opinions.
I can also say that in all of my years, never has one item caused so much rancor, but apparently only on the AC and the DIY forum. The other audiophile based forums have been spared.
TAS asked several prominent amp designers their opinions a few issues back and most thought that Class D hadn't come of age yet. Many cited inherent flaws with switching amps that may never be overcome.
Jim
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Hey Cab,
I wasn't bullying anyone. Rclark stuck his nose in, and needed to get slapped down for posting gibberish and nonsense. Also, some might say the bullies are the ones who badger or question anyone who has something less than glowingly positive to say about the Ncore. People like...let me see...oh, you for instance.
You probably don't even realize you are doing it but you only seem to question people who have less than positive things to say about the Ncore. When they prefer another amp to the Ncore, you question their system or objectivity, but when they like it a lot, it's obviously because they have refined taste and a perfect system, and you give them a pass. This is why I started the Kool-Aid thread.
It is possible people have different opinions than you and I. People even change their mind about what sounds good or what tastes good. You know what they say, variety is the spice of life. Maybe that's why they make so many darn delicious flavors of Kool-Aid. :D
Drink it up!
J
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Look through all the ncore threads and you will find the same 3-4 people posting the same blah blah blah, though it seems none of them have actually heard it yet...rubberneckers? bullies? what?
It is only natural to ponder the negative results mentioned by a few in the face of so many positive experiences. Who questions the results that agree with one's own?
You started the Kool-Aid thread because you think you are funny and wanted to be provocative. Your replies to me are filled with sarcasm and put-downs, the lowest form of humor.
Again, point me to where exactly I said people can't have differing opinions. Or better still, offer something of value by way of explaining why you think the experiences of the few posters here don't agree with the vastly greater number of those that have posted their opinions?
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Oh, look, here come the rest of the usual suspects, always adding their $0.02 every time the ncore is a topic! Look through all the ncore threads and you will find the same 3-4 people posting the same blah blah blah, though it seems none of them have actually heard it yet...Like rubberneckers at an accident scene...Or bullies in the playground.
It is only natural to ponder the negative results mentioned by a few in the face of so many positive experiences. Who questions the results that agree with one's own?
You started the Kool-Aid thread because you think you are funny and wanted to be provocative. Your replies to me are filled with sarcasm and put-downs, the lowest form of humor.
Again, point me to where exactly I said people can't have differing opinions. Or better still, offer something of value by way of explaining why you think the experiences of the few posters here don't agree with the vastly greater number of those that have posted their opinions?
Perhaps you should slap yourself down for all the gibberish and nonsense you seem to have in inexhaustible supply.
now you're just trolling.
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Most of the reviews are generated after only having auditioning them for a few days. In my over 40 years of listening to music, I can honestly say that it takes more than a few days to really understand what you are hearing.
This is precisely why most professional reviewers listen to the item they're reviewing for at least a week before putting to pen their comments and opinions.
I can also say that in all of my years, never has one item caused so much rancor, but apparently only on the AC and the DIY forum. The other audiophile based forums have been spared.
TAS asked several prominent amp designers their opinions a few issues back and most thought that Class D hadn't come of age yet. Many cited inherent flaws with switching amps that may never be overcome.
Jim
No, most of the reviews are on a different forum and have been generated by people that actually own the product, have built the product, and have compared the product.
Class d hasn't come of age yet? Wake up Rip! Try listening to the state of the art to experience first hand what is possible instead of reading about what is not.
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now you're just trolling.
This whole thread is a troll....
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This whole thread is a troll....
Then...don't feed it.
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medium jim, and a few others,TAS issue is not several issues back but several years back. The amp designers all had a vested interest in their own designs and could hardly be called objective. Also what is stated as imposable or inherent flaws today does not mean that it will be tomorrow. If that was the case the earth would still be flat, the sun would orbit the earth, man would not fly and reach the moon to name a few. I have no problem with opposing listening impressions of the Ncore. As I have stated before we all will have different likes. But I do not think cab is wrong and asking if it could be something else in the system chain that might be the cause. That would be a reasonable question if it was any type of equipment change. And finally I find it most interesting that most, but not all, of the biggest critics on this thread were also the biggest Fanboys of class A-A/B and the biggest critics of class D on an early thread here on AC. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105826.msg1082555#msg1082555
I am not going to get into a debate, this is just my observations, take it or leave it.
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Cab:
What exactly is your buy in to the Ncores. I don't mean that you own them, but why do feel so compelled to bully each and everyone who presents a different view or opinion of them?
It is clear that you are impressed by them, so why don't you just relish that fact and move on. Tell you what, if you stop posting about them, so will I. Talk about a total win/win. Unfortunately, there is nothing that can be done to thwart Mr. Clark.
Jim
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medium jim, and a few others,TAS issue is not several issues back but several years back. The amp designers all had a vested interest in their own designs and could hardly be called objective. Also what is stated as imposable or inherent flaws today does not mean that it will be tomorrow. If that was the case the earth would still be flat, the sun would orbit the earth, man would not fly and reach the moon to name a few. I have no problem with opposing listening impressions of the Ncore. As I have stated before we all will have different likes. But I do not think cab is wrong and asking if it could be something else in the system chain that might be the cause. That would be a reasonable question if it was any type of equipment change. And finally I find it most interesting that most, but not all, of the biggest critics on this thread were also the biggest Fanboys of class A-A/B and the biggest critics of class D on an early thread here on AC. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105826.msg1082555#msg1082555
I am not going to get into a debate, this is just my observations, take it or leave it.
I find it most interesting people who make accusations - but are 'not going to get into a debate'.
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hifial:
Wrong, the May/June 2012 TAS was about amps and several amp designers chimed in about the state of Class D. I good read indeed.
Jim
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I find it most interesting people who make accusations - but are 'not going to get into a debate'.
Would this be considered a troll?
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hifial:
Wrong, the May/June 2012 TAS was about amps and several amp designers chimed in about the state of Class D. I good read indeed.
Jim
Does this statement:
"The amp designers all had a vested interest in their own designs and could hardly be called objective."
No longer hold true?
I guess PS Audio, Rowland, Theta, Bel Canto, and a whole host of others weren't party to the discussion....
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Would this be considered a troll?
You know you're trolling, bro. You seem reasonable enough at diyaudio when within your element, but seem to relish getting into people's faces interweb-style on this forum. You see Jtwrace getting in a huff over here?
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cab:
Jeff Rowland was one of the amp designers and he also panned them.
Jim
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Cab:
What exactly is your buy in to the Ncores. I don't mean that you own them, but why do feel so compelled to bully each and everyone who presents a different view or opinion of them?
It is clear that you are impressed by them, so why don't you just relish that fact and move on. Tell you what, if you stop posting about them, so will I. Talk about a total win/win. Unfortunately, there is nothing that can be done to thwart Mr. Clark.
Jim
"bully each and everyone who presents a different view or opinion of them?" Seriously? No, really? Bullied each and every one? Usually I only "slapp(ed) down (those) posting gibberish and nonsense."
See, I have a legitimate basis for posting in ncore threads: I have built them, I have listened to them for many hours, and I have compared them to other amps. Then there are others, such as yourself, that see fit, despite the fact that you have never even heard them, and know little to nothing of their technical workings,bto chime in every chance you get and make disparaging remarks about something you have no direct experience with. You ARE the yang to RClark's ying! He is illogically positive, and you are illogically negative...
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Someone should buy Jackman a "Jump to Conclusions Matt"
I'll let you slide on this one. Too easy... :lol:
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cab:
Jeff Rowland was one of the amp designers and he also panned them.
Jim
Really? I guess he forgot that he has been making and selling class d amps for several years, or that he has been readying a product based on Hypex modules, which he absolutely loves, at least that is what Paul McGowan at PS Audio posted last week,....
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You know you're trolling, bro. You seem reasonable enough at diyaudio when within your element, but seem to relish getting into people's faces interweb-style on this forum. You see Jtwrace getting in a huff over here?
I think you know you are trolling, dude.
And I only get into people's faces when they get in mine first, so just back off....
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Can:
You irrationally defend them to no end. It is great that you think they're the best thing ever. I personally think I already have the schnitzel. The point I'm trying to make is very simple, let each and everyone come to their own opinion of them and stop forcing yourself on everyone.
I respect many of the amp designers who were asked their opinion regarding the state of Class D. It confirmed what I have personally experienced with the class D amps that I have heard first hand.
You still haven't answered what your "Buy In" is.
Jim
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"bully each and everyone who presents a different view or opinion of them?" Seriously? No, really? Bullied each and every one? Usually I only "slapp(ed) down (those) posting gibberish and nonsense."
See, I have a legitimate basis for posting in ncore threads: I have built them, I have listened to them for many hours, and I have compared them to other amps. Then there are others, such as yourself, that see fit, despite the fact that you have never even heard them, and know little to nothing of their technical workings,bto chime in every chance you get and make disparaging remarks about something you have no direct experience with. You ARE the yang to RClark's ying! He is illogically positive, and you are illogically negative...
We get it. You're a self-anointed authority on Ncores and will suffer no fools, etc. We get that. Boy do we get that. Problem is you're just turning a bunch of people off with poor communication skills and seem incapable of not having the last word.
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Really? I guess he forgot that he has been making and selling class d amps for several years, or that he has been readying a product based on Hypex modules, which he absolutely loves, at least that is what Paul McGowan at PS Audio posted last week,....
Maybe you should take the time to read the TAS. His last 2 sentences about class d were not very flattering.
Jim
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Echoes of Dan The Man...
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First, I love NCore just for the threads.
Second, I highly doubt Jeff Rowland panned class D. Many of his amps are ICE based!
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We get it. You're a self-anointed authority on Ncores and will suffer no fools, etc. We get that. Boy do we get that. Problem is you're just turning a bunch of people off with poor communication skills and seem incapable of not having the last word.
No, I am turning off people that insist on throwing in their insults and snark when they are unable to offer anything of substance.
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at least that is what Paul McGowan at PS Audio posted last week,....
Paul McGowan also said today and yesterday that preamps are dead. Are you now going to throw your preamp away?
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No, I am turning off people that insist on throwing in their insults and snark when they are unable to offer anything of substance.
So now we come full circle back to the troll question, your response, and my more than helpful reply.
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Maybe you should take the time to read the TAS. His last 2 sentences about class d were not very flattering.
Jim
From Paul McGowan:
"By Paul McGowangravatarcloseAuthor: Paul McGowan Name: Paul McGowan
Site: http://www.psaudio.com
My friend and fellow audio designer Jeff Rowland came by to say hi the other day. Jeff’s always a welcome guest as he and I manage to nearly always be on parallel paths when it comes to product designs. I found Jeff and friend Tim Jerome in our listening room playing music on the new amp we’re working on developing. I’ve written before that this new amplifier is a stunning breakthrough in audio reproduction and to date I haven’t heard anything close.
The amp technology I am referring to is, as many of you guessed, based on the new Hypex class D technology and sure to form Jeff had independently made the same decision and was on a parallel path to building his own version."
Reading this, and knowing that Rowland has been selling class d amps for a long time now, I tend to believe he likes them....
"stunning breakthrough in audio reproduction" and "to date I haven’t heard anything close." Sounds like he likes them too....
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Paul McGowan also said today and yesterday that preamps are dead.
Can you post the link on this?
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Also, guys, please treat each other with some respect. Just as a refresher see the guidelines here http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=37305.msg333476#msg333476
I think it's safe to say that people will like and dislike any piece of audio equipment or a car. Bottom line, respect that persons opinion and leave it at that. Is it that hard?
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"Bottom line, respect that persons opinion and leave it at that. "
Amen....
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Can you post the link on this?
Today
http://www.pstracks.com/pauls-posts/era/7659/#comments
yesterday
http://www.pstracks.com/pauls-posts/dacs-preamps/7628/
Sign up for his daily newsletter, it is very informative.
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Today
http://www.pstracks.com/pauls-posts/era/7659/#comments
yesterday
http://www.pstracks.com/pauls-posts/dacs-preamps/7628/
Thanks. :thumb:
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Here's Jeff Rowland's last two sentences when asked about Class D (May/June 2012 TAS pg 71):
"...Strict adherence to a class designation for an audio designer is like asking a painter to reduce the number of colors on his palette. The end result may be less vivid than you had hoped for."
Jeff's words, not mine...
Jim
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Here's Jeff Rowland's last two sentences when asked about Class D (May/June 2012 TAS pg 71):
"...Strict adherence to a class designation for an audio designer is like asking a painter to reduce the number of colors on his palette. The end result may be less vivid than you had hoped for."
Jeff's words, not mine...
Jim
I don't find that a put down on class d in any way....he could be taking about class A as well....
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A somewhat surprise on the Theta website, Theta has taken off their earlier announcement of the new Hypex based Prometheus amps.
I wonder what that is all about. :scratch:
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Medium Jim, you are misunderstanding Jeff Rowland.
Here is the full question and anwser.
Is Class D competitive with linear
designs in sound quality, and if not, will
it ever be?
I consider Class D to be highly
competitive in the present, and to offer
an evolutionary pathway of audio
design that may produce even more
astonishing results in the future. Again,
it is not a matter of class distinction.
The application of technology is what is
important. It can produce brilliant or poor
results depending on its implementation.
Strict adherence to a class designation for
an audio designer is like asking a painter
to reduce the number of colors on his
palette. The end result may be less vivid than you had hoped for.
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A somewhat surprise on the Theta website, Theta has taken off their earlier announcement of the new Hypex based Prometheus amps.
I wonder what that is all about. :scratch:
Maybe they gave up after reading the comments in this thread and realized ncore is all hype.
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Medium Jim, you are misunderstanding Jeff Rowland.
Here is the full question and anwser.
And that, as they say, is the rest of the story....
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I don't find that a put down on class d in any way....he could be taking about class A as well....
Cab:
Before you rush to silly judgements, the question he responded to was solely about Class D..."Is Class D competetive with linear designs in sound quality, and if not, will it ever be?"
It was clear that he was referring to Class D....
Jim
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BUT, his anwser refers to the previous question where he basiclly says he does not class descriminate.
You choose to work primarily in solidstate
Class AB and in Class D. What
are the advantages you see to your
chosen technologies?Over my career I have designed using a
wide variety of technologies. I prefer to
believe that my work displays a willingness
to explore audio design regardless of
class designation. While my basic design
goals seem best suited to the solid-state
domain, I am not overly concerned about
which class of technological platform
I work within. You might say I am a
proponent of the classless society of
audio design, taking the best that each has
to offer in an attempt to create the finest
components possible.
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Today
http://www.pstracks.com/pauls-posts/era/7659/#comments
yesterday
http://www.pstracks.com/pauls-posts/dacs-preamps/7628/
Sign up for his daily newsletter, it is very informative.
Oh Snap!
Cab,
I was not slamming the Ncore in my posts, just the people who feel the need to question and badger anyone expressing an opinion of the Ncore that isn't glowingly positive. I could care less what the guys on the DIY site say about this amp. I like it because I listened with my own ears. I also respect other people's right to an opinion. You are acting as the self appointed evangelist for this amp and I think your opinions are better suited for the other thread. You are the exact person I had in mine when I named this one.
We all have different tastes and opinions and that's a good thing. Some guys like blondes (that would be me) and some like a ginger minch (that would me me as well), some like Wild Grape Kool Aid and some like Blue Raspberry. Just because a guy likes a different flavor of Kool Aid than you, it doesn't mean he made it with dirty water. He might just like he way it tastes.
As for me, I've never been a fan of Kool Aid, but I would defend your right to chug it by the gallon. I'd just prefer if you did it in the Kool Aid thread with your buddy Rclark. That's all.
Drinky, drinky!
J
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A somewhat surprise on the Theta website, Theta has taken off their earlier announcement of the new Hypex based Prometheus amps.
I wonder what that is all about. :scratch:
I think Mola Mola has something to do with it.
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BUT, his anwser refers to the previous question where he basiclly says he does not class descriminate.
I read something completely different, he is saying to limit one purely to Class D is too limiting and the results will be as well. YMMV
Jim
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We all have different tastes and opinions and that's a good thing. Some guys like blondes (that would be me)
J
And I like Brunettes. :thumb:
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And I like Brunettes. :thumb:
I like 'em ALL! The color of their hair is the least of my concern. :green:
I like a HUGE heart. :peek:
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Okay, finally something we can agree on! I am with you guys...love the blonde girls, brunettes, red heads, whatever. One rule, no fatties!
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Okay, finally something we can agree on! I am with you guys...love the blonde girls, brunettes, red heads, whatever. One rule, no fatties!
Post of the night! :thumb:
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I read something completely different, he is saying to limit one purely to Class D is too limiting and the results will be as well. YMMV
Jim
He says class d quality depend on implementation- that it can be fantastic or otherwise. In light of his use of class d, it would seem that when he says one shouldn't limit oneself to any certain class, he could just as easily mean it literally and inclusively. It all depends on how well it is implemented (implying there are good and bad regardless of class).
Again, he sells class d amps. He is developing a new product, by accounts, with Hypex. He can sell anything he wants. I ask you, logically, would he be panning the very thing he is trying to sell? Does that make any sense?
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He says class d quality depend on implementation- that it can be fantastic or otherwise. In light of his use of class d, it would seem that when he says one shouldn't limit oneself to any certain class, he could just as easily mean it literally and inclusively. It all depends on how well it is implemented (implying there are good and bad regardless of class).
Again, he sells class d amps. He is developing a new product, by accounts, with Hypex. He can sell anything he wants. I ask you, logically, would he be panning the very thing he is trying to sell? Does that make any sense?
Sorry cab, we have change our wave of thoughts to skinny goils.
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Ah, ok, shift change....
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The turbulent Kool Aid thread is suddenly at peace.
Also, not too skinny. I like a girl with curves. As my chef friend, Dieter, once said in a late night Windsor strip club, as he walked away with the chunkiest dancer, "bones are for dogs." His view on these matters was a bit extreme. Dieter wasn't a chubby-chaser, he was a chubby-catcher.
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Gee, the last time I spoke with Jeff R, he told me he liked chubby red heads! Me on the other hand, have yellow fever 8)
Jim
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I stand corrected on TAS issue. I must have missed that one. I do remember a similar round table before. However I do stand by the rest of my post.
Actually, I will take one of each. No I am not a Mormon, but I would still like one of each.
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Is this the "Humour and Joke" circle ? :scratch:
You guys are funny.....the stuff you come up with... :lol:
Forget the Kool-Aid....try beer.... :wink:
..............carry on.... :beer:
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Here's Jeff Rowland's last two sentences when asked about Class D (May/June 2012 TAS pg 71):
"...Strict adherence to a class designation for an audio designer is like asking a painter to reduce the number of colors on his palette. The end result may be less vivid than you had hoped for."
Jeff's words, not mine...
Jim
Sorry, you put words in his mouth. Read it in context, and he is referring to the fact that as a designer he doesn't want to limit himself to only one technology, in order to get the best results.
That isn't a put down of Class D. He's just saying he doesn't restrict himself to Class D.
If you read through the designer interviews, the opinions on Class D varied. A few were all in favor, some said it still had inherent limitations that future technology might overcome, some said it by definition couldn't compete with true conventional high-end designs, and others said it was competitive already.
I agree with the comments that the designers may not be the best people to ask this question to, as many have already made decisions about what kind technology is best, and are not going to change their minds after 30-40 years of designing amps.
Per the arguments in this thread on the sound of the NCore: one man's flat and lifeless is another man's good quality reproduction. We will never all agree on matters of taste.
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With regards to the question of whether they like Ncore, I see 4 categories of people.
1) Those who heard it and like it.
2) Those who heard it and do not.
3) Those who haven't heard it but are nevertheless wildly enthusiastic.
4) Those who haven't heard it and are certain they won't like it.
Call me old-fashioned, but I think the former two are fully entitled to their judgment, while the latter two are just plain silly.
Instead of bickering, types 1 and 2 should try to work out why their opinions differ, for instance by comparing notes on other pieces of kit. "Hmm, I also like dac X more than dac Y and for you it's the reverse... there might be a pattern here..." That is precisely why you are on an audio forum, boys. Not to make your opinions heard, but to exchange them.
And of course type 3 is not that silly after all since the assumption that good measured performance translates into unadulterated sound is quite reasonable, at least to those who haven't sunk down to their eardrums into the mire that is contemporary postmodern audiophilia where anything goes.
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One more category:
5) Those that haven't heard it and are afraid it might be as good as many have claimed.
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One more category:
5) Those that haven't heard it and are afraid it might be as good as many have claimed.
There's your chance cab. Since you are so adament about everyone liking the Ncores, help Jason out and send your amps on tour. Jason can't do everything.
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I could care less if everyone likes them.
You still panhandling for a listen? Ante up.
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Your'e missing another category:
6) Those who haven't heard it, but aren't willing to buy into all of the excitement, because they've been doing this long enough to have seen the same thing over and over again. First when SS first arrived, followed by CD, followed by - well you get the picture. Give it time and let's see how things hold up.
Oh, and regarding designer comments: Most designers would like to sell products in Europe. Given the push for "green technologies" over there, is it any wonder that they talk positively about class D?
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I could care less if everyone likes them.
You still panhandling for a listen? Ante up.
Sorry cab, I am already on the tour list.
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Being green is just another positive attribute. It might spark interest, but the sound quality is what ultimately makes the sale. Class d has been on the market for a long time but it has not replaced everything despite being green. The technology is now maturing to the point where the sound quality is competitive with everything else. Those that actually audition the state of the art can judge for themselves whether or not it is for them.
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Sorry cab, I am already on the tour list.
No need to apologize. Enjoy the kool-aid....
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Another category:
7) Those who have heard it and like it but don't want to own the same amp as Cab.
Cab, I hope you are drinking sugar free Kool-Aid because you have consumed so much, I'm concerned you might go into a sugar induced coma. On second thought, who am I to slow you down. Keep drinking...chug it, like you have been all along. :thumb:
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Since there have only been a few comments similar to these about the top end, versus dozens of others that have not found such fault, I can't help but wonder if the problem isn't further up the chain.....
And now you say that you do not care about what people thinks of the sound? :scratch:
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And now you say that you do not care about what people thinks of the sound? :scratch:
No, I said I didn't care if people like them or not.
Attributing a sound quality to them that may in fact be from an upstream component makes for an erroneous judgment. That is intellectually dishonest. If people don't like them for what they are, as I have said too many times to count, there is no arguing taste.
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And now you say that you do not care about what people thinks of the sound? :scratch:
Come on, Tom! Do you really believe this guy who comments on every thread in which the Ncore is mentioned and badgers anyone who has less than glowingly positive comments doesn't care what people think? He is so insecure, it appears he cares more about what people think and say than he does the actual performance of the amp. He has to own the amp that everyone likes. The one found in mega$$$ systems of smart and successful people. That makes him smart and successful by associaton. Right? :scratch:
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Hey guys c'mon now this is getting kinda juvenile don't you think :roll:
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Hey guys c'mon now this is getting kinda juvenile don't you think :roll:
Getting?
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Getting?
Well yeah things could always get worse :green:
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Well yeah things could always get worse :green:
I tried to change gears yesterday to lighten the mood, but Mr. Cab keeps dragging the discussion into the dirt.
Let's stop the bickering because I'm sure there are a lot of people who would love to see this thread binned so they can get back to happy-talk and the consumption of a cool, sweet, fruity beverage...or should I say Kool?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=65982)
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I have not heard the Hypex thus these comments are on class d in general. I do have the Classd audio Spiral Groove amplifier. I am comparing it to a pair of Antique Sound Lab Monsoons with teflon cap modifications. I find the Spiral Groove to be at least the equal of the tube amps. The amp is not perfect but has many of the qualities I value in reproduction. I think class d has arrived, but results are highly dependent (as in A and AB) with the implementation. Regards
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Your'e missing another category:
6) Those who haven't heard it, but aren't willing to buy into all of the excitement, because they've been doing this long enough to have seen the same thing over and over again. First when SS first arrived, followed by CD, followed by - well you get the picture. Give it time and let's see how things hold up.
Oh, and regarding designer comments: Most designers would like to sell products in Europe. Given the push for "green technologies" over there, is it any wonder that they talk positively about class D?
Well stated. Very adroit points made. :thumb:
Look at how long it took solid state to “come of age” as it were. Most folks point to the release of the Threshold 400A as the first solid state amp that did not offend the masses.
Personally, I remain a “Class A” supporter. The XA series from Nelson Pass are as good as it gets (IMHO). They simply do less signal manipulation than any other amp class (They also are the least efficient, for the same reason). There are a lot wonderful sounding tube amps as well.
Perhaps Class D has caught up with the Ncore (I do not know). I’m about to try a low powered class D amp to see how it measures up. I have owned a number of class D amps along the way (including Rowland), and have not heard one yet that did not suffer from one or more shortfalls. Truth be told, ALL gear has some shortfalls from live music, but the class D amps I’ve heard to date had too many shortfalls. Given Bruno’s extensive technical prowess, those may indeed have been successfully addressed to the point that they are not audible. Given how class D works, it’s not easy to achieve, and arguably more difficult that getting class A to sound right.
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It was noted that amp designers must be taken with a grain of salt as they tend to justify their designs and involvement. I concur and this is why I opined as I did regarding what Jeff Rowland was quoted as have said. The mere fact that he doesn't want to be class conscientious, or constrained is telling to me.
It pleases me to no end that there are do many who really enjoy their NCores as that is all that should matter. There isn't much I can add to what Jackman has penned as he acutely hit the nail smack dab on the head.
Jim
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One more category:
5) Those that haven't heard it and are afraid it might be as good as many have claimed.
I have heard it and can say that their fear is unfounded.
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What amazes me is that some of you are comparing the DIY Ncore 400 to OEM amps and expecting them to be as good or better then anything out there. Why not compare apples to apples. Compare several, or Bruno's, of the forthcoming OEM Ncore 1200 amps to those OEM amps and see how they compare. In till then you are comparing apples to oranges.
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With all due respect, calling the Ncore a DIY is a bit of a joke, don’t you think. It’s certainly not like the old Dynaco or Citation kits of days gone by. It’s basically two complete modules that one supplies a few bits and a case for. :thumb:
At the end of the day, it’s still a Class D amp, and all Class D amps I’ve heard to date have a specific sonic signature that is un-mistakable. Granted, the Ncore appears to be at the pinnacle of that heap, but physics is physics. One still has to overcome its basic operating principals in order to make it sound good, and no matter how well it measures, it will sound different than other types of amps, period. Whether one prefers its sonic signature to (for example) a class A solid state or tube amp is a matter of personal taste. ;)
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With all due respect, calling the Ncore a DIY is a bit of a joke, don’t you think. It’s certainly not like the old Dynaco or Citation kits of days gone by. It’s basically two complete modules that one supplies a few bits and a case for. :thumb:
At the end of the day, it’s still a Class D amp, and all Class D amps I’ve heard to date have a specific sonic signature that is un-mistakable. Granted, the Ncore appears to be at the pinnacle of that heap, but physics is physics. One still has to overcome its basic operating principals in order to make it sound good, and no matter how well it measures, it will sound different than other types of amps, period. Whether one prefers its sonic signature to (for example) a class A solid state or tube amp is a matter of personal taste. ;)
Well said. While I haven't heard the NCore's, I have Bel Canto's offering as well as MBL's new C line. Both sounded really nice and could easily understand why some would become so enamoured with their sound.
I'm a dyed in the wool Bottlehead, but that doesn't mean that I have stopped looking/listening for something that surpasses what already have and hopefully will not be too biased to know when I do hear something that is better.
Jim
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At the end of the day, it’s still a Class D amp, and all Class D amps I’ve heard to date have a specific sonic signature that is un-mistakable.
Maybe that has been your experience. There are many who would disagree.
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Freo-1:
It sounds like you have not heard any nCore amps. If this is correct you have no opinion on how they sound, and anything you say regarding them is mere speculation.
To suggest that all class D amplifiers sound alike is ignorant, and analogous to saying all class A amps sound alike. I have heard plenty of slow, soft, lacking in detail class A amps (Pass Aleph series for instance). And I have heard spectacular sounding class A amps (Vitus for instance).
I have also heard many class D varieties: HCA-2, ICEPower ASP and ASPX series, uCD, NCore, etc. And they all sound quite different from one another. Commercial amps using these modules also can sound quite different, as commercial builders often add their own input stage, which can make a huge difference to the sound.
Equating the sound of the nCore 400 DIY amps, to that which comes from the commercial implementations of the nC1200 is also going to be a mistake, as the nC1200 allows for the builder to implement their own voltage gain stage.
cab: no, the "problems" I heard in the nC400 were not from the rest of the system, as the missing parts were not missing in the same system with a different amplifier. That said, if you read my post, I was very impressed by the nCore, despite the sonic shortcoming I heard. And I also acknowledged that the amps had only had about three days of use, I believe the sound could get better with extended break in, and have not, by any means, come to a final conclusion as to what I think about the sound.
I prefer to respect others' points of view, and am interested in hearing of actual listening impressions, especially in comparison to known, well regarded amplifiers; I hope people here will continue to post their impressions of actual experiences, rather than resort to name calling and speculation.
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What amazes me is that some of you are comparing the DIY Ncore 400 to OEM amps and expecting them to be as good or better then anything out there. Why not compare apples to apples. Compare several, or Bruno's, of the forthcoming OEM Ncore 1200 amps to those OEM amps and see how they compare. In till then you are comparing apples to oranges.
What is even more amazing is that some are comparing without having heard them. All these generalizations about the limits of class d, designer this and that, I didn't like a class d amp I heard once, are all meaningless. Read what Rowland said about implementation. Any class can sound good or bad, pushing everything in the same slot is meaningless. It all depends on the implementation, then the interaction with the system, room, and finally, personal preference. Surely there are good and bad amps in every class. The ncore appears to be, by nearly all accounts, as well as its measured performance, a top class amp. Is it the best in the world? That is a matter of opinion. Is it for everyone? No. Do you have to like it? No. Do you need to hear it to have a basis for opinion? Yes.
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; I hope people here will continue to post their impressions of actual experiences, rather than resort to name calling and speculation.
Wouldn't that be nice?
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The name calling started with RClark, who has never heard the NCore's. I loved how he was telling everyone who nay sayed them, that they were bitter because the Ncores were devaluating their old dinasaur amps and other rubbish.
I have great respect for Nelson Pass, Lew Johnson and a few others who have indicated that they felt that Class D hadn't surpassed Linear and will take them at face value. Especially Nelson who has tried to design a viable Class D amp.
Jim
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RClark is harmless. No reason for mature people to get bent out of shape and act like little children, no matter what he claims. "Slapping him down" only serves to lower the general level of this forum to the sandbox. There is no need to let him bring out the worst in those that disagree with him.
At least a dozen people have compared Pass amps to the ncore and preferred the ncore on various forums. Have you heard the ncore or are you just speculating?
Pass is not a class d designer. Class d is a totally different animal. While there are class d designers who have done class a, it doesn't work the other way. Would it make any sense for him, at this point, to change horses when he is so successful at what he does already? No. Would it make any sense for him to say anything positive about class d? Unbiased sources are usually preferable when trying to form opinions that can be defended.
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I have heard it and can say that their fear is unfounded.
Tyson, don't egg-on the troll. Cab and his buddy Rclark don't care about logic. The Ncore has given them more than a great amp, it has given them a reason for being. Cab is pretty much 100% Ncore, 24/7 on this site. Look at his posts. He spends almost all of his time picking fights about the Ncore.
Where else do you see this type of behavior?
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Tyson, don't egg-on the troll. Cab and his buddy Rclark don't care about logic. The Ncore has given them more than a great amp, it has given them a reason for being. Cab is pretty much 100% Ncore, 24/7 on this site. Look at his posts. He spends almost all of his time picking fights about the Ncore.
Where else do you see this type of behavior?
And you spend all day practicing your pathetic failed comedy routines in response.
Do you have anything of substance to say, or are you simply programmed to spew insults?
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Hey Cab,
Just trying to point out the obvious. If the stuff you add to this site qualifies as "substance", I'll gladly abstain. You and your little buddy Rclark provide enough substance for all of us. Your insightful, objective commentary has made this a better place. Keep it coming.
Cheers
Jack
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Careful, your attention starved upbringing is beginning to show.
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The nCore's are the best class D amps I've heard. No glare in the upper regions, or painful HF emphasis. That said, they are not the best amps ever. Even my 30 watt tube amp sounded better than they did. But then I'm not surprised, that's often the case - the latest and greatest comes out, wows people with it's particular strengths, people buy it, and then the weaknesses become apparent, then the weaknesses become annoying, then the amps go up for sale just in time for the next round of next best things. I've seen it happen with amps, DAC's, speakers, cable, you name it. I do think the nCore's are better than most flavors of the month, but based on my audition, they definitely have some weaknesses that will become more magnified over time.
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Careful, your attention starved upbringing is beginning to show.
You got me! Sorry if I pulled you away from attacking some poor sap who may have said less than positive things about your beloved Ncore Have you scared evyone off or are people just enjoying the nice weather?
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I do think the nCore's are better than most flavors of the month, but based on my audition, they definitely have some weaknesses that will become more magnified over time.
No one has said they are perfect, all amps have strengths and weaknesses.
How will these weaknesses become more magnified over time?
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Oh, I'm just referring to the general phenomena of people being wowed by a piece of equipment's strengths right away, but only come to recognize their weaknesses slowly, over time. And eventually those weaknesses going from mildly irritating to downright aggravating.
And not just in audio.... I have a lot of ex-girlfriends that followed the exact same pattern :o
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Oh, I'm just referring to the general phenomena of people being wowed by a piece of equipment's strengths right away, but only come to recognize their weaknesses slowly, over time. And eventually those weaknesses going from mildly irritating to downright aggravating.
Time will tell....
And not just in audio.... I have a lot of ex-girlfriends that followed the exact same pattern :o
No doubt one will come along that appreciates you despite your weaknesses.... :lol:
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Tyson, was it your preference for colored sound or your inferior system that caused you to prefer an obviously inferior amp? Perhaps it was a deeply rooted inferiority complex that made you feel you did not deserve the pristine reproduction only the Ncore can deliver?
Either way, I hope you resolve these issues soon enough to live life to the fullest with an Ncore amp and a big glass of Kool Aid. Before its too late
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:o I said earlier on that things on this thread could get worse! Looks like I was right.
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Time will tell....
No doubt one will come along that appreciates you despite your weaknesses.... :lol:
Well, been married 17 years and we're very happy, so someone did :)
Dating a lot is a great way to figure out very quickly what you don't want, in addition to figuring out what you do want in another person.
Same with amps, listening and/or owning a lot of them will give you better context for evaluating strengths and weaknesses. In the case of the nCore, it had strengths that I didn't really care about (bass control, smoothness, macrodynamics, detail), and weaknesses that I do care about (mediocre tonal balance, average musicality and emotional engagement). Since I've come across this pattern of strengths and weaknesses before, it was easy to identify that it did things well that I don't care about, and did not do things well that I do care about. So for me it's an easy pass.
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Alright guys, one last time.
STOP the flaming posts. Read the guidelines. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=37305.0
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In the case of the nCore, it had strengths that I didn't really care about (bass control, smoothness, macrodynamics, detail), and weaknesses that I do care about (mediocre tonal balance, average musicality and emotional engagement).
I haven't noted those weaknesses in my system. Thanks for sharing your impressions.
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Alright guys, one last time.
STOP the flaming posts. Read the guidelines. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=37305.0
How do you do that when the 'points of view' you are trying to bypass from the discussion (hence the thread) nevertheless make themselves an active part of it, knowing full well they are only getting in the way of the thread's purpose. They're encouraged to do so clearly. It's top-down. So just kill the thread and be done with it.
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How do you do that when the 'points of view' you are trying to bypass from the discussion (hence the thread) nevertheless make themselves an active part of it, knowing full well they are only getting in the way of the thread's purpose. They're encouraged to do so clearly. It's top-down. So just kill the thread and be done with it.
No it's the constant bickering and this doesn't help.
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I haven't noted those weaknesses in my system. Thanks for sharing your impressions.
Right, that's sort of my whole point - they don't become obvious right away.
You stated before that all amps have their strengths and weaknesses. Could you elucidate what you feel the strengths and weaknesses of the nCore are?
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Jason, the only way to end the constant bickering is to either bin the thread or give some a vacation.
Jim
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No it's the constant bickering and this doesn't help.
But we all know the simplest answer to the bickering in this thread. It's all down to one person. One voice. If not for that the thread would have trailed off peacefully a long time ago. And it's going to keep happening over and over again.
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Right, that's sort of my whole point - they don't become obvious right away.
You stated before that all amps have their strengths and weaknesses. Could you elucidate what you feel the strengths and weaknesses of the nCore are?
How long you figure it takes to become obvious? I've spent hundreds of hours with the ncore....
Strengths are detail, flat frequency response, lack of coloration, bass control, dynamics
Weaknesses: any weaknesses upstream are unmasked making it hard to add the ncore without making more changes; maybe too accurate- bad recordings sound bad; if you aren't use to an extremely neutral presentation, it can sound a tad dry.
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Well, maybe you should be spending more time enjoying them and less time posting here. You are happy with your amps. The vast majority of reviewers are on your side. A very few people don't agree. Why can't you let us dissenters alone? Does EVERYONE have to agree with you? I've heard the nCore, and nothing you say will ever change my mind about what I've heard. Just give it a rest already....
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I made one comment initially in which I simply said that perhaps the issues heard were from upstream, noting that several listeners have found this to be the case. From that, nothing but childish insults and immature name calling. Dissent all you wish, like I also said, I could care less who does or doesn't like the ncore. I have challenged comments by trash talking speculators that haven't a clue about the technology, much less even heard the amp under discussion, and I have asked you to clarify your issues in a respectful manner. If you put your views out there, they are subject to question and challenge. If you or anyone else can't handle that, then don't post them.
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Everyone here is a fanboy!!! Just deal with it.
Cab and Rclark love NCore
Tyson is 100% bias against SS
Fero loves class A
Sts9fans is pretty much a Pass fanboy, anti tubes and pro class A.
How do you deal with it? Just tune them out. Would I ever put any weight behind a Tyson amp review? Never.
Would I ever listen to RClark without doing my own research? Hells no.
Am I going to try Ncore? Maybe.
Where's the Koolaid?
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Guys, the only way to keep this thread alive is to ignore Cab. This guy wants te thread binned and I'd rather not give him the satisfaction. Let's keep this thread open for some lighthearted discussion and fun.
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In the case of the nCore, it had strengths that I didn't really care about (bass control, smoothness, macrodynamics, detail), and weaknesses that I do care about (mediocre tonal balance, average musicality and emotional engagement). Since I've come across this pattern of strengths and weaknesses before, it was easy to identify that it did things well that I don't care about, and did not do things well that I do care about. So for me it's an easy pass.
Strengths are detail, flat frequency response, lack of coloration, bass control, dynamics
Weaknesses: any weaknesses upstream are unmasked making it hard to add the ncore without making more changes; maybe too accurate- bad recordings sound bad; if you aren't use to an extremely neutral presentation, it can sound a tad dry.
I really don't understand the argument. I see these two statements as complimentary rather opposing viewpoints. Taken together they exactly describe my impression of the Ncore amps. I can easily see how the Ncore's might become tiresome for me with a clinical front end, but how that setup would be the cat's meow for detail and control freaks (that word used in a good way). And I can imagine, from the two opinions above, how a carefully chosen front end would make the Ncore's very enjoyable to me, but might never satisfy a tube freak's needs. So the two viewpoints exactly describe what I heard and what I might imagine the sound to be in different setups. Gee thanks guys, you gave me a great perspective. You can go back to fighting if you want to, but I don't see the point.
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I like the thread, as long as we can stay on topic. As mentioned, the fault I found (in my brief time with the amps) was a lack of fully developed high frequency content. Especially obvious in the decay of cymbals, bells, and chimes. The strike is very, very clear, and the shimmer is present, but the ringing decay seems to be truncated, along with the tone which goes along with it. This missing quality cannot be caused by a lack of distortion, as the sounds I am listening for are present in real cymbal, bell, or chime. I hear them in my system with the Pass, so clearly the source is resolving them, but with the nCore they went missing.
So what I am (not) hearing from the nCore is not due to its tonality (or lack thereof, neutrality, perhaps) it is missing sonic information. I do find the nCore to be quite lean, but that may just be neutrality-in any case slight tonal shifts can be adjusted for in the system.
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Everyone here is a fanboy!!! Just deal with it.
Cab and Rclark love NCore
Tyson is 100% bias against SS
Fero loves class A
Sts9fans is pretty much a Pass fanboy, anti tubes and pro class A.
How do you deal with it? Just tune them out. Would I ever put any weight behind a Tyson amp review? Never.
Would I ever listen to RClark without doing my own research? Hells no.
Am I going to try Ncore? Maybe.
Where's the Koolaid?
I resent that!!! I'm only like 85% biased against SS amps :P
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I agree Jackman, I can only post so many reasonable replies to cab's assertions, based on my actual experience with the nCore's. In the past I would have taken the opportunity to really sink to his level and go at it, but I must be mellowing out in my old age. Ignore it is, from now on.
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I agree Jackman, I can only post so many reasonable replies to cab's assertions, based on my actual experience with the nCore's. In the past I would have taken the opportunity to really sink to his level and go at it, but I must be mellowing out in my old age. Ignore it is, from now on.
+1
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This is a semi-philosophical what if question based on the reaction I have observed to the introduction of the Ncore 400 to the audiophile DIY community.
How would the audiophile community react to the introduction of the perfect amplifier? One readily available to the average audiophile for a modest price and a fews hours of work over a weekend. Would the reaction be any different from what we have seen so far to the introduction of the Ncore 400. Would we even be able to recognize a PERFECT amplifier if we could hear it within the context our own systems.
I like to think I would know good if I heard it, but I am probably deceiving myself. Nothing else in my system is perfect, all of its components are made from real world materials by fallible human beings.
With that many variables in play there is probably no way to ever know if any particular component is perfect.
It's fairly obvious to me that even the advent of a pretty good amplifier Ncore, will be met in a way that is similar to the reception of the hypothetical PERFECT amplifier. So far a fair number of people like how it performs within the context their systems and some people define their experience of listening to the amplifier in terms of what it doesn't do or the sins of omission it appears to commit.
Remember I am just people watching here, I am on the outside looking in, in as much as I have not heard the Ncore yet and don't have any valid opinion of it based on how its sounds to me.
Does anyone here think the reaction to a PERFECT amplifier would be any different from what we have seen so far with the Ncore?
Scotty
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Scotty,we need the perfect source first, and that is far away from what we are getting.
I use to go to the CES show into the Revox room. Every few minutes they would do a demo to the audio dealers that entered the room. They had a wall placement of their rack system and Revox speakers. As their source, they had a record, CD, and the master tape of the same recording on their 3/4" Studer-Revox machine.
First, they would play the record, next the CD.The sound of the system was very mid-fi with very little imaging and depth. As soon as they hit the button on the master tape, evey mouth in the room fell open. The improvement was totally night and day. The Revox rack system came to life and wowed everyone.
Just to make sure that this was not a joke, every year I would watch at least 3-4 demos. It is real sad on how much the software is lacking compared to the master tape.
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I have another philosophical question instead. If all recordings are colored, should our systems perfectly reproduce these colored recordings? Or, in order to be 'perfect', should our systems be able to compensate for these colorations somehow?
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Or, in order to be 'perfect', should our systems be able to compensate for these colorations somehow?
That's what liquor is for. :lol: JK of course, but I find this whole thread amusing. It's all a big fake, can't believe how much some folks get riled up over it. Pick the trade offs that make you happy and enjoy. Says he who is listening to his imperfect vinyl though an imperfect preamp, amp and speakers. :)
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"It's all a big fake" - I love it! Can I quote you in my sig :)
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In my opinion, no. For the purposes of my question I would define a perfect amplifier as a straight wire with gain. No flavoring and no compensation, as both would be a deviation away from the initial condition of the incoming signal.
Scotty
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I agree with Mike, that is what I use single malt for.
Lots of flavor and a nice color to boot.
Scotty
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Single Malt drinking fanboys... ;)
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Mike, thanks for providing the quote of the thread! :thumb:
It's all a big fake people!!! Where's my bourbon?
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Scotty,we need the perfect source first, and that is far away from what we are getting.
I use to go to the CES show into the Revox room. Every few minutes they would do a demo to the audio dealers that entered the room. They had a wall placement of their rack system and Revox speakers. As their source, they had a record, CD, and the master tape of the same recording on their 3/4" Studer-Revox machine.
First, they would play the record, next the CD.The sound of the system was very mid-fi with very little imaging and depth. As soon as they hit the button on the master tape, evey mouth in the room fell open. The improvement was totally night and day. The Revox rack system came to life and wowed everyone.
Just to make sure that this was not a joke, every year I would watch at least 3-4 demos. It is real sad on how much the software is lacking compared to the master tape.
This is the same thing Doc Smalle of Bottlehead does....he plays an otherwise high-end system (his stuff) with a mid-fi CD player and then switches to his over the top Nagra Reel to Reel and jaws drop.
Lucky me, I actually enjoy my CDP....I know I couldn't afford 6 figures for a Nagra Reel to Reel like Doc's! :thumb:
Jim
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Sources aside, does anyone have an opinion regarding the reception a PERFECT amp would get from the audiophile at large? When the amp is in the system will the audiophile understand what they are listening to is perfect, or will they reach some other conclusion, never seeing the forest for the trees so to speak?
Scotty
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Is a passive preamp "perfect"?
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Laws of physics aside, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? And would the average person be able to even count them?
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Sources aside, does anyone have an opinion regarding the reception a PERFECT amp would get from the audiophile at large? When the amp is in the system will the audiophile understand what they are listening to is perfect, or will they reach some other conclusion, never seeing the forest for the trees so to speak?
Scotty
Scotty, everything we do within the confines of audiophilium is a bunch of small compromises and give & takes. Along the way we may be lucky enough to build in some synergy within our systems. This and the forgiving nature of the human ear and brain makes it all worthwhile.
I ended up with a 50 year old tube preamp that sounds as good or better than anything else I've encountered. Same for my choice of amps, reissues of amps made in the early 60's.
My CDP has gone thru a complete redo and with a tube output stage.
Are they perfect? No! Are they capable of reproducing music that comes close to live? Absolutely!!!
No two roads will ever be the same for two audiophiles, nor will there be two exactly the same systems.
This thread should be a lesson of tolerance and acceptance of others opinions, regardless of how different they may be to what I or you, or anyone else believes to be the truth.
Jim
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Laws of physics aside, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? And would the average person be able to even count them?
Silly boy. Every good Baptist knows angels don't dance!
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They are too busy smiting! Man, there just isn't enough smiting going on after the Old Testament.
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I don't think so.
It is easier to assume that nothing at present is perfect. We have no good way that I can think of to prove otherwise.
Scotty
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I have another philosophical question instead. If all recordings are colored, should our systems perfectly reproduce these colored recordings? Or, in order to be 'perfect', should our systems be able to compensate for these colorations somehow?
"bingo!". imo, tyson nails it. but, of course, this is because this has always been my philosophy regarding what is considered "accurate", when it comes to playback of recorded music. :green:
which is why i disagree w/scotty that the ideal is "straight wire with gain". i would agree w/scotty *if* the recording side were perfect. but that is not the case. therefore, for my ears, anyway, what sounds most like the music itself - not the recording - is what's most accurate. and, that is why there's disagreement as to what playback system may get you "closer" - folks hear differently, and recordings themselves are different...
ymmv,
doug s.
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Certainly, everything about our systems is a compromise. But that doesn't answer the question how one would know if they encountered a component that was perfect and made no compromises. For that matter how do we recognize a component that is a significant step closer to being perfect.
Scotty
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Scotty, I think it comes down to the fact that some components are at a similar level of performance but are different flavors, and which you like best depends on your tastes. But I also think that a component that is just flat out better is pretty audible. So taking that to the logical extreme - if there is a perfect amp out there, then yeah, it would be pretty obvious that it just dusts everything else. I've never heard anything like that in real life, but I sure would love to.
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doug you have mis-understood the nature of my question. An "ideal" was never part of the question. Ideals are based on a value judgment which exists in the ear of the beholder. My question involves how one goes about recognizing a component which is perfect, perhaps a straight wire with gain. Because we never knowingly encounter perfection how do we recognize a component that is even significantly better than anything we have encountered before.
Scotty
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Tyson, I don't think it would be that simple. With so many variables and deviations from linearity in peoples systems if you put an amplifier in that was a straight wire with gain, it would pass what ever came in on through unaltered, which surely would not be advisable in many cases. Masking and omissions are used all of the time in the course of assembling a system with synergy that delivers what an individual desires to hear. Take out a key piece of flavor,masking or omission and the whole thing may come unraveled.
Scotty
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If a perfect camera came out that took perfect pictures, how would we know it, since no one has ever seen perfect pictures before?
I'm not 100% sure about this, but I think we'd have to look at the pictures and see for ourselves.
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Theoretically we could place the life size 3dimensional picture or hologram beside the subject and we would not be able to distinguish them from one another. Of course part of my problem is that I don't know what the definition of a perfect picture is.
Scotty
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I'm not sure we have the technology to know how close to perfect something is, and after building my own amp and preamp I realize there is nothing even close. Most people here (I think) think cables make a difference, and that's only a piece of wire. When you get into resistors, caps, and gain devices there is even more difference in how you can voice your system.
Also, while I haven't heard the NCores, I have yet to hear a class D amp I could live with. I agree they have shortcomings that get more and more annoying over time. They are also very sensitive to component and cabling changes, which is a double edged sword. I will also stick to tubes... :green:
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IT'S ALL A BIG FAKE!
Props to Mike for hitting that one out of the park!!!
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doug you have mis-understood the nature of my question. An "ideal" was never part of the question. Ideals are based on a value judgment which exists in the ear of the beholder. My question involves how one goes about recognizing a component which is perfect, perhaps a straight wire with gain. Because we never knowingly encounter perfection how do we recognize a component that is even significantly better than anything we have encountered before.
Scotty
no, i have not misunderstood your question. imo, if a component is "perfect", it will, of necessity, not be a straight wire with gain. it will, of necessity, somehow change the recording, in some way, to make it sound more real. :wink: which is why it is difficult, if not impossible for anyone to recognize this mythical beast - it will differ, depending on the person recognizing it, and depending on the recording... i.e.: it will be what we now have, which is why there is no uniwersal agreement on which pieces of equipment are "best"...
doug s.
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IT'S ALL A BIG FAKE!
Props to Mike for hitting that one out of the park!!!
agreed. it has to be fake, if one is fooled into believing recorded music is the real thing! :lol:
doug s.
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My question my definition. My question has nothing to do with best. You change the definition and we have you asking and answering your own question. A different conversation. You basically have said that you don't want to hear the original signal that exists on the recording without imposing your idea/ideals upon it. This is your personal definition of perfection. And your ipso facto definition of more "real" implies that all recordings depart from real in the same way and require the same editorial pen strokes. Given the vast difference that exist between one recording and another I don't think a universal fix applied across board to all recordings will always be appropriate. We will have to agree to disagree on this point.
Scotty
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You are right on Scotty, recordings do deviate from reality, and in a myriad of different ways. That's why you should go active - you can adjust the sound to compensate yourself. In fact, I have different presets I can cycle through - some have more bass, some have midrange emphasis, some have highs increased, some have lower mids bumped, etc... It's actually really useful.
I know that this takes me out of the realm of perfect fidelity to the recording, but the fact is that recordings are not perfect, so why should I try to perfectly reproduce imperfection?
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i specifically stated that recordings are all different. which is why i believe it is impossible for there to be a one size fits all "perfect" component. and, which leads me to agree w/tyson.
yes, i changed the definition of "perfect" - for me, "perfect" takes me closer to the live event, not the recording. and yes, it is a moving target. which is why, even if you do have a component that is "perfect" to the recording, you likely won't even know it.
ymmv,
doug s.
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Doug, how dare you use live music as your reference, rather than a master tape as your reference! Who are YOU to judge whether your system sounds close to live music? Dammit man, just meekly accept that the recordings are TRUTH and your system is properly an alter to worship this TRUTH.
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Tyson, I have applied rather simple equalization in the digital domain to some recordings and I have had better results to my ears when I have done this to recordings with less complex production values. Recordings that were mixed for AM air-play for example, seem to respond well to a kind of tone control approach in which the bass is boosted until the recording sounds balanced. Pop recordings on the other hand, with very complex mixes and a goofball frequency balance just give me the desire to completely remix them which I can't do so I just listen to them unaltered.
To me these recordings sound plenty real, only mixed and equalized for play back through a car radio or something. I am fairly certain that if I could have been in the studio listening to them with the sound of their instruments blending together as a result of being played in the same acoustic space and not multi-miced and pan-potted into an artificial image and frequency balance, that I would like the sound better than the recording engineers effort. I frequently like live concert recordings better than studio efforts because they sound a little less artificial.
Scotty
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The questionable: high frequencies just do not seem to be totally fleshed out: that is, things likes bells, cymbals, and chimes seem to have a bit truncated decays, missing the full harmonic envelope.
My impression is that something is actually missing from the output of the nCore, something which is present at the input, and is not the result of distortion in other amplifiers. Does anyone else notice this quality?
My experience parallels yours, Barrows. Among the excellent things the Ncores do, at their worst they sound flat, dull and sucked-out in certain important ways they reproduce mid and high frequencies. I suspect feedback is partly the source for these qualities.
I completely agree with these impressions of the Ncore and add my voice to the choir. I felt the last little ounce of music wasn't enunciated and therefore left a rather flat overall presentation.
I think Barrows hit the nail on the head, "the decay has been cut off". It isnt a result of more break-in as the Tour amps i heard were fully broke-in. I kept thinking it was just problematic in the tour build but seems to go beyond that.
The strengths were numerous but i dont understand why this obvious weakness isnt stated across the board. :scratch:
Has this been overcome in some builds??
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Hilarious thread title. Bravo. I too have been a glassy-eyed fan boy. Primed and programmed by my manufacturer handler....
Truncated highs has been the experience with every class D offering I have had in my system (have not heard the Cores yet). It does seem that most philes who own them longterm rely on tube pre-amps to embellish the blighted and cardboardish sonic landscape.
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In order to realize a perfect amp, you must also have the perfect speaker. We are far, far away from the perfect speaker.
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Single Malt drinking fanboys... ;)
+1 8)
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Is a passive preamp "perfect"?
No, and Paul McGowan tells us why in today's daily newsletter.
http://www.pstracks.com/pauls-posts/volume-controls/7678/
Over 25 years ago I found that my analog preamp was distorting my CD player. Many cries against CD over the years has been from using these analog preamps with CD. I went passive way back then since passive sounded better.
But one day when I went straight in, bypassing the passive preamp, a major improvement was also made, a much larger soundstage with way more holographic imaging. Ever since then, I have wanted an amp with a built-in CD player with remote digital volume control.
IMO, maybe someone can build the ultimate remote controlled digital amp with the ultimate Dac inside it. Now this would be the ultimate component for me. I have been waiting for this for over 25 years.
Bruno, are you listening?
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Ozark the link has a virus! Just stopped by Avast
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Hilarious thread title. Bravo. I too have been a glassy-eyed fan boy. Primed and programmed by my manufacturer handler....
Truncated highs has been the experience with every class D offering I have had in my system (have not heard the Cores yet). It does seem that most philes who own them longterm rely on tube pre-amps to embellish the blighted and cardboardish sonic landscape.
for long term enjoyment of reproduced music playback in my home, i rely on a tube preamp regardless of what amp i am using... :wink:
doug s.
ps - no way i would ever consider cd playback w/o a tube preamp in the signal path, regardless of what paul mcgowan says.
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for long term enjoyment of reproduced music playback in my home, i rely on a tube preamp regardless of what amp i am using... :wink:
doug s.
ps - no way i would ever consider cd playback w/o a tube preamp in the signal path, regardless of what paul mcgowan says.
And for me, a tube buffer or a tubes in the post DAC stage.
Jim
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And for me, a DAC integrated into my preamp/crossover/EQ feeding dedicated tube amps - one for the highs, one for the mids, and a monster bass amp on the bass. Tubes rule, but so does a super short audio chain.
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One must first realize, that perfection itself does not exist, to then understand, that it can never be reproduced...
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One must first realize, that perfection itself does not exist, to then understand, that it can never be reproduced...
Wow, pretty astute :?
Jim
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A few years back, I was listening to a Live Cream LP. It didn't sound so good, as a matter of fact, it sounded like kaka. So I began struggling with my system's synergy. I went on a rampage. I changed my cartridge, changed out the tonearm, bought a new turntable, went back and forth between tube and SS amps. I tried both active and passive preamps, experimented with every possible combination of metals in my interconnects and speaker wires. I shortened the signal path of every wire. Hardwired for sure. Acoustic treatments, power conditioning and speaker placement were to no avail, as I changed between ported, 3-way, 2-way, boxed, open baffled and full-range drivers. The Cream just didn't sound "live" in my listening room, and I got really crapped out. I thought the only way I'd be happy hearing these tracks was to actually hear the band live. Live Cream.
So, I came up with a this great idea. I called up Eric Clapton and asked if he'd get the ol' chaps together, fly out to my crib in the sticks, set up in my living room and give me a private concert. 'Course, amicable bloke that he is, Eric arranged for everything mind you, and the following weekend, the first reunion of the Cream was at my house... Live. No shit. This was before the famed Albert Hall Reunion. That's how they got the idea to get back together.
Well, the power trio set up and started playing, but soon into, "Strange brew... look what's inside of you," I stopped the show. It sounded horrible! At first I couldn't figure out why. When I attempted to question the band about it, that's when all hell broke loose.
This began a protracted and extremely heated argument between me, Eric, Ginger and Jack. I didn't like the setting that Eric was using on his Vintage Fender Deluxe Amp. He was incensed when I told him he might want to consider different tubes and that his tone was a little thin. Then me and Jack Bruce got into it about the capacitance of the wiring on the active pickups on his bass, and whether or not his stack of 4 X 12 cabinets was just too much bass for the room. Besides all of that, Ginger Baker was using old heads on the drums and the Zildjan crash cymbal didn't have the right decay. It sounded too "tizzy."
They played a couple of more numbers, until I lost my patience and told them all to get out. Live Cream sounded like crap. 'Matter of fact, it sounded worse than the record, and this stint cost me a whole lot more money than I'd care to admit to paying.
Since then, I've just tossed albums on to the record player, and I'm done with it. NCore, Peace Corps or Live... don't matter, you can't always get what you want. You can try sometime, and you just might find..."
Oh, remind me sometime to tell you my Rolling Stones story. :thumb:
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One must first realize, that perfection itself does not exist, to then understand, that it can never be reproduced...
But it is fun trying, that is what this hobby is all about.
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Ozark the link has a virus! Just stopped by Avast
That is odd, everytime I click on it, it works for me.
Paul says:
Volume controls
Well, this is a fine hornet’s nest I’ve gotten into. Half of you seem to think I live in a cave and haven’t any clue what high-end audio is all about and the other half think I have it right – and then yet another half think I am opening Pandora’s box and letting all the digital nasties out to seek and destroy all of analog. Wait a minute, how many halves are there?
For the record (and not to make a pun) I love analog, have been designing analog circuits for over 40 years, continue to do so and near the end of this series will be advocating a hybrid approach as part of the new paradigm I am advocating that plays nice with both analog and digital. So, deep breath my friends, I am not out to kick your dog or put a damper on your analog dreams and I hope we can simply enjoy these posts in the spirit they are written, fun and informative – forward looking. I really am on your side and the side of great music and audio. Really. :)
One of the core elements of any preamplifier is the volume control – without it you cannot adjust the level of what you’re playing and the system becomes rather useless. Let’s talk analog volume controls today.
There are 50 ways to Sunday to build an analog volume control and I think I may have tried and listened to every single one.
In its simplest classic form most analog preamplifier volume controls are but a simple variable resistor or potentiometer (called a “pot” for short). How do these work? They are simple mechanical devices that have a long strip of resistive material with a connection on each end of the strip. One of these two connections (A) is attached to the audio source and the other side (B) is connected to ground (zero audio).
A third contact (W) is pressed against this strip and connected to a knob or a lever so that the user can move the contact up and down the length of the resistive strip. This contact becomes the output of the volume control. By placing the contact on a different area of the strip you get different volume levels out – louder when you move towards A and softer as you move towards B. Put two strips together with two contacts moving together and you have a dual potentiometer or – a stereo pot. Move either one of the two contacts differently and you adjust the left and right channels differently – thus making a balance control.
(http://www.pstracks.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/resistor.gif)
Remembering that all types of resistors sound different when used in the signal path, it should be no surprise that the quality of the music running through one of these pots is very much dependent on the quality of the resistive element, the contacts and the way it’s implemented. In fact, there is no such thing as a neutral or transparent sounding pot or volume control.
The fact that any form of volume control has a negative effect on the sound is a really important concept to grasp. Switched attenuators, Gain Cells, pots, electronic attenuators, CMOS switches, photo cells and every scheme imaginable to change the volume has a negative affect on the sound. The challenge is to figure out how to do as little damage to the sound as possible and there are many schemes out there – ranging from the absurd to the lame and cheap and everything in between.
The point I want to make in today’s post is that the volume and balance controls in an analog preamp all suck to some degree. We have to accept that we cannot change the volume without affecting the sound.
Lastly I want to give you a piece of advice when it comes to volume controls. Less is more. By that I mean the higher the volume control level the better it sounds because less of the resistor is in the signal path. Look at the drawing I included – if the W connection is tied right to the audio input A (full volume), then essentially there is nothing in the signal path to damage the music. The farther away W gets from A (turning the level down), the more sonic damage is done. Less is more.
I wrote about this nearly a year ago in a post labeled Step on the gas and I think it’s not only worth repeating but it also leads us to tomorrow’s post about digital volume controls.
Interesting how in both cases, less is more when it comes to volume controls.
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Not a cool aid drinker, but like cool aid!
Just responding to the op. I'm not a big fan of ss amps, but I like these so far. They are shape shifters - so beware! Simple plug and play into your system may not reveal the amps capability. They may be better than I originally thought. Chasing ghosts :)
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That is odd, everytime I click on it, it works for me.
Paul says:
Volume controls
Well, this is a fine hornet’s nest I’ve gotten into. Half of you seem to think I live in a cave and haven’t any clue what high-end audio is all about and the other half think I have it right – and then yet another half think I am opening Pandora’s box and letting all the digital nasties out to seek and destroy all of analog. Wait a minute, how many halves are there?
For the record (and not to make a pun) I love analog, have been designing analog circuits for over 40 years, continue to do so and near the end of this series will be advocating a hybrid approach as part of the new paradigm I am advocating that plays nice with both analog and digital. So, deep breath my friends, I am not out to kick your dog or put a damper on your analog dreams and I hope we can simply enjoy these posts in the spirit they are written, fun and informative – forward looking. I really am on your side and the side of great music and audio. Really. :)
One of the core elements of any preamplifier is the volume control – without it you cannot adjust the level of what you’re playing and the system becomes rather useless. Let’s talk analog volume controls today.
There are 50 ways to Sunday to build an analog volume control and I think I may have tried and listened to every single one.
In its simplest classic form most analog preamplifier volume controls are but a simple variable resistor or potentiometer (called a “pot” for short). How do these work? They are simple mechanical devices that have a long strip of resistive material with a connection on each end of the strip. One of these two connections (A) is attached to the audio source and the other side (B) is connected to ground (zero audio).
A third contact (W) is pressed against this strip and connected to a knob or a lever so that the user can move the contact up and down the length of the resistive strip. This contact becomes the output of the volume control. By placing the contact on a different area of the strip you get different volume levels out – louder when you move towards A and softer as you move towards B. Put two strips together with two contacts moving together and you have a dual potentiometer or – a stereo pot. Move either one of the two contacts differently and you adjust the left and right channels differently – thus making a balance control.
(http://www.[link removed because of virus warning. Go t] pstracks dot com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/resistor.gif)
Remembering that all types of resistors sound different when used in the signal path, it should be no surprise that the quality of the music running through one of these pots is very much dependent on the quality of the resistive element, the contacts and the way it’s implemented. In fact, there is no such thing as a neutral or transparent sounding pot or volume control.
The fact that any form of volume control has a negative effect on the sound is a really important concept to grasp. Switched attenuators, Gain Cells, pots, electronic attenuators, CMOS switches, photo cells and every scheme imaginable to change the volume has a negative affect on the sound. The challenge is to figure out how to do as little damage to the sound as possible and there are many schemes out there – ranging from the absurd to the lame and cheap and everything in between.
The point I want to make in today’s post is that the volume and balance controls in an analog preamp all suck to some degree. We have to accept that we cannot change the volume without affecting the sound.
Lastly I want to give you a piece of advice when it comes to volume controls. Less is more. By that I mean the higher the volume control level the better it sounds because less of the resistor is in the signal path. Look at the drawing I included – if the W connection is tied right to the audio input A (full volume), then essentially there is nothing in the signal path to damage the music. The farther away W gets from A (turning the level down), the more sonic damage is done. Less is more.
I wrote about this nearly a year ago in a post labeled Step on the gas and I think it’s not only worth repeating but it also leads us to tomorrow’s post about digital volume controls.
Interesting how in both cases, less is more when it comes to volume controls.
Sounds like a setup for pushing digital volume controls. :P
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Ozark the link has a virus! Just stopped by Avast
Google is showing warnings on coming to this page, which is a bit stupid since it's a link, whatever the problem is WE don't have it. Anyway, it's been modified, for now at least.
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Sounds like a setup for pushing digital volume controls. :P
+1
Jim
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Everyone here is a fanboy!!! Just deal with it.
Cab and Rclark love NCore
Tyson is 100% bias against SS
Fero loves class A
Sts9fans is pretty much a Pass fanboy, anti tubes and pro class A.
How do you deal with it? Just tune them out. Would I ever put any weight behind a Tyson amp review? Never.
Would I ever listen to RClark without doing my own research? Hells no.
Am I going to try Ncore? Maybe.
Where's the Koolaid?
Asile 3, middle shelf. ;)
BTW, I'm partial to Pass designed Class A, thank you. :thumb: ( Some tubed based Class A as well).
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This has turned into a political debate, I'm a Bottlehead...I'm SS....I'm Class D all the way...and the betweeners...
It's pretty obvious that there will never be a winner in this debate as 99% of us have already made up our minds as the years have weened and leaned us to a path of certainty (for ourselves). The only way to learn is through the trial and error process and hope for the best.
My livelihood is in vintage, rare and otherwise used guitars and for me there has been a paradigm shift towards new guitars that replicate guitars from the golden era....Pre-war for Acoustics and the 50's for electrics.
While I still love old guitars, the newer ones are built better, sound better and play easier. I suppose the same will happen with Audio Gear. That said, I really feel that as far as tube amplification goes, they got it right a long, long, time ago and it is at its pinnacle and has been for well over 50 years.
I hope I live long enough to see if something does come along that will blow me away again, but frankly, I haven't been blown away in many a year.
Jim
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Paul sez today on preamps:
Trying to put the genie back in the bottle
So if the days of the analog preamp are numbered because the number of analog sources for it to control are diminishing and if digital preamplifiers really haven’t appeared on the scene in any numbers and have a long way to go before they are accepted as musically satisfying enough, what’s a music lover to do for control?
For many of us nothing: what we have is just fine, thank you. But, if you’re anything like me, it’s unsettling to know that inserting an extra piece of gear in the signal path is giving me less than what’s there. It’s kind of like being comfortable with your daily drive through the backroads of the city to get to work – it’s been your route for many years – and then to discover the city just completed a straight-shot thoroughfare that cuts the drive time in half. The first time you take the shorter path it’s clearly faster, better and makes more sense – but the old drive was prettier, had more charm, wasn’t all that bad and in fact you miss it.
Problem is, every time you’re driving on the old road you are now painfully aware you are taking extra unnecessary steps and those steps are now cutting into your day – and your formerly pleasant drive will simply never be the same. It’ll never be the same because now you have tasted something better.
In our sound room we have a PerfectWave DAC/Bridge setup feeding our power amplifier directly through a long set of XLR cables. All the sources are plugged into the PWD. But we also have one of our analog preamps in the sound room as well. Why is it there? For testing.
Let’s say we want to compare our PWD to another manufacturer’s DAC and their DAC doesn’t have the ability to act as a preamp – or we want to narrow down the comparison to just the DACS themselves. In that case we have to plug both DACS into the analog preamp and then move the long XLR cables feeding the power amp to the output of the preamp. This process always depresses me – I put it off forever – sometimes never doing it. Why? Because the first thing I have to do is adjust to the sound of the system all over again. It doesn’t sound anywhere near as clean, open and spacious with the preamp in the path. I simply don’t feel like I am doing justice to the music anymore and then how do you make a decision with impure audio? It’s kind of like choosing between two really bad politicians running for the same race. It just sucks.
OK, I am done venting. Tomorrow let’s talk about Paul’s solution to the preamp problem.
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What does Paul have to do with this thread? How about starting a Paul thread in the commercial zone?
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What does Paul have to do with this thread? How about starting a Paul thread in the commercial zone?
I am hoping that Hypex(Bruno) will decide to come out with an all digital amp with built-in Dac, that's all. Since Bruno is on top of his game, he can help to further improve the sound by getting rid of preamps. Preamps have been dead for the last 25 years, IMHO.
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I am hoping that Hypex(Bruno) will decide to come out with an all digital amp with built-in Dac, that's all. Since Bruno is on top of his game, he can help to further improve the sound by getting rid of preamps. Preamps have been dead for the last 25 years, IMHO.
I see. Well, maybe Bruno can respond.
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I am hoping that Hypex(Bruno) will decide to come out with an all digital amp with built-in Dac, that's all. Since Bruno is on top of his game, he can help to further improve the sound by getting rid of preamps. Preamps have been dead for the last 25 years, IMHO.
OzarkTom, unfortunately, and never mind being at “the top of his game”, it appears Bruno is moving in opposite direction to your wish. Under his other company named Mola-Mola, a sister company to Hypex, Bruno just launched (at a Munich high-end show) an Euro 10,000 Preamp that includes a DAC. This Pre/DAC is intended as a matching unit to his EURO 10,000 (per pair) monoblocks that he has specifically designed to showcase his Ncore technology.
Notice that, reportedly, these correspond to Bruno’s current best efforts. This is Bruno himself designing and marketing/selling through a company of his own, not the efforts of a third party "luxury" high-end audio company using his modules. Incidentally, it makes one wonder right away how much real SQ value has Bruno added into his Euro 10,000 rendition of a pair of monoblocks, in particular, aside of just more power, when compared to a DIY rendition--at 1/10th of that price--of a pair of monoblocks using NC400 modules. How high was the bar set before and how higher is he actually setting it now? :scratch:
Mario
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OzarkTom, unfortunately, and never mind being at “the top of his game”, it appears Bruno is moving in opposite direction to your wish. Under his other company named Mola-Mola, a sister company to Hypex, Bruno just launched (at a Munich high-end show) an Euro 10,000 Preamp that includes a DAC. This Pre/DAC is intended as a matching unit to his EURO 10,000 (per pair) monoblocks that he has specifically designed to showcase his Ncore technology.
Notice that, reportedly, these correspond to Bruno’s current best efforts. This is Bruno himself designing and marketing/selling through a company of his own, not the efforts of a third party "luxury" high-end audio company using his modules. Incidentally, it makes one wonder right away how much real SQ value has Bruno added into his Euro 10,000 rendition of a pair of monoblocks, in particular, aside of just more power, when compared to a DIY rendition--at 1/10th of that price--of a pair of monoblocks using NC400 modules. How high was the bar set before and how higher is he actually setting it now? :scratch:
Mario
Some partial answers:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/190434-hypex-ncore-196.html#post2898572
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/190434-hypex-ncore-9.html#post2608169
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Paul sez today on preamps:
Trying to put the genie back in the bottle
So if the days of the analog preamp are numbered because the number of analog sources for it to control are diminishing and if digital preamplifiers really haven’t appeared on the scene in any numbers and have a long way to go before they are accepted as musically satisfying enough, what’s a music lover to do for control?
For many of us nothing: what we have is just fine, thank you. But, if you’re anything like me, it’s unsettling to know that inserting an extra piece of gear in the signal path is giving me less than what’s there. It’s kind of like being comfortable with your daily drive through the backroads of the city to get to work – it’s been your route for many years – and then to discover the city just completed a straight-shot thoroughfare that cuts the drive time in half. The first time you take the shorter path it’s clearly faster, better and makes more sense – but the old drive was prettier, had more charm, wasn’t all that bad and in fact you miss it.
Problem is, every time you’re driving on the old road you are now painfully aware you are taking extra unnecessary steps and those steps are now cutting into your day – and your formerly pleasant drive will simply never be the same. It’ll never be the same because now you have tasted something better.
In our sound room we have a PerfectWave DAC/Bridge setup feeding our power amplifier directly through a long set of XLR cables. All the sources are plugged into the PWD. But we also have one of our analog preamps in the sound room as well. Why is it there? For testing.
Let’s say we want to compare our PWD to another manufacturer’s DAC and their DAC doesn’t have the ability to act as a preamp – or we want to narrow down the comparison to just the DACS themselves. In that case we have to plug both DACS into the analog preamp and then move the long XLR cables feeding the power amp to the output of the preamp. This process always depresses me – I put it off forever – sometimes never doing it. Why? Because the first thing I have to do is adjust to the sound of the system all over again. It doesn’t sound anywhere near as clean, open and spacious with the preamp in the path. I simply don’t feel like I am doing justice to the music anymore and then how do you make a decision with impure audio? It’s kind of like choosing between two really bad politicians running for the same race. It just sucks.
OK, I am done venting. Tomorrow let’s talk about Paul’s solution to the preamp problem.
It seems to me that Paul has an amp with more gain than needed and a poor sounding preamp. The point of a preamp is voltage gain, not just volume control, and the power amp current gain. It also doesn't make sense to put switching and volume controls in a hot chassis with high currents. And, it is best for the voltage gain to have it's own power supply, integrated amps rarely if ever do this.
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Curious minds (mine) needed to know.
On August 5th, 2012 the exchange rate is 1 EUR = 0.8055 USD.
10,000 EUR = 12415.1425 USD
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Paul sez today on preamps:
Trying to put the genie back in the bottle
So if the days of the analog preamp are numbered because the number of analog sources for it to control are diminishing and if digital preamplifiers really haven’t appeared on the scene in any numbers and have a long way to go before they are accepted as musically satisfying enough, what’s a music lover to do for control?
For many of us nothing: what we have is just fine, thank you. But, if you’re anything like me, it’s unsettling to know that inserting an extra piece of gear in the signal path is giving me less than what’s there. It’s kind of like being comfortable with your daily drive through the backroads of the city to get to work – it’s been your route for many years – and then to discover the city just completed a straight-shot thoroughfare that cuts the drive time in half. The first time you take the shorter path it’s clearly faster, better and makes more sense – but the old drive was prettier, had more charm, wasn’t all that bad and in fact you miss it.
Problem is, every time you’re driving on the old road you are now painfully aware you are taking extra unnecessary steps and those steps are now cutting into your day – and your formerly pleasant drive will simply never be the same. It’ll never be the same because now you have tasted something better.
In our sound room we have a PerfectWave DAC/Bridge setup feeding our power amplifier directly through a long set of XLR cables. All the sources are plugged into the PWD. But we also have one of our analog preamps in the sound room as well. Why is it there? For testing.
Let’s say we want to compare our PWD to another manufacturer’s DAC and their DAC doesn’t have the ability to act as a preamp – or we want to narrow down the comparison to just the DACS themselves. In that case we have to plug both DACS into the analog preamp and then move the long XLR cables feeding the power amp to the output of the preamp. This process always depresses me – I put it off forever – sometimes never doing it. Why? Because the first thing I have to do is adjust to the sound of the system all over again. It doesn’t sound anywhere near as clean, open and spacious with the preamp in the path. I simply don’t feel like I am doing justice to the music anymore and then how do you make a decision with impure audio? It’s kind of like choosing between two really bad politicians running for the same race. It just sucks.
OK, I am done venting. Tomorrow let’s talk about Paul’s solution to the preamp problem.
what a load of b$ paul (or you?) obviously don't have a good preamp. and the analogy is not a good analogy. are you trying to get through the listening session as quickly as possible? :o
a better analogy would be the new road that takes you the same amount of time, but also has much nicer scenery. i.e.: using a quality preamp instead of doing w/o. ;)
ymmv,
doug s.
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I am hoping that Hypex(Bruno) will decide to come out with an all digital amp with built-in Dac, that's all. Since Bruno is on top of his game, he can help to further improve the sound by getting rid of preamps. Preamps have been dead for the last 25 years, IMHO.
Dan Wright played his prototype DAC/preamp at 2012 CES, fantastic looks and performance among the top five @ CES, not hindered by his best stereo amp and $30k worth of AudioMachina speakers (cabinets carved from solid aluminum with I presume only one removable panel being the rear, Scan Speak's best drivers, first order crossovers). Dan said the best feature of a one-piece DAC/preamp is deleting one complete gain stage compared to separate DAC/separate preamp.
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To the OP: With my unique ambiance array the user must select between wiring two 8 Ohm monitors per channel either parallel (2.7 Ohm minimum @ 200 Hz, 4 Ohms flat above 600 Hz) or series (10.8 Ohm minimum @ 200 Hz, 16 Ohms flat above 600 Hz).
After limited Ncore experience, it seems to sound more like an ordinary to somewhat better than average amp powering the former load, and what may be my very favorite all time amp powering the latter load.
So maybe bullets don't bounce off Ncore, maybe Ncore does not jump over tall buildings, and stop speeding locomotives after all!
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doug, I am not saying this is what is happening in Paul's case, but in a system that has enough resolution, you can hear when you put another component upstream in the system. It may not be a case of Paul having a lame preamp. The best you can hope for from a perfect preamp is that it passes all of the information coming into it without any losses. Obviously, you are going to see some subtractive errors and this is the best case scenario. I think this is what Paul is alluding to in his commentary. He doesn't expect the preamp to make the system sound "better" after the signal has passed through it. I don't blame Paul for being reluctant to listen to a system that is degraded, how are you going to keep 'em down on the farm once they've been to 'Gay Paree'.
Scotty
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DaveC113, Paul doesn't necessarily have a power amp with too much gain and a preamps' job does not have to be voltage gain. There is more than one way to get the job done and get enough voltage gain in a system.
You are better off if you can keep your signal path as simple as possible. If your speakers have enough sensitivity you can eliminate the preamps gain stage and the parts count in the signal path that goes with. With the de facto industry standard from most digital sources set at 2volts out, this leaves you with only the job of attenuating the signal from the source to avoid clipping from the amplifier. This assumes that the amp has an input sensitivity of less than 2volts to produce full power output.
In my particular case, I have 95dB sensitive speakers and an amp with an input sensitivity of 1 volt for full power out. This lets me use a zero gain, zero feedback buffer to control volume, instead of a preamplifier with gain. It also allows me to reduce the parts count in the signal path. My buffer has only one active device in the signal path and the power amplifier has five active devices, for a grand total of six. The KISS rule of engineering actually does yield benefits if you stick to it.
Scotty
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i guess, as discussed earlier, it depends on whether you want to be more faithful to the the recording, or to the music itself. :wink: imo, a good preamp gets you closer to the music, than w/o one.
as always, ymmv
doug s.
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This thread is now about Paul's thoughts on preamps? This thread has had more twists and turns than even the fabled Lombard Street in beautiful San Francisco.
Jim
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DaveC113, Paul doesn't necessarily have a power amp with too much gain and a preamps' job does not have to be voltage gain. There is more than one way to get the job done and get enough voltage gain in a system.
You are better off if you can keep your signal path as simple as possible. If your speakers have enough sensitivity you can eliminate the preamps gain stage and the parts count in the signal path that goes with. With the de facto industry standard from most digital sources set at 2volts out, this leaves you with only the job of attenuating the signal from the source to avoid clipping from the amplifier. This assumes that the amp has an input sensitivity of less than 2volts to produce full power output.
In my particular case, I have 95dB sensitive speakers and an amp with an input sensitivity of 1 volt for full power out. This lets me use a zero gain, zero feedback buffer to control volume, instead of a preamplifier with gain. It also allows me to reduce the parts count in the signal path. My buffer has only one active device in the signal path and the power amplifier has five active devices, for a grand total of six. The KISS rule of engineering actually does yield benefits if you stick to it.
Scotty
Well, my perspective is from building tube equipment. In my 2 stage SET amp, there are compromises that will need to be made if you want enough gain without an active pre, such as a higher gain driver tube that is less linear. I use a lower gain driver that is more linear and capable of handling a lot more current than higher gain alternatives, therefore I need a preamp with gain... or a 3 stage amplifier... or a 2 stage that makes some sonic compromises to have enough gain.
IMO, it is better to have a quality 3 stage amplification system rather than the compromised 2 stage. A high quality preamp with it's own separate power supply can perform voltage gain more cleanly than an integrated amp with a 3 stage design and one power supply for all 3 stages.
And I believe this sticks with the KISS principle, which I agree with. I have half the active devices in the signal path as you, and I hear tubes can be pretty linear. :wink:
But since this thread is about digital amps, the design considerations are going to be very different vs tubes.... I will stick with my tubes for now. I know very little about class D vs class A amplification.
Oh, also I still think Paul has an amp with too much gain if it can't switch sources and volume and he wants to use it with an active preamp. Seems like the issue is gain structure, not how many chassis the amplification is in. I mean, if you wanted to you could have a bunch of separate chassis for each amplification device and each power supply. If they are monoblocks you could easily have your amplification in many different chassis. I think the proof is in the result, whether or not the designer thinks there is a benefit to multiple chassis depends on his design choices and one alternative (a single chassis for everything) may or may not be best.
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I think one of the key things to take away from Paul's comments is to realize that he is not listening for pleasure. He is doing product research and development where the goal is to hear and understand the impact a given circuit design has the sound of a product. He has to control or eliminate as many variables as he can in order for his research to yield meaningful data. The preamp in this case can be a liability and not an asset.
Scotty
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what a load of b$ paul (or you?) obviously don't have a good preamp. and the analogy is not a good analogy. are you trying to get through the listening session as quickly as possible? :o
a better analogy would be the new road that takes you the same amount of time, but also has much nicer scenery. i.e.: using a quality preamp instead of doing w/o. ;)
ymmv,
doug s.
Ya talking to me? Ya talking to me?
As a dealer I sold Threshold, David Berning, Melos, PS Audio, Counterpoint, Conrad Johnson, Levinson, Rowland, Classe, Cary, Spectral, Sumo, Bedini, Acoustat, to name a few. I also took a lot of trades so I also had Krell and Audio Research at my disposal. Maybe you are right. None of these companies ever made a good preamp.
I currently use the AMR DP-777 Dac/Pre and love it. But I am certain an amp/pre/dac would sound even better. That alone would get rid of another set of cables.
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tom, i guess we must simply agree to disagree... 8)
doug s.
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Is this the thread about my last Home Owner's Association meeting?
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Is this the thread about my last Home Owner's Association meeting?
:lol: that's why i will never live in a hoa community. it's one thing for us to disagree about our stereos, but at least we don't require others to listen to music thru equipment we listen thru. :green:
doug s.
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I don't mind the bickering and name calling but enough of the preamp discussion. Start your own thread if you want to talk preamps. This is about Ncore, from the perspective of non Kool-Aid drinking non-fanboys, not goofs talking preamps. There you go, I've just supplied the title of your preamp thread, should you choose to start one. Maybe a guy who I wil not mention will chime in with speculation as to how the Ncore will play with he opto-mom preamp.
Let's stay focused and get back to the Ncore discussion. No Kool-aid allowed around here.
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:lol: that's why i will never live in a hoa community. it's one thing for us to disagree about our stereos, but at least we don't require others to listen to music thru equipment we listen thru. :green:
doug s.
With peaks hovering round 110 dB or more (Peter Gabriel) in this basement sound room, I stood outside, above the only light well upstairs. Standing just several feet from the light well at the wall of the house next door, even the bass was acceptably damped.
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With peaks hovering round 110 dB or more (Peter Gabriel) in this basement sound room, I stood outside, above the only light well upstairs. Standing just several feet from the light well at the wall of the house next door, even the bass was acceptably damped.
spl's are only one issue w/hoa's. then, there's what you can have on your porch, what color front door is acceptable, what color can you paint the house, what antenna can you put on your roof, what can be in your driveway, whether you can have an amp in your system that isn't an n-core... :lol:
doug s.
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Geez, this effing thread has now morphed to an HOA discussion. I'm the VP of my HOA, nobody dare complains about how loud I play my music!
Jim
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My experience is this:
In a setup with obvious weaknesses like uneven frequency response (often lack of midbass and warmth), high gain colored reflections and poor off-axis response a colored amp is often necessary for it to sound decent. In some ways it covers the flaws of the system. But the system never reaches great heights.
A very good and balanced setup however sounds best with an amp that adds/subtracts as little as possible. In a setup like this a colored amp will often be experienced to alter the sound in a negative way.
With some very poor recordings the colored amp might come out better but not overall with a variery of music.
The problem IMO is that not many has heard a great and balanced setup and often have serious flaws in their systems. Most commercial speakers aren't that great really and few have both the possibility and knowledge of how to treat a room properly. Even hiring someone that one may seem like an "expert" doesn't necessarily get one there.
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Bjorn, agreed on all of your points RE: coloration/tonality. But this does not address what I found to be the weakness of the nCore, not a coloration, or tonal issue, but a lack of detail in the high frequencies.
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My HOA limits super large guady NCore logos!
Just kidding I would never live in a place like that.
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Bjorn, agreed on all of your points RE: coloration/tonality. But this does not address what I found to be the weakness of the nCore, not a coloration, or tonal issue, but a lack of detail in the high frequencies.
The question is then; Does the lack of detail in the highs you experience come from Ncore, your speakers/room or/and being custom to too much from other amps. Very difficult to know, but I believe measurements gives a better answer then anything.
A problem with many speakers is they get narrower in the top frequencies. This may give less reflections from the room, but it can also make the sound a bit dull. Especially if the room has more absorption of the highs then in the mids and lows, and that's very common.
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The question is then; Does the lack of detail in the highs you experience come from Ncore, your speakers/room or/and being custom to too much from other amps. Very difficult to know, but I believe measurements gives a better answer then anything....
If you can find a objective measure that corresponds to the reported subjective lack of treble detail, more power to ya....
I've replaced the provided Mogami 2791 input cabling on my Nc400s with my own twisted pair shielded cable and got a substantial increase in subjective treble detail. Subsequently, Hypex has changed their input harness cable to their own custom sourced cable. It would be interesting to compare the original Hypex Mogami cable harness to their new input cable harness.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105438.320
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As an observor not an N-Core owner I'm trying to get an idea of the character the Amp in different systems. Since all systems are different it would be helpfull to know ALL the associated gear used in each case. We all know that everything makes a difference. What changed when the N-core was inserted ?
Is it Neutral ? Colored ? Thin ? Dynamic ? detailed ? What ? We can only learn what the N-Core does in our systems.
Currently using Hybrid [ 6H30 for input ] Class "D" Mono Blocks [ Cyber 211s resting at this time ] with Pipedream Speakers and Loesch & Weisner tubed Preamp.
So maybe a direct comparison to the amp used before the N-core graced your systen might be more helpfull in understanding the character of the N- Core.
How about an "A" to "B" to "A" comparison to your original amp and a report back. Curious minds want to know.
charles
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As an observor not an N-Core owner I'm trying to get an idea of the character the Amp in different systems. Since all systems are different it would be helpfull to know ALL the associated gear used in each case. We all know that everything makes a difference. What changed when the N-core was inserted ?
Is it Neutral ? Colored ? Thin ? Dynamic ? detailed ? What ? We can only learn what the N-Core does in our systems.
Currently using Hybrid [ 6H30 for input ] Class "D" Mono Blocks [ Cyber 211s resting at this time ] with Pipedream Speakers and Loesch & Weisner tubed Preamp.
So maybe a direct comparison to the amp used before the N-core graced your systen might be more helpfull in understanding the character of the N- Core.
How about an "A" to "B" to "A" comparison to your original amp and a report back. Curious minds want to know.
charles
The problem with what you are asking for is that on the Ncore tour(s), each participant has the Ncores for no more than 3 days....all the back and forth would actually be a detraction. Now, if the listener/participant had say a week if might be practical.
I think most are telling you what their system is and that for the most part they're directly inserting the Ncores in lieu of their own amp(s).
20/20 is stupidity, but the Ncores should have been sent to a couple of professional reviewers for inclusion in their respective magazines and given the full treatment. It would have validated one side or the other....
Jim
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There is no perfect evaluation system. Ideally, it would be great to have the amps for a week or two, but that would not be practical or fair to JT, who was nice enough to lend his personal units out to the AC folks.
My time with the NCore amps was not long enough to provide a complete and detailed review, but I was extremely impressed by their performance in Roscoe's system. Compared to my Coda amp, the NCore had much tighter and deeper bass, mids had a bit less weight but that's not necessarily a bad thing, and high frequencies were realistic with excellent shimmer and extension. More importantly (to me at least) the image was rock-solid and very three dimensional, compared to the other amp. Everything was balanced and I was really enjoying the sound of the system with the NCore amps.
The NCore amps sounded great with Roscoe's SS high end MF preamp and maybe a bit better (at least no worse) with his budget tube preamp (forgot brand). All of the music we demo'd was on vinyl and I can't imagine anything sounding less than good on Roscoe's beautiful analog system, but the NCore stood out, particularly in the lower region. The little NCore amps had a death grip on those woofers, but saying they are amps with "great bass control" sells the NCore short. The NCore amps exceeded my expectations. I encourage anyone in the market to take them for a test drive.
Cheers,
Jack
PS - this is coming from the guy who started the smart-a$$ thread. I've stated from the start that I'm a fan of NCore and plan to build a set. I just wanted this to be a place where people could exchange ideas and comments without being badgered or questioned by the couple kool-aid boys who felt the need to pee in the punch bowl. You have the right to NOT like the NCore but I don't think it's fair for people to slam them if you have never heard them. This just makes you look foolish, IMO. I try to be open minded and it didn't take long for the NCore to impress me.
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Well put Jack. I'd agree with all of what you wrote. Yes, I do think that the pairing with the MF kW preamp (a hybrid design, not SS; but more SS sounding in character and with a crazy low output impedance), wasn't as good as the Little Dot MkVI (a balanced tube headphone amp/preamp that usually powers my HE-5LEs).
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...the Ncores should have been sent to a couple of professional reviewers for inclusion in their respective magazines and given the full treatment. It would have validated one side or the other....
i totally disagree w/this statement. while i enjoy reading some professional rewiewers' writings, i think their opinions would give no more walidation to "one side or the other" than what is already there.
ymmv,
doug s.
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doug s:
It would as it would be outside of the fish tank and there wouldn't be any built in biases or such. Too many here have too much investment to be totally objective, from both sides of the fence.
Jim
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doug s:
It would as it would be outside of the fish tank and there wouldn't be any built in biases or such. Too many here have too much investment to be totally objective, from both sides of the fence.
Jim
Jim - I find your credulity absolutely delightful! Misplaced, but charming, nevertheless...
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Occam:
It would be delightful if my credulity was indeed misplaced, I've been around too long and have seen all of the greatest things come along only to have something else replace it as the flavor of the month.
It is too easy to get caught up in ground swell. Time will tell.
Jim
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There is no perfect evaluation system. Ideally, it would be great to have the amps for a week or two, but that would not be practical or fair to JT, who was nice enough to lend his personal units out to the AC folks.
My time with the NCore amps was not long enough to provide a complete and detailed review, but I was extremely impressed by their performance in Roscoe's system. Compared to my Coda amp, the NCore had much tighter and deeper bass, mids had a bit less weight but that's not necessarily a bad thing, and high frequencies were realistic with excellent shimmer and extension. More importantly (to me at least) the image was rock-solid and very three dimensional, compared to the other amp. Everything was balanced and I was really enjoying the sound of the system with the NCore amps.
The NCore amps sounded great with Roscoe's SS high end MF preamp and maybe a bit better (at least no worse) with his budget tube preamp (forgot brand). All of the music we demo'd was on vinyl and I can't imagine anything sounding less than good on Roscoe's beautiful analog system, but the NCore stood out, particularly in the lower region. The little NCore amps had a death grip on those woofers, but saying they are amps with "great bass control" sells the NCore short. The NCore amps exceeded my expectations. I encourage anyone in the market to take them for a test drive.
Cheers,
Jack
PS - this is coming from the guy who started the smart-a$$ thread. I've stated from the start that I'm a fan of NCore and plan to build a set. I just wanted this to be a place where people could exchange ideas and comments without being badgered or questioned by the couple kool-aid boys who felt the need to pee in the punch bowl. You have the right to NOT like the NCore but I don't think it's fair for people to slam them if you have never heard them. This just makes you look foolish, IMO. I try to be open minded and it didn't take long for the NCore to impress me.
Jack, you and I will get into it once football season starts (and why not, that’s part of the fun of being a fan). ;)
As far this thread goes, agree with your thoughts on this. Glad you started it.
A couple of things worth mentioning:
1) The Ncore hype is pretty much limited to this sight and some over on DIY. So, that needs to be factored in. I do not see evidence that the larger audio community has fully embraced it (yet).
2) Not everyone who has heard the amp was impressed. I know of a couple of well respected folks (with good audio credentials) who listened to it and were not impressed. The feedback was along the lines of the Ncore lacking soul and body of sound, super detailed to the point of sounding artificial. As they say, "Horses For Courses". :thumb:
After an impressive evaluation of the 32 wpc TBI Millenia MG3 Class D amp on a SLA battery, my interest is really piqued to hear the Ncores on my speakers to see how they sound.
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Occam:
It would be delightful if my credulity was indeed misplaced, I've been around too long and have seen all of the greatest things come along only to have something else replace it as the flavor of the month.
It is too easy to get caught up in ground swell. Time will tell.
Jim
Jim,
I certainly don't dispute your contention about enthusiastic groundswells. My point is simply that a professional reviewer's comments are subject to those same issues of momentum, as well as the occasionally with some specific reviewers the difficulty of making a valid evaluation with their head so far up their arse that with their ears covered, I certainly can understand their evaluation differing so greatly from mine. It is generally known and accepted that reviewers receive industry accommodation pricing, but regardless of a publications stated guidelines, some reviewers expect a permanent loan and that that 'loaned' component will end up on Audiogon. [NONE of the reviewers who post on AC do so, to my knowledge] A professional reviewer's writings are IMO, useless unless one has heard some the same components that they've written about, offering the opportunity to calibrate their opinions against yours.
That being said, as I've heard Mike Galusha's system, and we've had much opportunity to calibrate our own opinions against the others, I trust Mike's opinions far more than any reviewers. YMMV
FWIW,
Paul
EDIT: BUT WAIT! THERE'S MORE Mike Galusha is a professional reviewer
http://www.stereomojo.com/FletcherHaynes_Kokopele_Monoblock_Amplifers_review.htm/FletcherHaynesKokopeleMonoblockAmplifersreview.htm
So not only is mike a DIYer extrodinaire, as well as a bon vivant, raconteur, but a genuine perfeshun'l revoo'r. Is youse happy now?
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Paul:
No doubt that there have been several conscientious reviews by fellow AC'ers, yet many have been subject to confirmation bias and ground swell.
The Ncores are flying under the radar as far as the rest of the audio community and while many if the professional reviewers are just that, hired guns, there still are some that still have ethics, one would be Steven Stone, who is also a AC Member. Maybe he could be included as the 13th participant of the 2nd tour.
Jim
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doug s:
It would as it would be outside of the fish tank and there wouldn't be any built in biases or such. Too many here have too much investment to be totally objective, from both sides of the fence.
Jim
ya - commercial rewiewers never have any built-in biases or such. and they are always totally objective - they have nothing inwested in this hobby, after all it's a business for them, not a hobby - so why wouldn't they be totally objective? silly me - what was i thinking?!? :lol:
doug s.
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...many have been subject to confirmation bias and ground swell...
regarding those who have listened to the ncores, this is nothing but 100% pure speculation on your part.
doug s.
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Doug S
I love how you like to stir the pot. ymmv...
Jim
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Well, let me attempt to provide a bit of a balanced review with plenty of background, and maybe you guys can give me some advice. I've been using Ncores most of the summer, although fairly infrequently. I just don't have the time to sit and listen as much as I used to given some lifestyle changes. Anyway...
I have Tekton Lores, unmodified, and also using Tranquility SE with upgraded output stage, DB Labs SE USB cable, Mac Mini with SSD and 8GB RAM, Decibel player, and Ed Schilling's The Truth photocell buffer pre. The Ncores have substituted for a Dayens Ampino.
For me, the Ncores greatly enhance soundstage depth and imaging over the Ampino. Microdynamic details are also much greater. It's also smoother and very grain free. There's no noise. Yet, I have to agree with some of the comments about some of the "magic" not being there. I've noted over a half dozen or so listening sessions over the past month or so a lack of presence that I really value. That "electricity" of a Stevie Ray Vaughn guitar in the air, or the real snap of drums or whatever. I just can't make that Ween: Live in Chicago album sound as "live" as I'm used to, despite all the greater spatial resolution and dynamic details and such. Same with the Martin Sexton: Live Wide Open album. To a degree, it's like I'm listening to really well produced recorded music, but the music isn't live and in the room with me the way I would like and feel like I've heard at points in my past system evolution.
I was reading the Darko review of WLM Stella floorstanders yesterday (http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2011/03/wlm-stella-floorstanding-loudspeaker/) and found myself really resonating with the following aside on amplifier matching:
"I re-imagined the more PRaT-centric amplifiers of months gone by. Consider a Naim Nait 5i: a simple and highly-regarded integrated amplifier, it has the power, the bounce, the grit, the sheer electrification to set these small floorstanders alight. Musing theoretically for a monent: if you like more pepper in your sauce, the Nait 5i might be the saucier for the job. Halving the amplifier spend again, the (also Serbian) Dayens Ampino would grit the treble with a hint of electric salt; it takes the smooth from ATC SCM 11 tweeter. Some loudspeakers require a salt lick and citrus suck to get them away from the safety haven of words like “classy” and/or “nice” and provide more of that tequila headrush. Who wants “nice”? Nice guys don’t the get the girl. The ATC SCM 11 are such a product – the Ampino airlifted them from Pleasantville. The WLM’s midrange cleanliness is easily the match of this Brit rival. The SCM series’ lack of top-end air is their only weakness – if only they shipped with a tweeter lemon twist."
I feel like the Ncore make my system really improves on many aspects of my system, but it does go too far into that territory of clean, "classy", and "nice" as he says. The control Ncores offer does remove the raw energy or the "saltiness" of the Ampino as he puts it.
Now, none of that is total news if you've been reading the other reviews. Others have noted some of these characteristics in their systems, and one dialog on the tour impressions thread discussed the Ncores putting you in the middle of the hall rather than right up front. They're not forward amps.
Ok, so what of the rest of my system, then. Is there a way of tweaking my system to be able to use all the great benefits of control, detail, lack of noise, soundstage/imaging, etc while also bringing back that "you are there" magic?
Tekton Lores - they're high efficiency, and pro-audio oriented main drivers handling most of the frequency band. Ncore is class D with high damping factor and woofer control. While that may be excellent news for many speakers, the Lores probably don't need ultra-high damping. Maybe like that review mentioned with other speakers, the Ampino really is a great match because it brings that "electric" energy to the table that gives instruments a live presence in the room. A suggestion I received from someone was that I could insert a resistor in series with my speaker outputs to reduce damping factor the speakers see from the amps. Worth a try? Or would that resistor just muck up the really high quality output of the Ncores?
The Truth pre - it's a unity gain buffer using some kind of photo cell to somehow adjust the gain of the buffer. Maybe I need some more gain? Perhaps a tube preamp? I know I don't need more gain to drive the amps to the volume levels I need. I never get that close to full output, with the speakers as high efficiency as they are. And the Tranquility has plenty of voltage output so that it doesn't need extra gain. But would some extra preamp gain help in juicing the dynamics and bringing back some of that energy? Or would the right kind of modern tube preamp do the job?
Or is it that Ncore just aren't a great match with my high efficiency speakers? Do I need to consider either moving on from Ncore or experimenting with some different speakers? I've been in the low power high efficiency camp for a while, largely because I just can't handle the high energy consumption of lots of the gear out there and demands of speakers out there. I'm trying to minimize my energy consumption throughout my lifestyle, and audiophilia is one of my few guilty pleasures on that front - but only to a point. But the Ncore are efficient enough and have enough headroom that I could reasonably consider some less efficient speakers and it wouldn't make much difference on the energy consumption front. They could be game-changers for me in opening up new worlds of speaker possibilities that I have previously ignored. But then again, the new Red Wine Audio 15 watt integrated can be had for about as much as the Ncore modules and power supplies, and I seriously doubt I need more than 15 watts for 98db speakers in my room.
How was that for a review with some context? Did I miss anything? Any advice for me?
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As an observor not an N-Core owner I'm trying to get an idea of the character the Amp in different systems. Since all systems are different it would be helpfull to know ALL the associated gear used in each case. We all know that everything makes a difference. What changed when the N-core was inserted ?
Is it Neutral ? Colored ? Thin ? Dynamic ? detailed ? What ? We can only learn what the N-Core does in our systems.
Currently using Hybrid [ 6H30 for input ] Class "D" Mono Blocks [ Cyber 211s resting at this time ] with Pipedream Speakers and Loesch & Weisner tubed Preamp.
So maybe a direct comparison to the amp used before the N-core graced your systen might be more helpfull in understanding the character of the N- Core.
How about an "A" to "B" to "A" comparison to your original amp and a report back. Curious minds want to know.
charles
That’s pretty hard to capture into words. One persons detail and clarity is someone else’s idea of an ear bleeder. How amps react to the impedance swings with a speaker in a given room plays a large part of the how the sound is perceived.
While the Ncore has plenty of power, how it (or any amp, for that manner) will sound reproducing the entire frequency spectrum in your system is a bit harder to assess. Measurements can get you part of the way there, but in the final analysis, you need to have the target amp with your system in your room to accurately work out if you are going to like it or not.
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Well, let me attempt to provide a bit of a balanced review with plenty of background, and maybe you guys can give me some advice. I've been using Ncores most of the summer, although fairly infrequently. I just don't have the time to sit and listen as much as I used to given some lifestyle changes. Anyway...
I have Tekton Lores, unmodified, and also using Tranquility SE with upgraded output stage, DB Labs SE USB cable, Mac Mini with SSD and 8GB RAM, Decibel player, and Ed Schilling's The Truth photocell buffer pre. The Ncores have substituted for a Dayens Ampino.
For me, the Ncores greatly enhance soundstage depth and imaging over the Ampino. Microdynamic details are also much greater. It's also smoother and very grain free. There's no noise. Yet, I have to agree with some of the comments about some of the "magic" not being there. I've noted over a half dozen or so listening sessions over the past month or so a lack of presence that I really value. That "electricity" of a Stevie Ray Vaughn guitar in the air, or the real snap of drums or whatever. I just can't make that Ween: Live in Chicago album sound as "live" as I'm used to, despite all the greater spatial resolution and dynamic details and such. Same with the Martin Sexton: Live Wide Open album. To a degree, it's like I'm listening to really well produced recorded music, but the music isn't live and in the room with me the way I would like and feel like I've heard at points in my past system evolution.
I was reading the Darko review of WLM Stella floorstanders yesterday (http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2011/03/wlm-stella-floorstanding-loudspeaker/ (http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2011/03/wlm-stella-floorstanding-loudspeaker/)) and found myself really resonating with the following aside on amplifier matching:
"I re-imagined the more PRaT-centric amplifiers of months gone by. Consider a Naim Nait 5i: a simple and highly-regarded integrated amplifier, it has the power, the bounce, the grit, the sheer electrification to set these small floorstanders alight. Musing theoretically for a monent: if you like more pepper in your sauce, the Nait 5i might be the saucier for the job. Halving the amplifier spend again, the (also Serbian) Dayens Ampino would grit the treble with a hint of electric salt; it takes the smooth from ATC SCM 11 tweeter. Some loudspeakers require a salt lick and citrus suck to get them away from the safety haven of words like “classy” and/or “nice” and provide more of that tequila headrush. Who wants “nice”? Nice guys don’t the get the girl. The ATC SCM 11 are such a product – the Ampino airlifted them from Pleasantville. The WLM’s midrange cleanliness is easily the match of this Brit rival. The SCM series’ lack of top-end air is their only weakness – if only they shipped with a tweeter lemon twist."
I feel like the Ncore make my system really improves on many aspects of my system, but it does go too far into that territory of clean, "classy", and "nice" as he says. The control Ncores offer does remove the raw energy or the "saltiness" of the Ampino as he puts it.
Now, none of that is total news if you've been reading the other reviews. Others have noted some of these characteristics in their systems, and one dialog on the tour impressions thread discussed the Ncores putting you in the middle of the hall rather than right up front. They're not forward amps.
Ok, so what of the rest of my system, then. Is there a way of tweaking my system to be able to use all the great benefits of control, detail, lack of noise, soundstage/imaging, etc while also bringing back that "you are there" magic?
Tekton Lores - they're high efficiency, and pro-audio oriented main drivers handling most of the frequency band. Ncore is class D with high damping factor and woofer control. While that may be excellent news for many speakers, the Lores probably don't need ultra-high damping. Maybe like that review mentioned with other speakers, the Ampino really is a great match because it brings that "electric" energy to the table that gives instruments a live presence in the room. A suggestion I received from someone was that I could insert a resistor in series with my speaker outputs to reduce damping factor the speakers see from the amps. Worth a try? Or would that resistor just muck up the really high quality output of the Ncores?
The Truth pre - it's a unity gain buffer using some kind of photo cell to somehow adjust the gain of the buffer. Maybe I need some more gain? Perhaps a tube preamp? I know I don't need more gain to drive the amps to the volume levels I need. I never get that close to full output, with the speakers as high efficiency as they are. And the Tranquility has plenty of voltage output so that it doesn't need extra gain. But would some extra preamp gain help in juicing the dynamics and bringing back some of that energy? Or would the right kind of modern tube preamp do the job?
Or is it that Ncore just aren't a great match with my high efficiency speakers? Do I need to consider either moving on from Ncore or experimenting with some different speakers? I've been in the low power high efficiency camp for a while, largely because I just can't handle the high energy consumption of lots of the gear out there and demands of speakers out there. I'm trying to minimize my energy consumption throughout my lifestyle, and audiophilia is one of my few guilty pleasures on that front - but only to a point. But the Ncore are efficient enough and have enough headroom that I could reasonably consider some less efficient speakers and it wouldn't make much difference on the energy consumption front. They could be game-changers for me in opening up new worlds of speaker possibilities that I have previously ignored. But then again, the new Red Wine Audio 15 watt integrated can be had for about as much as the Ncore modules and power supplies, and I seriously doubt I need more than 15 watts for 98db speakers in my room.
How was that for a review with some context? Did I miss anything? Any advice for me?
Pretty darn good. 8)
With your speakers, you may wish to sign up for this tour:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=108242.msg1120724;topicseen#new (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=108242.msg1120724;topicseen#new)
Or, you could just buy a Pass Labs XA 30.5 and be done with it :lol: (I'm joking)
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Hi Freo,
You bring up some good points, and I'm not sure I know the answers to your questions, but, seeing as this is the internet and speculation is not only accepted, it is highly encouraged, I'm happy to give you a couple guesses!
First, the NCore technology is new and only found in a DIY Kit and in a couple mega-expensive commercial amps that I'm not even sure are on the market yet. There are some people who would NEVER build or use a DIY kit, no matter how easy it is to assemble or how much value it represents. Also, there is no return policy if you blow it up and some possible safety issues some people are unwilling to risk (playing with electricity can be dangerous if you don't know what you are doing).
After hearing the Ncore, I can understand some of the enthusiasm. Are other amp manufacturers going to raise the white flag (unofficial flag of France)? Not likely, but this technology represents another option for audiophiles to agonize over, and to debate. Either way, it's worth trying because you might like it. Of course, the same is true of many other designs. Despite what some people would have you believe, only you know what sounds best to you. There is no wrong answer.
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Despite what some people would have you believe, only you know what sounds best to you. There is no wrong answer.
Bingo
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Doug S
I love how you like to stir the pot. ymmv...
Jim
you say i'm stirring the pot because i responded to what i consider to be a completely ridiculous, absurd, off the wall opinion? that paid rewiewers will be more impartial than hobbyists? that's an interesting take on it...
doug s.
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Hi Freo,
You bring up some good points, and I'm not sure I know the answers to your questions, but, seeing as this is the internet and speculation is not only accepted, it is highly encouraged, I'm happy to give you a couple guesses!
First, the NCore technology is new and only found in a DIY Kit and in a couple mega-expensive commercial amps that I'm not even sure are on the market yet. There are some people who would NEVER build or use a DIY kit, no matter how easy it is to assemble or how much value it represents. Also, there is no return policy if you blow it up and some possible safety issues some people are unwilling to risk (playing with electricity can be dangerous if you don't know what you are doing).
After hearing the Ncore, I can understand some of the enthusiasm. Are other amp manufacturers going to raise the white flag (unofficial flag of France)? Not likely, but this technology represents another option for audiophiles to agonize over, and to debate. Either way, it's worth trying because you might like it. Of course, the same is true of many other designs. Despite what some people would have you believe, only you know what sounds best to you. There is no wrong answer.
Cheers Mate! Good post. :thumb:
I know the little 32 watt TBI sounds damn good for a Class D, and has opened my ears to the likelihood that the Ncore could also be that good also. I also know that the people who have heard it and did not like it have similar tastes to mine, and their opinions are one I respect (and some are active in the industry). That does not mean everyone will agree all the time, and that is fine as well.
So, I think each one of us needs to make up our own minds, and not worry what anyone else thinks.
I do wonder how the Ncores would sound with a battery power supply? ;)
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Reviewers are ALWAYS bias. It's a fact of life. The worst part of pro reviews is when they talk of value. They don't pay retail!! When they say "golly this $9k phono cart is worth every dollar. What they mean is 'This cart I payed $3k' is worth every dollar'.
Then notice all the ads from said cart company throughout mag.
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you say i'm stirring the pot because i responded to what i consider to be a completely ridiculous, absurd, off the wall opinion? that paid rewiewers will be more impartial than hobbyists? that's an interesting take on it...
doug s.
Doug S
Yes, in a word....that is why I offered up a name of a hobbyist (a member of the AC) who also happens to be a professional reviewer, Steven Stone. Hell, he did the review of my reissue Marantz 9's and he was totally objective and even found some faults with them. In my opinion, he would be bound by only what he truly thought of them.
ymmv
Jim
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Not all the reviewers and not always. :nono:
I did a short gig as an unpaid reviewer - it was a hobby - it still is.
First off - it improved my system :thumb:
Second - it forced me to listen more critically :duh: as a result I enjoyed less music :scratch:
Third - it took enormous amount of time and energy and resources to do a simple review which took less than 10 minutes to read.
Forth - I am less critical of reviewers now than I was before
Believe me it was so hard to write a bad review - it hurts people and their businesses. Besides there are so many variables and factors that can and do influence final sound.
Above all is the genre preference - people may have opposite reaction to a type of music - say Rap or Classical ...
And I have sat on a review too long - cause life happens :lol:
Cheers
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So let me get this right, professional reviewers only say good things and never pan? All are bought and paid for and will pander to the highest bidder? Only hobbyist can render a proper review, especially on a forum and behind a made up moniker? Have I missed something?
Jim
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Oh, hobbiests are even more bias!! They spent thier hard earned money! Do you think they ever want to admit they were duped by the hype? Then there are DIYers like myself. Everything I build is the best ever. I really only make evaluations of gear after months of listening. I also have ZERO trust in anyone who claims to have any real auditory memory.
"I have listened to 14 amps in my system and this has the best transparency"
My ass...
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So let me get this right, professional reviewers only say good things and never pan? All are bought and paid for and will pander to the highest bidder? Only hobbyist can render a proper review, especially on a forum and behind a made up moniker? Have I missed something?
Jim
the only thing you missed - imo of course - is that professional rewiewers are needed for unbiased rewiews.
because there is one rewiewer that you believe will give an unbiased opinion, doesn't mean your statement that typical rewiewers are less biased than typical hobyists isn't patently absurd. in fact, i would posit the opposite to be true, - if you want to generalize, i would say there is less bias in the hobbyist rewiews than there is in the professional rewiews.
doug s.
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Oh, hobbiests are even more bias!! They spent thier hard earned money! Do you think they ever want to admit they were duped by the hype? Then there are DIYers like myself. Everything I build is the best ever. I really only make evaluations of gear after months of listening. I also have ZERO trust in anyone who claims to have any real auditory memory.
"I have listened to 14 amps in my system and this has the best transparency"
My ass...
I'm not sure this applies to everyone but I think bias is not limited to pro reviewers. I trust some of them versus anon internet "reviews" but we all have bias...weather we admit it or not. Except me, of course. :P
I wrote this earlier in the thread but will repeat it (not verbatum!), when some people hear a piece of gear or sound better than a non-preferred brand, they say things like, "these speakers stomped brand X", but when the new speakers or gear sounds better than their fan-boy brand, they talk about synergy, or they say something mild, or say something like "it was very close", etc. In the NCore thread, when people said they liked another brand over the NCore, the Fanboys (some of them) would question the system or other components, or question the reviewer. They only questioned people who expressed views that were different than theirs. If the person liked the NCORe, they really didn't care about the system.
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In the NCore thread, when people said they liked another brand over the NCore, the Fanboys (some of them) would question the system or other components, or question the reviewer. They only questioned people who expressed views that were different than theirs. If the person liked the NCORe, they really didn't care about the system.
Should I copy my previous post over in the other thread and see what happens? See if their responses are different than the ones here?
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Should I copy my previous post over in the other thread and see what happens? See if their responses are different than the ones here?
Yes. I would try the Solid State area, and stress the listening issues you are hearing. Enclosures would also be good.
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Should I copy my previous post over in the other thread and see what happens? See if their responses are different than the ones here?
Two things. Those guys read this thread and I don't think you will get the same types of questions. Also, I think some of the people who would be likely to antagonize you may be in penalty box so the entertainment value of your post and the responses might be dimished. There are lots of good guys in the other thread and I'm sure you might get some good feedback and suggestions. If your goal is improving your sound and finding out what is really happening in your system.
I'm not familiar with the Tekton speakers and have only seen pictures. It's hard to believe a two way, minimalist design is capable of deep bass and reasonable SPL's. My system is the complete opposite (active woofers, relatively complex crossovers on monitor section, etc.). I've never heard a 2 way with really good, deep bass, but I'm open minded.
Cheers,
J
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First off, I'm not trying to negate what those who have reviewed them have said, nor to diminish the generosity of Jason. It is just the fact that outside of the DIY and AC forum, the Ncores are not known. That is the ground swell or fish bowl syndrome I speak of.
The more money one spends, the less objective they tend to be about their expenditures, call it human nature. Hobbyists are the worst as the need to justify and defend their systems. I suppose this cuts both ways here.
Are all paid or amateur reviewers unbiased? No, we all bring baggage. Yet, I would still like to hear/read what someone who has no dog in this, has to say. Is the fear that they would only find good things to say, or honestly flesh out some shortcomings?
Jim
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Ok, so what of the rest of my system, then. Is there a way of tweaking my system to be able to use all the great benefits of control, detail, lack of noise, soundstage/imaging, etc while also bringing back that "you are there" magic?
I have heard a few class D amps and was never satisfied with my system. Couldn't get it quite right... D amps seem very responsive to changes in cabling, power supply and tweaks, so I went there for a bit, it all helped but never got it right. I even got a nice tube preamp with a 6922 mu follower circuit. The speakers never disappeared and it sounded like a mid fi system.
That all changed after I built an EL34 SET amp. It has 5-6 wpc and is enough to push my 93 dB Omega 5 XRS to their limit. SET amps may not be efficient, but a low powered SET isn't going to waste that much power. Now, it is impossible to locate the speakers on a good recording and I have that 3D soundstage I knew was possible but was MIA with the class D amps.
I'm sure the amps you are discussing here are much better than any D amp I've tried, but I have been happy with my system ever since I built that SET amp, and for me, that is what really matters.
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Medium Jim,
I don't necessarily disagree with everything you are saying but I find it curious that you can muster the energy to post so much stuff about something you have never heard. I'm not chugging the Kool-Aid but at least I went out and heard the amp in a good system, and compared it to an amp I was familiar with. Not scientific, but not total speculation.
Also, read my post about why I think this amp is not more popular. Some people will NEVER own a DIY design (lots of reasons) and I'm not even sure the commercial designs are on the market yet. Also, they are VERY expensive and I'm not sure many people could afford them regardless of their performance. In other words, they are not the perfect amp for everyone, but that's not an indictment on their quality or performance. The DIY and Mega-buck (Mola Mola) universe of potential customers is probably quite small. Also, $2K for an amp you have to build might be out of some folks' price range.
Just sayin...
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Jackman:
I would have loved to have been on the list to hear them, or hear them from someone near me. Neither was in the cards. I agree that most shy away from DIY, even the Ncores that pretty much come assembled sans the chassis and connections.
It will be interesting on how the commercial versions are received in the marketplace. I would think the mere fact that I'm posting would indicate that I do have a healthy curiosity about them and will leave it at that.
Jim
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Jackman - I forgot to mention I have an active sub as well for deep bass - 40hz crossover setting on the plate amp, but driven from amp high level outputs, using a cable converter with some kind of resistors inline to RCA inputs of a DEQ2496 and then to the sub plate amp. Lores are great down into the 40's where I have them positioned, and can go down to low 30's if closer to walls, but I have them away from walls for better soundstaging. I also prefer a little more output than they produce down low when closer to rear wall.
Dave - the problem with the Ncores for me is certainly not the speaker disappearing act or lack of 3D soundstage. That's what they bring in spades to my system. What I get from Ncore is all that "hifi" resolution while diminishing the nuanced emotional energies and the raw energy of live performances - also relevant to non-live reproduction. Example: with my Ampino, the first minute or so of Carrion on Fiona Apple's first album, I can hear very subtle variations in her vocal energy, and I can envision her next to the mic with her mouth slightly edging closer and further from the mic as she softly sings those lines. It's like the sounds are just barely escaping from her mouth and they might ebb away at any moment. It keeps me on the edge of my seat and I almost hold my breath to feel closer to hers.
With the Ncore, those same passages hold greater spatial resolution of the overall performance, but her voice doesn't have those same liminal, fleeting qualities. Her voice is there for all to hear.
Similarly, at the same time on that same track is an electric guitar lightly picking some chords in a way that plays of that liminal quality of her voice. It's there clearer with the Ncore, and set more clearly in the soundstage, but it doesn't "pop" with live electric guitar energy the way the Ampino portrays.
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Also, thanks guys for listening as I have tried to communicate my thoughts. In keeping with Dave's comment that class D often responds significantly to cabling and power supply tweeks, I'll PM Occam to learn more about his experiments along these lines with Ncore.
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Just a quick note as I'm mobile and not really allowed to post in this thread. :P
Long story short, when I decided to go the NCore route I didn't own them. Someone was kind enough to loan them to me so I could decide.
After that I purchased and sent them to an AC member and started to get PM's and emails. At that point I figured I'd lay my nuts on the line and cough up the money to purchase another pair while my amps were sent around the country so people could listen to them and decide if they wanted to move forward (like many have) or just be happy with what they have (which many have).
To me, I could really care less if you buy them or not as long as you're happy. Either way to listen to $2k amps and it cost you ~$30 is a pretty sweet deal IMO. :dunno:
I guess I'm surprised by some peoples comments and getting so worked up over all of this. You likey, you buy. You no likey, you no buy.
They and nothing else in this hobby is for everyone. Thank goodness!
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I have been happy with my system ever since I built that SET amp, and for me, that is what really matters.
Having written the last Tour Review of NCores (here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105310.msg1119295#msg1119295), I would heartily agree that a low-power SET with appropriate speakers has that special magic (or another man's "distortion") Ncores do not achieve by themselves.
On the other hand, a truly great high-sensitivity speaker is a very elusive thing, with different set of compromises. I see the NCores as excellent amplification choices for those with conventional speakers that simply require more power. When shopping for truly outstanding 200-300 watt amplifiers, one quickly realizes there aren't all that many, and they tend to be quite spendy.
NCores driven by a really nice tube preamp can be a stirring success IME, perfectly capable of achieving musical satisfaction. Is it end-all, be-all? Of course not, but if I didn't (luckily) have my current high-sensitivity setup, I would be seriously looking at the NCores myself.
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Thanks very much for the reminder, Jon. I do remember reading that review of yours and being intrigued. I've heard good things about that grounded grid pre, and your mods sound interesting. I'm not sure if I'm up to the task of that level of mods given it was almost all I could do to assemble the ncores. However, it's heartening to hear a good tube pre can bring the engagement and magic. I might have to try that next. Someone else here mentioned a little dot preamp being a good match. That might be a good first try, stopgap while considering more serious tube preamp options.
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May I suggest another DIY to mate with the Ncores, the Bottlehead Foreplay III. They show up every now and then on agon for a few hundred and are simply the best dollar for dollar line stage pre out there.
Jim
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Thanks!
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jim, while i disagree that professional audio journalists are unbiased as a class, i actually do agree w/much of what you say - hobbyists can have their own set of biases.
but, what i have seen, following the comments of those who have taken jason up on his generous offer, are, for the most part, comments from folks who don't have a "dog in this", as you say - they are simply hobbyists who auditioned something they didn't own. yes, quite a few people ended up buying the ncores after hearing them. but that doesn't mean they had any dog in this beforehand. and, there are some people on the fence as to whether they wanna buy them, and others who have no interest in buying them.
i am sure that, some time down the road, professional audio journalists will have their say; and i suspect that their reactions will be similar to the hobbyists - some will buy them, others will be on the fence, others won't want them.
doug s.
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May I suggest another DIY to mate with the Ncores, the Bottlehead Foreplay III. They show up every now and then on agon for a few hundred and are simply the best dollar for dollar line stage pre out there.
Jim
No longer available as a kit.
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doug s:
Probably so. It would have been nice if someone I knew had been one if the participants as I would understand their motivation with respect to the review they would have penned.
I have no doubt that they are wonderful amps based on the reviews. One day I will know if they might be for me.
Jim
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This thread has totally run its course.
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This thread has totally run its course.
Maybe, maybe not. I'm still a bottlehead, and they would have to sound better than what I already have, which will not be easy to do.
Jim
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jim, agreed that these are amps i also want to sample. but, i didn't get in on jason's offer because my present living situation is not conducive to doing a proper ewaluation. i can't even properly appreciate/ewaluate some of the amps and speakers i already own - there is simply not enough room to easily move things around. :o i hope to be moving in about a year; things should change then. meanwhile, at least the space, at ~18x38, is large enough so that what i have in place sounds good. :green:
doug s.
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jim, agreed that these are amps i also want to sample. but, i didn't get in on jason's offer because my present living situation is not conducive to doing a proper ewaluation. i can't even properly appreciate/ewaluate some of the amps and speakers i already own - there is simply not enough room to easily move things around. :o i hope to be moving in about a year; things should change then. meanwhile, at least the space, at ~18x38, is large enough so that what i have in place sounds good. :green:
doug s.
Doug:
I envy you, I only have a 16x15 room for listening...I have to think that anything that garners so much fuss has to either be the biggest con or is good...but good to one may not be to another...as you often say, ymmv.
Jim
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This thread has totally run its course.
Don't confuse a couple guys getting sidetracked with a thread running its course...unless you are the self-appointed arbiter of thread usefulness or vitality.
If you don't like the discussion, you have the option to stay out of it. As long as people play nice, and don"t break the rules or say things that may offend our more sensitive members, I hope this thread stays open. It has quickly become one of the most popular threads in the Ncore circle.
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No longer available as a kit.
That is why I pointed him to aGon to find one....there are two on their right now.
Jim
P.S. Eventhough the ones on aGon are already built, there is still a lot of room for modifications....
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........
I have no doubt that they are wonderful amps based on the reviews. One day I will know if they might be for me.
Jim
Its not for you. Leastwise if your present systems are any indication of your preferences.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=systems;area=browse;system=1723
System overview
A pair of VAC Marantz Model 9 Reissues with NOS Mullards XF2's and 1960's Amperex Gold Pin 6922 PQ's in the line stage; a 1961 McIntosh MX-110 Preamp/Tuner that has been serviced and realligned with some tweaks, a Marantz CDP 38 that has been highly modified by Ah! Tjoeb (has a pair of Siemens E188CC Pinch Waist tubes in the buffer stage; a pair of B&W ASW300 Subs; a pair of restored Magnepan MG 2.5rt's. I'm using AQ Gibralter Cables from the amps to the subs and Transparent Music Wave Super's from the subs to a special designed Hi Pass Module and then Kimber 8TC from there to the speakers. I have a pair of Morrow MA1's from the amps to the pre (great IC's at any price) and a Transparent Music Link + IC's from the CDP to the Pre.
I'd think your present system is an absolute hoot, a tremendously enjoyable, emotionally engaging, 'big' sound, with technicolor, better than real soundstaging. But given your present system [ this goes double for your 'Plan 2' smaller system ] with a change to a Ncore for power amplification is going to make you run out of the room. This is not a criticism of your present system, but rather an obvious observation. My personal issue with the Ncore 400 is its lack of 'warmth' and have spent substantial time dealing with that specific issue. You will find the Ncore a disaster when slotted in for your Marantz 9s or Dynaco 70.
After reading all of the amatuer reviews of the Ncore, if you need Steven Stone to tell you what a poor fit its would be in your system, you simply don't know your own system and preferences. The uber resolving Ncore is simply not your cuppa. YMWNV
Would you please stop crapping all over this thread, there is NOTHING for you here. Just enjoy your system(s) that you've obviously spend much time, effort and resources optimizing to your personal preferences.
FWIW,
Paul
PS - the Foreplay III isn't a particularly good choice as a front end for the Ncore, if one intends to preserve its very high S/N ratio. Its purported 90db measure is 20db lower that my tubed CAT SL-1 at the same 2v output, and I find the CAT's noise borderline.
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That is why I pointed him to aGon to find one....there are two on their right now.
Jim
P.S. Eventhough the ones on aGon are already built, there is still a lot of room for modifications....
Have you built one yourself?
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Good post, Paul. I still can't figure out why people feel the need to comment and speculate on the performance of the Ncore, and even which components would mesh with it, without ever having heard it. It's as bad as the clowns who argued about how great it sounded, and speculated about it being a game changer...before they even heard it.
Blindly speculating about how this amp sounds, without any basis in reality or direct experience is not useful. It amazes me that so many people who have never heard this amp are so willing to invest so much time talking about it, and arguing about it. That is just silly.
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Paul:
Wow, so much vitriol and anger. Sorry that I have hit a nerve. My system has many of the virtues you proclaimed it to have. While it is an amazingly good system it isn't the world stopper and I'm always looking...
The Bottlehead Foreplay is designed to be easily modified (as is the case with mine) and is dead quiet.
Please point out to where I have offered an opinion that is negative of the NCore within this thread? Yet you choose to diminish the idea of another AC Member whom I suggested to audition the Ncores, Steven Stone, who has over 30 years of experience writing reviews and is as fair as they come. BTW, he's also a hobbyist.
No I don't need anyone to tell me what I like or not, but it never hurts to get a full and fair concensus.
Again, accept my apologies if I have somehow offended you or your sensibilities.
Jim
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I will support Paul's post. The FP3 is quite noisy. I built one and it was unuseable with a Odyssey Khartago which has 32db of gain. The tube rush was just too much. I would suggest a high quality SS amp. I bet the W4S pre would be a great match.
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Good post, Paul. I still can't figure out why people feel the need to comment and speculate on the performance of the Ncore, and even which components would mesh with it, without ever having heard it. It's as bad as the clowns who argued about how great it sounded, and speculated about it being a game changer...before they even heard it.
Blindly speculating about how this amp sounds, without any basis in reality or direct experience is not useful. It amazes me that so many people who have never heard this amp are so willing to invest so much time talking about it, and arguing about it. That is just silly.
Now I know I have read that exact same comment before somewhere in this thread and in others in the ncore forum.....Oh, that's right, I wrote it, about 5 or 6 times.....and got nothing but noise in response....
If I didn't know better Jackman, I would swear you have been out behind the woodshed nipping on some kool-aid.....
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Jackman:
Isn't the point of any thread is to bring folks in? Isn't the point of the tour to spread the word? To limit it to only the very few who have heard them would be ridiculous. To offer opinions on how they sound would be crazy if you didn't actually hear them. To the best of my knowledge, I haven't commented on how they sound, only how other class d amps have.
Make the call to ban anyone who hasn't heard them from posting and I will honor it.
Jim
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Thanks guys I have a little better understanding of the amps general character now. In the near future I wil have a chance to compare the Arion HS 500 hybrid class "D" amps [ which recently replaced our custom Cyber 211 with NOS RCA tubes ] to the N-Core. Should be a learning experience and some fun to boot.
charles
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I don't want anyone banned! It's just hard for me to understand how you could devote so much energy to something you have never heard. Maybe it would be more useful to devote your time to hearing these amps. You did suggest the Foreplay preamp and I'm not sure I understand how you could do this without ever having heard the Ncore.
That's all, no big deal and I don't want to see you or anyone in this thread banned.
Thanks
J
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I don't want anyone banned! It's just hard for me to understand how you could devote so much energy to something you have never heard. Maybe it would be more useful to devote your time to hearing these amps. You did suggest the Foreplay preamp and I'm not sure I understand how you could do this without ever having heard the Ncore.
That's all, no big deal and I don't want to see you or anyone in this thread banned.
Thanks
J
Banned when not breaking any rules? I recommended the Bottlehead as it is an inexpensive preamp that I have used with several different amps and it has performed admirably with all. Moreover, with slight modifications is and can have a very black sound floor.
I will also hazzard to bet that more than half of those who are posting haven't heard the Ncores yet as well. But you are right, they probably are not going to be for me anyway....
Jim
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Jim,
Do you even read this stuff? I never said you or anyone should be banned. My only reference was in response to your post. Either way, I'm amazed you have so much to say about something you have never heard. Start another thread for speculators but I don't think you can contribute anything to this thread until you actually hear the Ncore.
Why don't you start your own thread for wild speculators who have never heard the Ncore. Heck, get your own circle, I'll even give you my vote if you promise to stay out of this thread. I promise to stay out of yours.
Cheers
Jack
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Thanks jack, but I already have two circles where everyone is welcome! I thought this was Jason's circle?
No problem, I will stop posting, but ask every other person who hasn't heard them to also stop posting.
Jim
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This isn't my circle and I don't even own the amp! You can do whatever you want as far as I am concerned, but numerous posts on an amp you have never heard seemed odd to me. I just started this thread for people who did not want to post in the main fanboy thread.
Technically, Jason started this thread when he kicked me out of th main thread. I just came up with the catchy name!
Cheers
Jack
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Personally, I think it's valuable to have a thread devoted to tour impressions only and another like this one that should be about listening impressions outside the tour context. And it should most certainly be as balanced as possible with attempts, and I do mean attempts only, to be objective and cite both pros and cons. No one can be completely objective, no matter their perspective, so why criticize people for subjectivity as long as they can give some context that helps us to compare our subjectivity to theirs?
I don't want Jim to stop posting either, but I agree that a large portion of his posts have been unnecessarily antagonistic and somewhat passive aggressive. Yes, challenging the opinions of others in a way that gives subtle digs at the amps in question, then at the end saying something like, "but believe me, I really want to give these a try and make up my mind"' strikes me as hollow and duplicitous. In a single message you can imply that you've already made up your mind and that you want to make up your mind. Hard to have it both ways, and most people can see through that shit. I would be willing to guess that nearly one third of this entire thread are messages like this from Jim and the verbal fencing that follows. There are precious few entries actually discussing the actual listening impressions of the amps.
As an example, I dare you to go back through the past several pages. Count the number of entries debating Jim's assertions verses the ones actually discussing my very real observations, pros and cons witnessed, and interest in tweaking ancillaries in my system to optimize the Ncore in my system.
Just sayin...
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And on that note, I have some updates for those interested.
I spent all last evening playing around and swapping tons of stuff in my system. I tried my kingrex preamp I just sold this morning, even hooked up my Onix SP3 using a special cable to be able to use it as a preamp. I swapped the Ampino back in and then back out. I made sure the amps had all been on and at idle for a while, so I wasn't comparing a cold amp to a warm one. I swapped interconnects and even played with which wall outlets which components were using.
Conclusions:
The Onix is really noisy as a preamp :roll: :lol:
The Ampino is not even close to the same league as the Ncore. It has a warmth and a liveness in the midrange, but it also accentuates the high frequencies, an overall uneven up frequency response and way more distortion. Ncore just destroyed it in overall smoothness, micro and macro detail, imaging and soundstage, balanced frequency response and all.
But Ncore still didn't have that magic midrange or quite the high frequency "sparkle". I was back where I started...
Then I swapped my copper interconnects made by Tuan here on AC (called Sweet Spot Reveal I think) over to Morrow MA2's. Keep in mind that I had bought these last fall and did extensive comparisons with the SSR's. With the Ampino, the Morrows had a tipped up frequency response and a thin sound compared to the SSR'S, which had more body and also much more micro dynamic nuance and subtlety. They were key to getting that "magic" performance in the midrange and live energy from the Ampino. Morrows just didn't have that magic, we're more analytical and thin, despite having more air to them.
Well, things have certainly changed now with the Ncores. That live energy and magic is back, with benefit of all the awesomeness of the Ncores.
Just goes to show that system synergies can be everything. Seemingly small changes can make a surprising differences. And components that you had discounted in thorough previous comparisons can suddenly completely change what they offer give other changes in the system. I have learned these lessons in the past, and they're what led me to keep the Morrow cables despite not really liking them. I'm really glad I did and that I had them on hand to try now.
Now, I'm not saying my search is over. I still might be interested in the right tube preamp eventually, or maybe going up the line in Morrow or even something else. But my toe is tapping again for the first time in a while, and that's plenty enough for today :thumb:
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I made my own signal cable (the original from Hypex was a mogami, which was replaced by Hypex with one Bruno designed) and noticed a bit more on top where some have had issues. Perhaps trying your own cable there may be beneficial. You need the correct molex plug and pins, along with a decent crimp tool. I also replaced the power feed, which is 18awg with 16awg (16awg is the largest wire that will fit in the JST connector). Again, you need JST plug and pins and a crimp tool. Together they will cost you about $2.00. I can pass along the molex part numbers if anyone is interested.
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Posted by genjamon: "Well, things have certainly changed now with the Ncores. That live energy and magic is back, with benefit of all the awesomeness of the Ncores.
Just goes to show that system synergies can be everything. Seemingly small changes can make a surprising differences. And components that you had discounted in thorough previous comparisons can suddenly completely change what they offer give other changes in the system. I have learned these lessons in the past, and they're what led me to keep the Morrow cables despite not really liking them. I'm really glad I did and that I had them on hand to try now."
This is exactly what I and several others have tried to explain and have been dismissed as fanboys.
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I just want to say that I never thought the posts over on the tour thread were too fanboyish. I thought a number of the offered significant amounts of context for their impressions and weren't saying the Ncore were the best amps ever. Not all of them, by any means, but quite a few and most of those that were more elaborate in their reviews. Those were the ones that motivated me to put my cash down and give Ncore a try without benefit of hearing them first, not the ones that were clearly fanboys saying Ncore is be best ever.
And in my experience, you might have to play with things a good bit for Ncore to really strut its stuff in your system. I feel like I'm now beginning to reach that stage, and have many more areas to explore before I'm done. And it's certainly true that Ncore's strengths may not be what you need given your preferences and system goals. I really doubt Ncore will extinguish all curiosity for me to try new things, and I would be surprised if there was ever a product in this category that came along and motivated all of us to give up our audiophilia nervosa. Hobby addiction doesn't work like that!
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And on that note, I have some updates for those interested.
I spent all last evening playing around and swapping tons of stuff in my system. I tried my kingrex preamp I just sold this morning, even hooked up my Onix SP3 using a special cable to be able to use it as a preamp. I swapped the Ampino back in and then back out. I made sure the amps had all been on and at idle for a while, so I wasn't comparing a cold amp to a warm one. I swapped interconnects and even played with which wall outlets which components were using.
Conclusions:
The Onix is really noisy as a preamp :roll: :lol:
The Ampino is not even close to the same league as the Ncore. It has a warmth and a liveness in the midrange, but it also accentuates the high frequencies, an overall uneven up frequency response and way more distortion. Ncore just destroyed it in overall smoothness, micro and macro detail, imaging and soundstage, balanced frequency response and all.
But Ncore still didn't have that magic midrange or quite the high frequency "sparkle". I was back where I started...
Then I swapped my copper interconnects made by Tuan here on AC (called Sweet Spot Reveal I think) over to Morrow MA2's. Keep in mind that I had bought these last fall and did extensive comparisons with the SSR's. With the Ampino, the Morrows had a tipped up frequency response and a thin sound compared to the SSR'S, which had more body and also much more micro dynamic nuance and subtlety. They were key to getting that "magic" performance in the midrange and live energy from the Ampino. Morrows just didn't have that magic, we're more analytical and thin, despite having more air to them.
Well, things have certainly changed now with the Ncores. That live energy and magic is back, with benefit of all the awesomeness of the Ncores.
Just goes to show that system synergies can be everything. Seemingly small changes can make a surprising differences. And components that you had discounted in thorough previous comparisons can suddenly completely change what they offer give other changes in the system. I have learned these lessons in the past, and they're what led me to keep the Morrow cables despite not really liking them. I'm really glad I did and that I had them on hand to try now.
Now, I'm not saying my search is over. I still might be interested in the right tube preamp eventually, or maybe going up the line in Morrow or even something else. But my toe is tapping again for the first time in a while, and that's plenty enough for today :thumb:
I use balanced Morrow MA6 IC's with the Ncore amps and think they are a nice match.
George
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This is reposted from another forum (me) so I didn't have to type it again - the main point is the sensitivity I have found with the Ncores in terms of system componments. I was mixed about the results I was getting with digital, however when I connected my TT via PS Audio GCPH via balanced to Ncores, I was stunned. Obviously I have some more tweaking with cables etc to get the digital side to a similar point but I'm much closer. Recently I moved my Teddydac back, it seems to have a better synergy with the system with Ncores. Anyway -
"Well - now that the amps have had time to warm up - settlle in - and after a couple of cheeky rums - I have this to say:
Digital front end - obviously needs some work
Vinyl front end - the experience of having firstly Yello (touch) followed by Kraftwerk (The Mix) at some considerable volume was an absolute stunner. Sitting in the living room with a wall of sound so pure and involving - and noticing that the curtains behind the ML1+ speakers were dancing to the music like they were puppets on strings. I walked outside to hear the whole house reverberating like a car with a massive sound system - all the windows were rattling.
The sound is not clinical, its accurate and not a trace of distortion, it is really like a straight wire from the stylus to the speakers. Power in absolutely epic proportions, these make the Bel Canto REF1000's I had soound weedy by comparison. I ran out of braveness in finding the point at which something would give, just clean involving pure musical power.
So that is tonights session over, anyone in the general vicinity of the F3 onramp probably would have got a dose, now I'll settle down to a couple of weeks of critical listening and see if I can lift my digital front end to a similar level.
The analogue specs are Ortofon M2 black via PS Audio via balanced into Plinius Pre then balanced into Ncore. The digital is SBT via SM via AudioGD REF5.2 via a long (3M) set of audioquest single ended RCA (into Plinius et al).
My gut feel is that these are ruthlessly revealing of source, no sauce with that sound, just added power. The sound coming from the turntable is liquid, powerful, and massive soundstage.
Rant off - time to give the neighbours a break and let my daughters get some sleep.
AJ"
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No I don't need anyone to tell me what I like or not, but it never hurts to get a full and fair concensus.
Exactly why I started the tour. Also, I'm sorry but I'd rather listen to 35+ people that I've sent it to then any reviewer.
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Exactly why I started the tour. Also, I'm sorry but I'd rather listen to 35+ people that I've sent it to then any reviewer.
Okay....understood loud and clear.
Jim
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Exactly why I started the tour. Also, I'm sorry but I'd rather listen to 35+ people that I've sent it to then any reviewer.
AMEN!!!
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I find it rather telling that the powers that be are afraid of a review by someone who does it for a living. If it truly was as advertised, I would want said review, hobbyist or not!
Jim
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I find it rather telling that the powers that be are afraid of a review by someone who does it for a living. If it truly was as advertised, I would want said review, hobbyist or not!
Jim
Who are you referring to? Tell your favorite reviewer to get a pair and get reviewing. NOBODY is holding them back.
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I find it rather telling that the powers that be are afraid of a review by someone who does it for a living. If it truly was as advertised, I would want said review, hobbyist or not!
Jim
That makes no sense at all, Jim. The NCore 400 is a DIY module, reviewers don't generally review DIY stuff. No doubt there will be plenty of reviews of the Mola Mola and OEM versions in time. And, there must now be dozens of people who have heard the NCore now on Jason's tour, so it's not like there wasn't the opportunity for people that were interested.
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Who are you referring to? Tell your favorite reviewer to get a pair and get reviewing. NOBODY is holding them back.
Not my favorite reviewer, rather he is an AC member in good standing. It just makes sense to utilize his expertise if he would be willing.
Jim
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Not my favorite reviewer, rather he is an AC member in good standing. It just makes sense to utilize his expertise if he would be willing.
Jim
Well, that's up to him not any of us but it still makes no sense to me
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I find it rather telling that the powers that be are afraid of a review by someone who does it for a living. If it truly was as advertised, I would want said review, hobbyist or not!
Exactly who are the powers that be? Jan-Peter and Bruno at Hypex? I'm certain that they would happily sell a pair to Steven Stone or any other reviewer who would like a pair. Perhaps you missed the fact that Hypex will not sell the NC400's to OEM's, so why would someone who makes a living reviewing audio gear spend a lot of time on a DYI direct only product, it makes no sense at all. If Steven Stone wants to review a pair, I'll lend him mine, granted it's a long drive but we live in the same state at least. :)
I'm guessing you have no idea how much time and effort reviewers put into even a basic review, it's not just a couple hours of listening and a quick write up, at least it's not for me and I don't make squat if I write something up, which happens from time to time.
I am 100% certain that when the commercial products based on the NC1200's hit the market there will be plenty of professional reviews. What is more relevant, the opinion of a few guys who are trying them on a system with gear that most cannot afford to own, or 35+ regular folks who have systems similar to what we might have. If none of the folks who have posted about the tour amps or the guys who have bought them unheard have systems that are similar to your own, then no, they are likely not relevant.
What is really telling is your seeming inability to accept that fact the everyone likes something different, it's not a fucking conspiracy. </rant-off>
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This constant back and forth bickering of the Ncores is going on in another hobby of mine at the moment. I also enjoy metal detecting for a summertime hobby. Where most detectors ae $1000 or less, one company brought out one last month costing $2500.
The people that has used one or bought one says that it's revoluntionary for treasue hunting. The one's that have not tried it or cannot afford it is skeptical and bad mouthing it. Deja vu?
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First off, Jason is an amazing individual. I can say this without ever meeting him personally, to be so generous to send out his amps all across the nation speaks for itself.
Many here have questioned my motivations for posting, yes I have reservations about Class D based on what many who build amps for a living have said about the limitations of the technology. Yet, I am still open minded and believe that were there is smoke there may be fire and this cued my interest in them.
I was and am sincere when I reasoned that a Professional Reviewer would be beneficial and this was met with alarming ire. There was no intent on my part to lessen the reviews by those who have heard the amps and have taken the time to give their thoughts on them, rather a validation. Yes, I am acutely aware of the time, energy and efforts required for a professional review.
Several in this circle made it personal and lost their objectivity and demeanor, one to the point of swearing and another who wrote an impish poem.
I love music and find it to be something that calms, soothes, provokes thought, insight and other endearing qualities, but it is only Stereo and not life or death. Maybe I am a bit much at times, but my interest in this hobby is as real and true as anyone here, even if a select few choose to believe otherwise.
Speculation is also a part of this hobby, especially since much of it is subjective and cannot be easily quantified, or is imbued in pure logic. It is personal and hits the hearts of all of us.
Jim
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More bickering in the Ncore Impressions thread. Someone posted less than positive comments about the amp and the usual suspects jumped all over him. It seems that nothing less than unanimous approval of this amp will be allowed in the main thread. Maybe it's time to revive the Kool Aid thread. A place where people can speak freely without being attacked for sharing their impressions, positive and negative. We don't discriminate around here or play favorites.
Looking for listening impressions, not comments from people who get their info from "experts" or reviewers. I'll ignore anyone who has not actually heard the amps. For the record, I'm a fan and plan to buy and build a set sometime soon. They are exceptionally good sounding and a great value at thieir current price (kits). As much as I like them, I'm not drinking any Kool Aid for anyone...not unless you have some Blue Raspberry. That's some tasty stuff!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=65982)
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Jack man that just in not true. Only one person said something and it was quite profound. You are starting to be an antagonist about Ncore on multiple threads. Better to be thought a fool than open mouth and remove all doubt. Come on now :D
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More bickering in the Ncore Impressions thread. Someone posted less than positive comments about the amp and the usual suspects jumped all over him. It seems that nothing less than unanimous approval of this amp will be allowed in the main thread. Maybe it's time to revive the Kool Aid thread. A place where people can speak freely without being attacked for sharing their impressions, positive and negative. We don't discriminate around here or play favorites.
Looking for listening impressions, not comments from people who get their info from "experts" or reviewers. I'll ignore anyone who has not actually heard the amps. For the record, I'm a fan and plan to buy and build a set sometime soon. They are exceptionally good sounding and a great value at thieir current price (kits). As much as I like them, I'm not drinking any Kool Aid for anyone...not unless you have some Blue Raspberry. That's some tasty stuff!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=65982)
with all due respect, jack, having been following the other thread, i think you are a mite over-sensitive to this. i don't think ozarktom posted anything negative about the ncores, and i don't think cab's reaction to tom's experience is anything fanboy-like. tom's experience seems clearly related to what is obviously his unique dirty power issue. and all the following comments seem more addressed to that, then anything else. including cab's comments - cab is simply stating his opinion (and one in which i cooncur), that, regarding the power issues tom is having, perhaps tom needs to better address it in regards to how it is affecting his other equipment. i see nothing either unreasonable or fanboyish in this statement...
ymmv,
doug s.,
no dog (or ears, yet), in this "fight"
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Jack man that just in not true. Only one person said something and it was quite profound. You are starting to be an antagonist about Ncore on multiple threads. Better to be thought a fool than open mouth and remove all doubt. Come on now :D
Thanks for the insult. This is the non-Kool-Aid drinking Fanboy thread, I think you are in the wrong place. At least Cab and his buddy RClark had the good sense to stay out of this thread. Also, I think you need to look up the definition of "profound". :scratch:
Cheers,
Jack
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with all due respect, jack, having been following the other thread, i think you are a mite over-sensitive to this. i don't think ozarktom posted anything negative about the ncores, and i don't think cab's reaction to tom's experience is anything fanboy-like. tom's experience seems clearly related to what is obviously his unique dirty power issue. and all the following comments seem more addressed to that, then anything else. including cab's comments - cab is simply stating his opinion (and one in which i cooncur), that, regarding the power issues tom is having, perhaps tom needs to better address it in regards to how it is affecting his other equipment. i see nothing either unreasonable or fanboyish in this statement...
ymmv,
doug s.,
no dog (or ears, yet), in this "fight"
You are probably right. I'll stay out of the other thread. Thanks! :thumb:
J
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with all due respect, jack, having been following the other thread, i think you are a mite over-sensitive to this. i don't think ozarktom posted anything negative about the ncores, and i don't think cab's reaction to tom's experience is anything fanboy-like. tom's experience seems clearly related to what is obviously his unique dirty power issue. and all the following comments seem more addressed to that, then anything else. including cab's comments - cab is simply stating his opinion (and one in which i cooncur), that, regarding the power issues tom is having, perhaps tom needs to better address it in regards to how it is affecting his other equipment. i see nothing either unreasonable or fanboyish in this statement...
ymmv,
doug s.,
no dog (or ears, yet), in this "fight"
Refreshing insights Doug,,, and a very positive one at that. And even better, Jack agrees. It's all good guys. :thumb:
Cheers,
Robin
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Jackman I am truly sorry if I insulted you, that was not my intent but I see how easily it could be taken as one, I'm sorry. My thought was, sometimes it is just better not to say anything.
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No worries PTB, I am sorry if my comments in the other thread and this one were insensitive. The comments posted didn't warrant my Kool-Aid comment or irritating Kool Aid guy picture. My intention was to point out that people should be able to post less than positive opinions without being questioned, as long as they are legitimate and not intentionally negative. There are some people (not you, and not JTWrace, you guys are cool) who seem to be acting as self appointed NCore evangelists. They feel the need to jump in every time anything remotely negative is brought up about the amp and question the poster.
I'm not going to name names but there is one guy in particular who has devoted himself, nearly 100%, to questioning anyone who posts anything even remotely negative about this amp. This sort of thing really gets under my skin. Sorry for unfairly taking it out on you. You're a good guy and I enjoy your posts.
Cheers,
J
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I'm not so sure that "dirty power" is the only issue with the last review. There are some audiophiles who find that most all higher power amps do not have the same magic as a lower powered amp with matching speakers, regardless of topology. That'sone of the reason we have a Low Wattage circle to begin with. :thumb:
There does seem to be a few who are overly sensitive to comments regarding these amps. This is a subjective hobby after all, and one persons nirvana is another idea of bad sound. So, as long as opinions don't cross into personal attacks, who cares if any piece of audio gear is praised or trashed?
As far as Tom's comments about playback is concerned, I think again that it is very subjective, based on a whole host of issues (room interaction, speakers, source, you name it). Before using the TBI amps, I always thought class D was not up to par compared with a good class A amp. I have since changed that opinion, as the class D TBI amp sounds a lot like a good tube SET, and it does a great job with depth and placement. No reason to think the Ncore could not also provide that with the right setup. For most folks, it seems to have provided just what the doctor ordered.
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I'm not so sure that "dirty power" is the only issue with the last review. There are some audiophiles who find that most all higher power amps do not have the same magic as a lower powered amp with matching speakers, regardless of topology. That'sone of the reason we have a Low Wattage circle to begin with. :thumb:
A lot of that has to do with what Pass calls the "first watt"....most amps spend most of their time outputting less than 1 watt...it is easier to get low distortion at low power than it is to get low distortion across the full power band of a high power amp.
This is one thing the ncore does better than almost all amps: its distortion is below the noise floor out to almost 50 watts, which is better than nearly all low power amps, and not much higher out to full power.
There does seem to be a few who are overly sensitive to comments regarding these amps. This is a subjective hobby after all, and one persons nirvana is another idea of bad sound. So, as long as opinions don't cross into personal attacks, who cares if any piece of audio gear is praised or trashed?
Indeed. Posing questions, stating opinion, etc., shouldn't bother anyone. Haters gonna hate...
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Hey Freo, I find that pretty interesting since I will get to experience the "set like" sound, and apparently at a very high level of quality. I'm going to demo it on my less taxing monitors.
Since we can all agree that class d has arrived, that brings me to a question. It wasn't so obvious before that SS amps would ever be accepted at the table, and now you have people such as yourself, and Tom, saying things like, "never need another tube amp again", etc. And the Ncore, for example, caused many, many people to sell their very expensive tube amps (and high end SS), which is pretty impressive.
However, we are seeing that the tube preamp is still a mainstay in these systems. Do you think it is also a matter of time now before the SS preamp is given the same respect as a top line tube preamp? I understand Mola Mola includes a preamp. I wonder how it will rate.
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Hey Freo, I find that pretty interesting since I will get to experience the "set like" sound, and apparently at a very high level of quality. I'm going to demo it on my less taxing monitors.
Since we can all agree that class d has arrived, that brings me to a question. It wasn't so obvious before that SS amps would ever be accepted at the table, and now you have people such as yourself, and Tom, saying things like, "never need another tube amp again", etc. And the Ncore, for example, caused many, many people to sell their very expensive tube amps (and high end SS), which is pretty impressive.
However, we are seeing that the tube preamp is still a mainstay in these systems. Do you think it is also a matter of time now before the SS preamp is given the same respect as a top line tube preamp? I understand Mola Mola includes a preamp. I wonder how it will rate.
Hang on, mate! I did not say I would never own a tube amp again. :lol: In fact, I'm in the middle of putting together a mono block pair of tube amps with 12SN7 input and 1625 output. I also own a couple of Class A solid state amps I intend to keep long term. Now, having said that, the TBI amps will get frequent usage with the audio only setup. 8)
IMHO, I think tubes will remain in vogue for some time to come. So far, the majority of the subjectively best sounding source electronics seems to be from tubes (especially with digital). Remember, source components are are all generally Class A topologies, and many folks still do not like Op Amps for preamp usage.
Tubes and the latest Class D seem to be an excellent match.
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I use one of the tube "character" inserts on a Metric Halo LIO-8 and it is a great match direct to the NCores (IMO).
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Hang on, mate! I did not say I would never own a tube amp again. :lol: In fact, I'm in the middle of putting together a mono block pair of tube amps with 12SN7 input and 1625 output. I also own a couple of Class A solid state amps I intend to keep long term. Now, having said that, the TBI amps will get frequent usage with the audio only setup. 8)
IMHO, I think tubes will remain in vogue for some time to come. So far, the majority of the subjectively best sounding source electronics seems to be from tubes (especially with digital). Remember, source components are are all generally Class A topologies, and many folks still do not like Op Amps for preamp usage.
Tubes and the latest Class D seem to be an excellent match.
I might end up taking Doug S's suggestion to try out a Melos.
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:scratch:
Well, I thought I had given the Ncores a great review, I never knew all of this would break-out. Like I said, these are the best 200 WPC amps that I have ever heard. Nothing else comes close to it IMHO.
It is hard imagine why anyone here would believe that any amp is perfect, when we have so imperfect playback sources, speakers, and cables. I have a hunch that Bruno is still researching on how to improve the Ncores, and I am sure he will do it.
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:scratch:
Well, I thought I had given the Ncores a great review, I never knew all of this would break-out. Like I said, these are the best 200 WPC amps that I have ever heard. Nothing else comes close to it IMHO.
It is hard imagine why anyone here would believe that any amp is perfect, when we have so imperfect playback sources, speakers, and cables. I have a hunch that Bruno is still researching on how to improve the Ncores, and I am sure he will do it.
No worries, Tom. You gave an excellent review. I still want to audition them with the Legacy Signature III's.
No product is perfect, as we all have some amount of subjective bias.
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Before using the TBI amps, I always thought class D was not up to par compared with a good class A amp. I have since changed that opinion, as the class D TBI amp sounds a lot like a good tube SET, and it does a great job with depth and placement. No reason to think the Ncore could not also provide that with the right setup. For most folks, it seems to have provided just what the doctor ordered.
It should be noted that the TBI is based on a $8 chip made for televisions...
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It should be noted that the TBI is based on a $8 chip made for televisions...
That is interesting, but the results speak for themselves. Mr. Plummer was quite ingenious regarding the implementation.
Come to think of it, look at the parts compliment of ANY class D amp compared to, say a Pass Labs XA 30.5
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Tom the reason I pointed it out is because if that was your experience then you truly did not get anything out if the amp. Had to leave the room after 5 minutes? Definitely not the
Ncore. Your experience was unique.
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I use one of the tube "character" inserts on a Metric Halo LIO-8 and it is a great match direct to the NCores (IMO).
That works too. :thumb:
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Tom the reason I pointed it out is because if that was your experience then you truly did not get anything out if the amp. Had to leave the room after 5 minutes? Definitely not the
Ncore. Your experience was unique.
You are 100% right, not the Ncores fault. I would say the Ncores was so revealing that it was just telling me how dirty my AC was.
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What do you think makes it so bad out there? It's nice living in the PNW, where we have lots of good constant power.
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So far, the majority of the subjectively best sounding source electronics seems to be from tubes (especially with digital). Remember, source components are are all generally Class A topologies, and many folks still do not like Op Amps for preamp usage.
Tubes and the latest Class D seem to be an excellent match.
Tubes are a far better option for voltage amplification vs SS, this is difficult if not impossible to dispute. It is the power buffer or impedance matching with the speaker where the playing field is a lot more level. For higher power applications I would favor a hybrid design like the Moskido topology where the Aikido tube input section does all the voltage amplification and it runs through a Mosfet buffer with zero gain for the output section.
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What do you think makes it so bad out there? It's nice living in the PNW, where we have lots of good constant power.
Dunno, wish I knew. This has been going on for nearly 30 years. I live in a small podunk town here in the Ozarks.
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Tubes are a far better option for voltage amplification vs SS, this is difficult if not impossible to dispute. It is the power buffer or impedance matching with the speaker where the playing field is a lot more level. For higher power applications I would favor a hybrid design like the Moskido topology where the Aikido tube input section does all the voltage amplification and it runs through a Mosfet buffer with zero gain for the output section.
I would llike to try next the Rogue Audio Hydra. That is Bruno's Hypex UCD module with a tube front in and mosfet outputs for $2950.
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I might end up taking Doug S's suggestion to try out a Melos.
i think my melos may have finally met its match. not sure, as i would need to check it out in my own system. but since the purity audio preamp i heard costs $15k, i don't think it is gonna happen any time soon. :lol:
doug s.
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Are you using the Melos GK-1? I sold a lot of those back in the days.
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Doug, those Purity preamps are visually beautiful. I believe the full SE version is around $20,000. There's a review of them here. Are you using the Melos right now? Or is that back in there with your endless stacks of gear? :thumb:
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the melos ma333r has been a mainstay in my system for many years. it was modded by m.a.r., including a tube wolume pot designed by mark porzilli, to replace his excellent ldr photentiometer, which was fantastic, but extremely problematic; wery sensitive to shipping damage. when i bought my ma333r, the p.o. had already replaced the photentiometer pot w/the less transparent alps pots that melos started using before they went under. the pre was great then, but the mods, and then the later addition of the tube pot made it even better. mark has said he is going to re-open a repair/upgrade shop; but it must have been pushed to the back burner, as it should have happened last year. i will certainly send mine out for his latest tweaks if it ever happens.
the purity reference starts at $10k, and goes up to $30k, for the ultra gt w/silver autoformer upgrade. while they certainly look nice, it is the sound that makes it special, imo. checking the model i am familiar with, it is the silver statement, which i believe retails for $20k, not $15k.
re: my "endless stacks of gear", it is mostly tuna. :lol:
doug s.
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I remember you sending me a link for one, was about $500. Kind of mad I didn't grab it. Are they decent enough stock?
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I remember you sending me a link for one, was about $500. Kind of mad I didn't grab it. Are they decent enough stock?
the link i sent you, iirc, was an sha-1 - an extremely simple headphone amp (that still garners great reviews, if you are into headfones), and a line stage w/3 inputs. (some sha-1's had less.) yes, it is still an excellent piece. it's similar to the more versatile sha-gold-r which offers passive or active, multiple inputs, remote and balance controls. the sha-gold-r's can go for ~$600-$1200, depending on condition, upgrades, etc. they are all worth it, imo, even stock. mine was stock and i enjoyed it for a couple years before initial upgrades. and the first one i ever heard - a melos sha-gold-r - was excellent stock.
the sha-gold-r is a lot like mine, except the ma333r is fully dual mono, and the dual transformers are housed in a separate chassis, w/two umbilical cords to connect to the main pre... (hearing an sha-gold-r in a store is what made me want to audition a melos in my home. and a dealer who sold cary, audible illusions and rogue - other pre's i was considering at the time - told me he used to sell melos before they went under, and that if i could find a used sha-gold, it would be better than anything he could sell me from these companies. i had two of those three in my home and they sounded mid-fi compared to the melos i finally ended up with.) older ma333's w/o remote are also out there... i have seen them adwertized for anywhere between $1k to ~$2.5k; again, depending on condition, upgrades, whether or not single-ended or balanced. i actually had a balanced wersion initially, but when i got the tube wolume pot upgrade, i had it paid for (was $700) by a guy who had a single-ended board, and wanted a balanced board. i was happy to go single ended, as i don't run balanced inputs (i still have a balanced out), and the ma333 balanced has 3 inputs + 2 tape loops, vs the single-ended unit w/6 inputs plus 2 tape loops. i like having the additional inputs.
doug s.
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What is the phase response of the NC400? (for example the ICE amp datasheets disclose plots of the phase response)
With a bandwidth of 50kHz set by the LC filter required for reconstruction and filtering of the switching noise, it seems there should be moderate phase and/or group delay at treble frequencies
In theory, one could equalize out the phase response if using an equalizer (I have Audyssey so I believe that would fix the phase of the NC400), but the group delay would not get fixed
The phase and/or group delay misalignments at treble frequencies would result in cymbals not having those long decays. . . I know a few people have mentioned that on this thread so just speculating out loud here if that is an issue?
And also wondering if that could be partially fixed by a time-domain equalizer like Audyssey?
Any thoughts?
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And on that note, I have some updates for those interested.
Then I swapped my copper interconnects made by Tuan here on AC (called Sweet Spot Reveal I think) over to Morrow MA2's. Keep in mind that I had bought these last fall and did extensive comparisons with the SSR's. With the Ampino, the Morrows had a tipped up frequency response and a thin sound compared to the SSR'S, which had more body and also much more micro dynamic nuance and subtlety. They were key to getting that "magic" performance in the midrange and live energy from the Ampino. Morrows just didn't have that magic, we're more analytical and thin, despite having more air to them.
Well, things have certainly changed now with the Ncores. That live energy and magic is back, with benefit of all the awesomeness of the Ncores.
Just goes to show that system synergies can be everything. Seemingly small changes can make a surprising differences. And components that you had discounted in thorough previous comparisons can suddenly completely change what they offer give other changes in the system. I have learned these lessons in the past, and they're what led me to keep the Morrow cables despite not really liking them. I'm really glad I did and that I had them on hand to try now.
Now, I'm not saying my search is over. I still might be interested in the right tube preamp eventually, or maybe going up the line in Morrow or even something else. But my toe is tapping again for the first time in a while, and that's plenty enough for today :thumb:
Thanks for the honest feedback...I totally believe that "Synergy" is key! What may work for one component doesn't always work for another! I am glad that you found the right use for the Morrows even though they relegated my SSRs to the back burner. :thumb:
Tuan