[Freo-1]

With all due respect, calling the Ncore a DIY is a bit of a joke, don’t you think.  It’s certainly not like the old Dynaco or Citation kits of days gone by.  It’s basically two complete modules that one supplies a few bits and a case for.   
 
At the end of the day, it’s still a Class D amp, and all Class D amps I’ve heard to date have a specific sonic signature that is un-mistakable.  Granted, the Ncore appears to be at the pinnacle of that heap, but physics is physics.  One still has to overcome its basic operating principals in order to make it sound good, and no matter how well it measures, it will sound different than other types of amps, period.  Whether one prefers its sonic signature to (for example) a class A solid state or tube amp is a matter of personal taste.   

[medium jim]

With all due respect, calling the Ncore a DIY is a bit of a joke, don’t you think.  It’s certainly not like the old Dynaco or Citation kits of days gone by.  It’s basically two complete modules that one supplies a few bits and a case for.   
 
At the end of the day, it’s still a Class D amp, and all Class D amps I’ve heard to date have a specific sonic signature that is un-mistakable.  Granted, the Ncore appears to be at the pinnacle of that heap, but physics is physics.  One still has to overcome its basic operating principals in order to make it sound good, and no matter how well it measures, it will sound different than other types of amps, period.  Whether one prefers its sonic signature to (for example) a class A solid state or tube amp is a matter of personal taste.   

Well said.  While I haven't heard the NCore's, I have Bel Canto's offering as well as MBL's new C line.  Both sounded really nice and could easily understand why some would become so enamoured with their sound.

I'm a dyed in the wool Bottlehead, but that doesn't mean that I have stopped looking/listening for something that surpasses what already have and hopefully will not be too biased to know when I do hear something that is better.

Jim

[cab]

At the end of the day, it’s still a Class D amp, and all Class D amps I’ve heard to date have a specific sonic signature that is un-mistakable.

Maybe that has been your experience. There are many who would disagree.

[barrows]

Freo-1:

It sounds like you have not heard any nCore amps. If this is correct you have no opinion on how they sound, and anything you say regarding them is mere speculation.
To suggest that all class D amplifiers sound alike is ignorant, and analogous to saying all class A amps sound alike.  I have heard plenty of slow, soft, lacking in detail class A amps (Pass Aleph series for instance).  And I have heard spectacular sounding class A amps (Vitus for instance).

I have also heard many class D varieties: HCA-2, ICEPower ASP and ASPX series, uCD, NCore, etc.  And they all sound quite different from one another.  Commercial amps using these modules also can sound quite different, as commercial builders often add their own input stage, which can make a huge difference to the sound.

Equating the sound of the nCore 400 DIY amps, to that which comes from the commercial implementations of the nC1200 is also going to be a mistake, as the nC1200 allows for the builder to implement their own voltage gain stage.

cab: no, the "problems" I heard in the nC400 were not from the rest of the system, as the missing parts were not missing in the same system with a different amplifier.  That said, if you read my post, I was very impressed by the nCore, despite the sonic shortcoming I heard.  And I also acknowledged that the amps had only had about three days of use, I believe the sound could get better with extended break in, and have not, by any means, come to a final conclusion as to what I think about the sound.

I prefer to respect others' points of view, and am interested in hearing of actual listening impressions, especially in comparison to known, well regarded amplifiers; I hope people here will continue to post their impressions of actual experiences, rather than resort to name calling and speculation.

[cab]

What amazes me is that some of you are comparing the DIY Ncore 400 to OEM amps and expecting them to be as good or better then anything out there. Why not compare apples to apples. Compare several, or Bruno's, of the forthcoming OEM Ncore 1200 amps to those OEM amps and see how they compare. In till then you are comparing apples to oranges.

What is even more amazing is that some are comparing without having heard them. All these generalizations about the limits of class d, designer this and that, I didn't like a class d amp I heard once, are all meaningless. Read what Rowland said about implementation. Any class can sound good or bad, pushing everything in the same slot is meaningless. It all depends on the implementation, then the interaction with the system, room, and finally, personal preference. Surely there are good and bad amps in every class. The ncore appears to be, by nearly all accounts, as well as its measured performance, a top class amp. Is it the best in the world? That is a matter of opinion. Is it for everyone? No. Do you have to like it? No. Do you need to hear it to have a basis for opinion? Yes.

[cab]

; I hope people here will continue to post their impressions of actual experiences, rather than resort to name calling and speculation.

Wouldn't that be nice?

[medium jim]

The name calling started with RClark, who has never heard the NCore's.  I loved how he was telling everyone who nay sayed them, that they were bitter because the Ncores were devaluating their old dinasaur amps and other rubbish.

I have great respect for Nelson Pass, Lew Johnson and a few others who have indicated that they felt that Class D hadn't surpassed Linear and will take them at face value. Especially Nelson who has tried to design a viable Class D amp.

Jim

[cab]

RClark is harmless. No reason for mature people to get bent out of shape and act like little children, no matter what he claims. "Slapping him down" only serves to lower the general level of this forum to the sandbox. There is no need to let him bring out the worst in those that disagree with him.

At least a dozen people have compared Pass amps to the ncore and preferred the ncore on various forums. Have you heard the ncore or are you just speculating?

Pass is not a class d designer. Class d is a totally different animal. While there are class d designers who have done class a, it doesn't work the other way. Would it make any sense for him, at this point, to change horses when he is so successful at what he does already? No. Would it make any sense for him to say anything positive about class d? Unbiased sources are usually preferable when trying to form opinions that can be defended.

[jackman]

I have heard it and can say that their fear is unfounded.

Tyson, don't egg-on the troll.   Cab and his buddy Rclark don't care about logic. The Ncore has given them more than a great amp, it has given them a reason for being.  Cab is pretty much 100% Ncore, 24/7 on this site. Look at his posts. He spends almost all of his time picking fights about the Ncore.

Where else do you see this type of behavior? 

[cab]

Tyson, don't egg-on the troll.   Cab and his buddy Rclark don't care about logic. The Ncore has given them more than a great amp, it has given them a reason for being.  Cab is pretty much 100% Ncore, 24/7 on this site. Look at his posts. He spends almost all of his time picking fights about the Ncore.

Where else do you see this type of behavior?

And you spend all day practicing your pathetic failed comedy routines in response.

Do you have anything of substance to say, or are you simply programmed to spew insults?

[jackman]

Hey Cab,
Just trying to point out the obvious.  If the stuff you add to this site qualifies as "substance", I'll gladly abstain. You and your little buddy Rclark provide enough substance for all of us.  Your insightful, objective commentary has made this a better place.  Keep it coming.

Cheers

Jack

[cab]

Careful, your attention starved upbringing is beginning to show.

[Tyson]

The nCore's are the best class D amps I've heard.  No glare in the upper regions, or painful HF emphasis.  That said, they are not the best amps ever.  Even my 30 watt tube amp sounded better than they did.  But then I'm not surprised, that's often the case - the latest and greatest comes out, wows people with it's particular strengths, people buy it, and then the weaknesses become apparent, then the weaknesses become annoying, then the amps go up for sale just in time for the next round of next best things.  I've seen it happen with amps, DAC's, speakers, cable, you name it.  I do think the nCore's are better than most flavors of the month, but based on my audition, they definitely have some weaknesses that will become more magnified over time. 

[jackman]

Careful, your attention starved upbringing is beginning to show.

You got me!  Sorry if I pulled you away from attacking some poor sap who may have said less than positive things about your beloved Ncore   Have you scared evyone off or are people just enjoying the nice weather?

[cab]

I do think the nCore's are better than most flavors of the month, but based on my audition, they definitely have some weaknesses that will become more magnified over time.

No one has said they are perfect, all amps have strengths and weaknesses.

How will these weaknesses become more magnified over time?

[Tyson]

Oh, I'm just referring to the general phenomena of people being wowed by a piece of equipment's strengths right away, but only come to recognize their weaknesses slowly, over time.  And eventually those weaknesses going from mildly irritating to downright aggravating.

And not just in audio.... I have a lot of ex-girlfriends that followed the exact same pattern 

[cab]

Oh, I'm just referring to the general phenomena of people being wowed by a piece of equipment's strengths right away, but only come to recognize their weaknesses slowly, over time.  And eventually those weaknesses going from mildly irritating to downright aggravating.

Time will tell....

And not just in audio.... I have a lot of ex-girlfriends that followed the exact same pattern 

No doubt one will come along that appreciates you despite your weaknesses....

[jackman]

Tyson, was it your preference for colored sound or your inferior system that caused you to prefer an obviously inferior amp?  Perhaps it was a deeply rooted inferiority complex that made you feel you did not deserve the pristine reproduction only the Ncore can deliver?

Either way, I hope you resolve these issues soon enough to live life to the fullest with an Ncore amp and a big glass of Kool Aid. Before its too late

[audio-heaven]

  I said earlier on that things on this thread could get worse! Looks like I was right.

[Tyson]

Time will tell....

No doubt one will come along that appreciates you despite your weaknesses....

Well, been married 17 years and we're very happy, so someone did

Dating a lot is a great way to figure out very quickly what you don't want, in addition to figuring out what you do want in another person. 

Same with amps, listening and/or owning a lot of them will give you better context for evaluating strengths and weaknesses.  In the case of the nCore, it had strengths that I didn't really care about (bass control, smoothness, macrodynamics, detail), and weaknesses that I do care about (mediocre tonal balance, average musicality and emotional engagement).  Since I've come across this pattern of strengths and weaknesses before, it was easy to identify that it did things well that I don't care about, and did not do things well that I do care about.  So for me it's an easy pass.