[OzarkTom]

This constant back and forth bickering of the Ncores is going on in another hobby of mine at the moment. I also enjoy metal detecting for a summertime hobby. Where most detectors ae $1000 or less, one company brought out one last month costing $2500.

The people that has used one or bought one says that it's revoluntionary for treasue hunting. The one's that have not tried it or cannot afford it is skeptical and bad mouthing it. Deja vu?

[medium jim]

First off, Jason is an amazing individual.  I can say this without ever meeting him personally, to be so generous to send out his amps all across the nation speaks for itself. 

Many here have questioned my motivations for posting, yes I have reservations about Class D based on what many who build amps for a living have said about the limitations of the technology.  Yet, I am still open minded and believe that were there is smoke there may be fire and this cued my interest in them. 

I was and am sincere when I reasoned that a Professional Reviewer would be beneficial and this was met with alarming ire.  There was no intent on my part to lessen the reviews by those who have heard the amps and have taken the time to give their thoughts on them, rather a validation.  Yes, I am acutely aware of the time, energy and efforts required for a professional review.

Several in this circle made it personal and lost their objectivity and demeanor, one to the point of swearing and another who wrote an impish poem.

I love music and find it to be something that calms, soothes, provokes thought, insight and other endearing qualities, but it is only Stereo and not life or death.   Maybe I am a bit much at times, but my interest in this hobby is as real and true as anyone here, even if a select few choose to believe otherwise.   

Speculation is also a part of this hobby, especially since much of it is subjective and cannot be easily quantified, or is imbued in pure logic.  It is personal and hits the hearts of all of us.

Jim

[jackman]

More bickering in the Ncore Impressions thread.  Someone posted less than positive comments about the amp and the usual suspects jumped all over him.  It seems that nothing less than unanimous approval of this amp will be allowed in the main thread.  Maybe it's time to revive the Kool Aid thread.  A place where people can speak freely without being attacked for sharing their impressions, positive and negative.  We don't discriminate around here or play favorites. 

Looking for listening impressions, not comments from people who get their info from "experts" or reviewers.  I'll ignore anyone who has not actually heard the amps.  For the record, I'm a fan and plan to buy and build a set sometime soon.  They are exceptionally good sounding and a great value at thieir current price (kits).  As much as I like them, I'm not drinking any Kool Aid for anyone...not unless you have some Blue Raspberry.  That's some tasty stuff!

[playntheblues]

Jack man that just in not true.  Only one person said something and it was quite profound.  You are starting to be an antagonist about Ncore on multiple threads.  Better to be thought a fool than open mouth and remove all doubt.  Come on now   

[doug s.]

More bickering in the Ncore Impressions thread.  Someone posted less than positive comments about the amp and the usual suspects jumped all over him.  It seems that nothing less than unanimous approval of this amp will be allowed in the main thread.  Maybe it's time to revive the Kool Aid thread.  A place where people can speak freely without being attacked for sharing their impressions, positive and negative.  We don't discriminate around here or play favorites. 

Looking for listening impressions, not comments from people who get their info from "experts" or reviewers.  I'll ignore anyone who has not actually heard the amps.  For the record, I'm a fan and plan to buy and build a set sometime soon.  They are exceptionally good sounding and a great value at thieir current price (kits).  As much as I like them, I'm not drinking any Kool Aid for anyone...not unless you have some Blue Raspberry.  That's some tasty stuff!

with all due respect, jack, having been following the other thread, i think you are a mite over-sensitive to this.  i don't think ozarktom posted anything negative about the ncores, and i don't think cab's reaction to tom's experience is anything fanboy-like.  tom's experience seems clearly related to what is obviously his unique dirty power issue.  and all the following comments seem more addressed to that, then anything else.  including cab's comments - cab is simply stating his opinion (and one in which i cooncur), that, regarding the power issues tom is having, perhaps tom needs to better address it in regards to how it is affecting his other equipment.  i see nothing either unreasonable or fanboyish in this statement...

ymmv,

doug s.,
no dog (or ears, yet), in this "fight"

[jackman]

Jack man that just in not true.  Only one person said something and it was quite profound.  You are starting to be an antagonist about Ncore on multiple threads.  Better to be thought a fool than open mouth and remove all doubt.  Come on now   

Thanks for the insult.  This is the non-Kool-Aid drinking Fanboy thread, I think you are in the wrong place.  At least Cab and his buddy RClark had the good sense to stay out of this thread.  Also, I think you need to look up the definition of "profound".   

Cheers,

Jack

[jackman]

with all due respect, jack, having been following the other thread, i think you are a mite over-sensitive to this.  i don't think ozarktom posted anything negative about the ncores, and i don't think cab's reaction to tom's experience is anything fanboy-like.  tom's experience seems clearly related to what is obviously his unique dirty power issue.  and all the following comments seem more addressed to that, then anything else.  including cab's comments - cab is simply stating his opinion (and one in which i cooncur), that, regarding the power issues tom is having, perhaps tom needs to better address it in regards to how it is affecting his other equipment.  i see nothing either unreasonable or fanboyish in this statement...

ymmv,

doug s.,
no dog (or ears, yet), in this "fight"

You are probably right.  I'll stay out of the other thread.  Thanks!   

J

[satfrat]

with all due respect, jack, having been following the other thread, i think you are a mite over-sensitive to this.  i don't think ozarktom posted anything negative about the ncores, and i don't think cab's reaction to tom's experience is anything fanboy-like.  tom's experience seems clearly related to what is obviously his unique dirty power issue.  and all the following comments seem more addressed to that, then anything else.  including cab's comments - cab is simply stating his opinion (and one in which i cooncur), that, regarding the power issues tom is having, perhaps tom needs to better address it in regards to how it is affecting his other equipment.  i see nothing either unreasonable or fanboyish in this statement...

ymmv,

doug s.,
no dog (or ears, yet), in this "fight"

Refreshing insights Doug,,, and a very positive one at that. And even better, Jack agrees. It's all good guys. 

Cheers,
Robin

[playntheblues]

Jackman I am truly sorry if I insulted you, that was not my intent but I see how easily it could be taken as one, I'm sorry.  My thought was, sometimes it is just better not to say anything.

[jackman]

No worries PTB, I am sorry if my comments in the other thread and this one were insensitive.  The comments posted didn't warrant my Kool-Aid comment or irritating Kool Aid guy picture.  My intention was to point out that people should be able to post less than positive opinions without being questioned, as long as they are legitimate and not intentionally negative.  There are some people (not you, and not JTWrace, you guys are cool) who seem to be acting as self appointed NCore evangelists.  They feel the need to jump in every time anything remotely negative is brought up about the amp and question the poster. 

I'm not going to name names but there is one guy in particular who has devoted himself, nearly 100%, to questioning anyone who posts anything even remotely negative about this amp.  This sort of thing really gets under my skin.  Sorry for unfairly taking it out on you.  You're a good guy and I enjoy your posts.

Cheers,

J

[Freo-1]

I'm not so sure that "dirty power" is the only issue with the last review.  There are some audiophiles who find that most all higher power amps do not have the same magic as a lower powered amp with matching speakers, regardless of topology.  That'sone of the reason we have a Low Wattage circle to begin with.   

There does seem to be a few who are overly sensitive to comments regarding these amps.  This is a subjective hobby after all, and one persons nirvana is another idea of bad sound.  So, as long as opinions don't cross into personal attacks, who cares if any piece of audio gear is praised or trashed?   
 
As far as Tom's comments about playback is concerned, I think again that it is very subjective, based on a whole host of issues (room interaction, speakers, source, you name it).  Before using the TBI amps, I always thought class D was not up to par compared with a good class A amp.  I have since changed that opinion, as the class D TBI amp sounds a lot like a good tube SET, and it does a great job with depth and placement.  No reason to think the Ncore could not also provide that with the right setup.  For most folks, it seems to have provided just what the doctor ordered.
 

[cab]

I'm not so sure that "dirty power" is the only issue with the last review.  There are some audiophiles who find that most all higher power amps do not have the same magic as a lower powered amp with matching speakers, regardless of topology.  That'sone of the reason we have a Low Wattage circle to begin with.   

A lot of that has to do with what Pass calls the "first watt"....most amps spend most of their time outputting less than 1 watt...it is easier to get low distortion at low power than it is to get low distortion across the full power band of a high power amp.

This is one thing the ncore does better than almost all amps: its distortion is below the noise floor out to almost 50 watts, which is better than nearly all low power amps, and not much higher out to full power.

There does seem to be a few who are overly sensitive to comments regarding these amps.  This is a subjective hobby after all, and one persons nirvana is another idea of bad sound.  So, as long as opinions don't cross into personal attacks, who cares if any piece of audio gear is praised or trashed?   

Indeed. Posing questions, stating opinion, etc., shouldn't bother anyone. Haters gonna hate...

[Rclark]

 

Hey Freo, I find that pretty interesting since I will get to experience the "set like" sound, and apparently at a very high level of quality. I'm going to demo it on my less taxing monitors.

 Since we can all agree that class d has arrived, that brings me to a question. It wasn't so obvious before that SS amps would ever be accepted at the table, and now you have people such as yourself, and Tom, saying things like, "never need another tube amp again", etc. And the Ncore, for example, caused many, many people to sell their very expensive tube amps (and high end SS), which is pretty impressive.

 However, we are seeing that the tube preamp is still a mainstay in these systems. Do you think it is also a matter of time now before the SS preamp is given the same respect as a top line tube preamp? I understand Mola Mola includes a preamp. I wonder how it will rate.

[Freo-1]

Hey Freo, I find that pretty interesting since I will get to experience the "set like" sound, and apparently at a very high level of quality. I'm going to demo it on my less taxing monitors.

 Since we can all agree that class d has arrived, that brings me to a question. It wasn't so obvious before that SS amps would ever be accepted at the table, and now you have people such as yourself, and Tom, saying things like, "never need another tube amp again", etc. And the Ncore, for example, caused many, many people to sell their very expensive tube amps (and high end SS), which is pretty impressive.

 However, we are seeing that the tube preamp is still a mainstay in these systems. Do you think it is also a matter of time now before the SS preamp is given the same respect as a top line tube preamp? I understand Mola Mola includes a preamp. I wonder how it will rate.

Hang on, mate!  I did not say I would never own a tube amp again.    In fact, I'm in the middle of putting together a mono block pair of tube amps with 12SN7 input and 1625 output.  I also own a couple of Class A solid state amps I intend to keep long term.  Now, having said that, the TBI amps will get frequent usage with the audio only setup. 

IMHO, I think tubes will remain in vogue for some time to come.  So far, the majority of the subjectively best sounding source electronics seems to be from tubes (especially with digital).   Remember, source components are are all generally Class A topologies, and many folks still do not like Op Amps for preamp usage.

Tubes and the latest Class D seem to be an excellent match.   

[Regnad]

I use one of the tube "character" inserts on a Metric Halo LIO-8 and it is a great match direct to the NCores (IMO).

[Rclark]

Hang on, mate!  I did not say I would never own a tube amp again.    In fact, I'm in the middle of putting together a mono block pair of tube amps with 12SN7 input and 1625 output.  I also own a couple of Class A solid state amps I intend to keep long term.  Now, having said that, the TBI amps will get frequent usage with the audio only setup. 

IMHO, I think tubes will remain in vogue for some time to come.  So far, the majority of the subjectively best sounding source electronics seems to be from tubes (especially with digital).   Remember, source components are are all generally Class A topologies, and many folks still do not like Op Amps for preamp usage.

Tubes and the latest Class D seem to be an excellent match.

 I might end up taking Doug S's suggestion to try out a Melos.

[OzarkTom]

 

Well, I thought I had given the Ncores a great review, I never knew all of this would break-out. Like I said, these are the best 200 WPC amps that I have ever heard. Nothing else comes close to it IMHO.

It is hard imagine why anyone here would believe that any amp is perfect, when we have so imperfect playback sources, speakers, and cables. I have a hunch that Bruno is still researching on how to improve the Ncores, and I am sure he will do it.

[Freo-1]

Well, I thought I had given the Ncores a great review, I never knew all of this would break-out. Like I said, these are the best 200 WPC amps that I have ever heard. Nothing else comes close to it IMHO.

It is hard imagine why anyone here would believe that any amp is perfect, when we have so imperfect playback sources, speakers, and cables. I have a hunch that Bruno is still researching on how to improve the Ncores, and I am sure he will do it.

No worries, Tom.  You gave an excellent review.  I still want to audition them with the Legacy Signature III's.
No product is perfect, as we all have some amount of subjective bias.
 

[wushuliu]

Before using the TBI amps, I always thought class D was not up to par compared with a good class A amp.  I have since changed that opinion, as the class D TBI amp sounds a lot like a good tube SET, and it does a great job with depth and placement.  No reason to think the Ncore could not also provide that with the right setup.  For most folks, it seems to have provided just what the doctor ordered.

It should be noted that the TBI is based on a $8 chip made for televisions...

[Freo-1]

It should be noted that the TBI is based on a $8 chip made for televisions...

That is interesting, but the results speak for themselves.  Mr. Plummer was quite ingenious regarding the implementation.

Come to think of it, look at the parts compliment of ANY class D amp compared to, say a Pass Labs XA 30.5