[jjc1]

 Hi KEOMA.
 
 I think it's worth a little more effort to try to solve your problem.
 My vinyl setup is a notch higher than what you have ( Clearaudio Performance TT, Benz Micro Glider cart, Nova Phenomena phono amp) and the sound is superb. There is no reason that your setup shouldn't also sound great. I did notice when I first got my TT that the upgrade to a much better phono amp ( I previously was using a Creek OBH) was a dramatic improvement.
  Also, to the matter of cleaning records, my daughter brought me a pressing of an album she and her band recorded and played on a setup that was not very good and was complaining about the sound. It immediately sounded much better to her and after a cleaning I could hear a big improvment even thogh this was obviously a brand new pressing.
  I would strongly reccomend that you try the records you bought on another TT to see if the noise, etc. improves. I am sure that there are many on this forum that would be glad to give your records a listen on there systems. I would be happy to do this if you so desire.

[Keoma]

Good news overall, folks.

My dealer stopped by last night with a Pro-Ject XPression III, a NAD P2 preamp and a few calibration tools. He was more than generous with his time and we actually spent quite a while adjusting things, swapping components in and out, and just plain listening. Using a digital gauge, he corrected the tracking force from around 1.68 (which is where I had it after I played -unsuccessfully- with the table myself) to an exact 1.85. A couple of minor things were also slightly tweaked, and finally he inspected the stylus and could not find anything wrong with it. The phono preamp at this time was still my Pro-Ject Phono Box II.

We listened to the albums I had the most problems with. Yes' "Far From Here" in particular, which we also compared to its digital counterpart. I could still hear the distortion I have been describing along this thread, but now it was more subdued, less "sharp". I pointed it out to him in the best way I could, but he seemed not to be bothered by it as much as I was. He attributed it to a combination of vinyl's noise-floor and the actual distortion inherent to the recording process being exposed in all its glory by the revealing, not-yet-broken-in and unforgiving Blue Point 2 Sumiko MC cartridge. He's a lot more used to the analog "sound" as well, even though he admitted that nowadays he's just perfectly happy with great digital (can't blame him, since he mostly uses dCS gear!)

It's also important to point out, I suppose, that my ears are very sensitive to high frequencies. Since I work in the TV business and am sometimes responsible for audio recording and monitoring, I can usually hear high-pitched and highly distorted but ultra-brief peaks in the sound. That is mostly what I was listening to here when I use the word "distortion". Sometimes I point out things such as the "beeping" noise from a delivery truck backing up across the street, while my wife can't hear a thing (we have hurricane-proof windows, which block external sound by about 80%, and I can still hear those frequencies). So perhaps this "sensitivity" simply does not help in this particular case, but for whatever reason it rarely bothers me with digital.

We then swapped preamps. The NAD actually sounded worse than the Pro-Ject in my set-up. Its overall presentation was considerably more diffuse, less focused, and slightly less detailed. The sound was just "there", but I could not pinpoint the location of any of the instruments as well anymore. The distortion was also there, but that curiously did not change one-bit, perhaps because I knew exactly what to look for and WHEN to look for it. We went back to the Pro-Ject Phono Box and listened some more. My dealer pointed out that my cartridge definitely needed break-in and admitted it was still a little rough around the edges, but that things would start to improve quickly.

We swapped tables this time and used the XPression III. Beautiful table as well (WITH a dustcover for half the price, I might add ). This table was also brand new, out of the box. Its sound was "more hi-fi than hi-end", to quote somebody much wiser, with more emphasis on the bass (which was punchier but less defined), significantly less air on top, and a more compressed soundstage. But overall, a terrific bargain for the price. If one is mostly into rock, this could be a better table. The distortion was still there, and that is what mattered most to me (in other words, I felt better for not having imagined things), even though it was not as apparent nor as "edgy" and harsh due to the less-revealing nature of the Sumiko Oyster cartridge.

The RM 5.1 SE went back in, and we listened some more. We played the Morricone record that I described as having a "rhythmic" distorted sound throughout the entire Side B. No question there, and my dealer confirmed my fears: this album was 100% defective. It was impossible to ignore. The problem here, as I said before, is that I have at least 2 more records that I bought in the last few weeks and that exhibit similar problems, and they were all purchased brand new for more than $30. Not a great first impression. I can get great-sounding CD's for $8 on Amazon.

That might be the "moral of the story" here. Combine the wrong preamp setting at first (I was originally using MC instead of MM on the preamp, since the BPII cartridge is MC, without knowing better), with some VTA and tracking force errors during the set-up process (all of them minuscule, but it seems such things matter not with vinyl: it's either DEAD-ON or it's WAY OFF), with a brand new stylus that will throw every pop, click and nasty detail in a recording mercilessly at your face, with the wrong batch of albums, including some VERY defective ones, plus one un-experienced, overworked, slightly melodramatic and susceptible listener (yes, that's me!  ), and you have pretty much a recipe for disaster. At least temporarily! 

My dealer gave me some helpful, real-world and, more importantly, honest tips as to what to expect from this whole thing. We also both agreed there was no comparison between both tables: the RM 5.1SE wins by a long margin, and he suggested I keep it for another month or so, so that I could get more used to the format, and by then the cartridge should be fully broken-in. He will take it back and offered a full refund if by then I am still in doubt. 

After he left, I listened for another 3 hours or so... Two Coltrane jazz records (perhaps the best quality albums I currently own in my limited collection) now sounded much, much better. Liquid, smooth, less fatiguing. Perhaps the stylus was finally opening up after a few hours of playing that night, perhaps I am fooling myself, perhaps I was too tired and my hearing not as acute... I will keep listening throughout the weekend and I'll share more observations or revelations, if they present themselves. In the meantime, this is where I stand as of right now. Relieved that I wasn't imagining things when it came to the defective pressings, feeling appreciative about not having to rush my decision, but, more importantly, much better predisposed to approach this brave new world...

[DaveyW]

Well you certainly can't ask anymore from your dealer. Given your budget it's a solid package they've recommended and the after sales service and guarantees are top draw 

A couple of other things to possibly consider.

After spending the majority of your listening to digital sources, it's natural to compare vinyl to what's become your favoured preferences in presentation, possibly seeing differences as issues.
The vinyl rig will be different, the question is - is it better?
Get a few more discs (including original releases as opposed to modern pressings) and just spend time listening while continuing to break in the cart.
My listening tastes and preferences have definitely "matured" since returning back to vinyl. I ended up ditching my previous highly regarded CD player to one with a more organic, analogue approach.

Secondly and probably more importantly, I (and quite a few others here) have found HOMC's don't perform at there best into a std. 47k ohm load of an MM phonostage.
Dropping the resistive load tends to tidy up the top end, knocking back natural shrillness and hard edge as well as fattening up the sound a little.
Now I've not tried a Bluepoint but from what you've said so far, I suspect that you might benefit from this.
The good news is that it's very simple to deliver.
I've popped a quick guide up on the web Here

There are many who are totally happy with HOMC's into a 47k ohm load, so before going down this route I'd suggest you clock up a few miles on the Bluepoint, see where you end up and consider this as an option if some of those traits persist.

Vinyl is very rarely "plug and play" especially if your reference is a finely honed high end digital system. Part of the fun of the hobby for many of us is how far we can take it.
Keep us posted in progress, it's an interesting angle from which you are coming from.
Cheers,
Dave

[twitch54]

Dropping the resistive load tends to tidy up the top end, knocking back natural shrillness and hard edge as well as fattening up the sound a little.

Point well made Davey for I have needed to go down that path in order to remove the bottom end 'bloat' from my newly acquired Fosgate.

To the Op, I think it's fair to assume that you have realized at this point in your analog journey that the word 'synergy' and how it relates to all things in the analog chain and their associated set-up is key. Hope you continue to enjoy the ride !

[Keoma]

Thank you all for your comments.

Well you certainly can't ask anymore from your dealer. Given your budget it's a solid package they've recommended and the after sales service and guarantees are top draw 

Fully agree. I bought most of the components in my system from him, so he knows he has a loyal costumer in me, but of course I appreciate his gesture nevertheless. He's always gone the extra mile for me. 

After spending the majority of your listening to digital sources, it's natural to compare vinyl to what's become your favoured preferences in presentation, possibly seeing differences as issues.
The vinyl rig will be different, the question is - is it better?

Vinyl is very rarely "plug and play" especially if your reference is a finely honed high end digital system.

At this point, I'm honestly inclined to believe that no, it is not by any means "better", at least definitely not at this price point. My $1K Oppo obliterates the $1K Pro-Ject from ANY possible angle. Hell, even my $250 Squeezebox Touch sounds warmer and more detailed to me. And that device has literally transformed the way I enjoy music thanks to its unbeatable user-friendliness and array of possibilities. If I were to add a high-quality DAC to the Squeezebox Touch, say one that would cost me around $500, I'd still have a terrific digital front-end, capable of hi-res playback, with sound quality that would have cost literally thousandS just a few years ago, and unbeatable when it comes to flexibility and ease of use... for around $750! These are the things that I feel need to be considered and kept in perspective if analog truly wants to survive this famed "renaissance".

Additionally, and this seems to be the big elephant in the room, from what I have researched and read elsewhere (but, curiously, NOT in any mainstream magazine, of course), and from my own personal experience so far, there are other serious issues to address as well, like the horrifyingly large amount of just plain bad pressings available out there, including some very expensive ones. In this day and age, one can download entire discographies online for free in FLAC or even hi-res digital quality. However, I do not mind paying for music and do not condone downloading. I am all for supporting the artist and the record companies, specially independent ones, because I realize that in the end we all benefit from this model and I can appreciate the quality of a physical media product and love to admire good artwork and read liner notes. But there is no way in hell I would pay $27 or $40 for a record that MAY or MAY NOT be defective, or MAY or MAY NOT be of better quality than its CD counterpart. I even opened another new album last night (got it in the mail Saturday, cost me $27!) and it was missing a CHUNK of vinyl!  I do not know about you guys, but I'm a poor overworked and underpaid soul. I do not have time to deal with returns and costumer service calls. I simply want to listen to music to get away from stress, and not the opposite.

Again, I'm not anti-analog at all, and part of what you read here is my frustration getting the worst out of me. I got into this dilemma in the first place precisely because I liked the demos I heard and wanted to give the format a try. My conclusion, at least for the moment, is that, if anything, I have gone backwards. And I will not spend literally thousands just to get a "decent" quality analog set-up and achieve an "ok" overall level of quality.

At this point, this whole situation gets tricky for me since I feel I have "abused" my dealer's time and generosity enough by now, I have no nearby friends that are into audio that might be able to help, and do not wish to spend more money on this issue, at least not unless I am guaranteed results.

Secondly and probably more importantly, I (and quite a few others here) have found HOMC's don't perform at there best into a std. 47k ohm load of an MM phonostage. Dropping the resistive load tends to tidy up the top end, knocking back natural shrillness and hard edge as well as fattening up the sound a little. Now I've not tried a Bluepoint but from what you've said so far, I suspect that you might benefit from this. The good news is that it's very simple to deliver.
I've popped a quick guide up on the web Here

Thank you for this! I was not aware of it. I wouldn't want to add yet more complications and cables to my system, as I tend to prefer a "less is more" approach, but it's good to be aware of options such as the one you described. I will look into it.

I have been receiving quite a few comments, here and elsewhere, regarding the "brightness" and "harshness" of the Sumiko Blue Point No. 2 cartridge. It seems the synergy between the BP2 and the rest of my system might not be ideal, and I can live with that and understand that in this hobby "trial and error" is an necessary evil. A cheaper cartridge might give more of the warm and smooth sound I'm after.

There's another dealer in my area that specializes in all things analog and is an expert in cartridge and table set-up. He even builds tables himself, and positively despises digital. In other words: if he can't help me with any possible set-up problems, then nobody else I know in my area will be able to. He did not speak highly of Pro-Ject tables at all, saying that any cheaper Rega would destroy my $1K model (of course, he sells Rega himself, but in all honesty I doubt he's misguiding me and I got the feeling he was just being honest... plus, he DOES sell other products from the same distributor and manufacturer, just not turntables, since he considers them to be of sub-par quality and overpriced). He offered for me to stop by with some of the records I am having issues with so that I could try them on any of his Rega or other tables that he carries. I'll try to do so sometime next week, work permitting. If the distortion I'm hearing is no longer present, I will know for a fact that the problem lies in my table, somewhere. If that is the case, I will bring my table to him so that he can address any set-up issues. His fee is more than reasonable ($65), so I think it'll be money well spent. But if I hear the same distortion "peaks" on his table, then I'm afraid I'm returning the Pro-Ject and getting my money back.

I'll keep you guys posted, for sure. Thank you all for your input and feedback. I really appreciate it.

[jjc1]

Thank you all for your comments.

Fully agree. I bought most of the components in my system from him, so he knows he has a loyal costumer in me, but of course I appreciate his gesture nevertheless. He's always gone the extra mile for me. 

   
 This industry really needs these guys. So if we have to pay a bit more for our gear from ligit dealers, think what it will save you in the long run if you buy something cheaper and find out that it doesn't work to your satisfaction and then you have to put it up for sale.
  Sometimes I think this hobby is pennywise and pound foolish. WE can't afford to lose good dealers and we shjould keep that in mind.
 


At this point, I'm honestly inclined to believe that no, it is not by any means "better", at least definitely not at this price point. My $1K Oppo obliterates the $1K Pro-Ject from ANY possible angle. Hell, even my $250 Squeezebox Touch sounds warmer and more detailed to me. And that device has literally transformed the way I enjoy music thanks to its unbeatable user-friendliness and array of possibilities. If I were to add a high-quality DAC to the Squeezebox Touch, say one that would cost me around $500, I'd still have a terrific digital front-end, capable of hi-res playback, with sound quality that would have cost literally thousandS just a few years ago, and unbeatable when it comes to flexibility and ease of use... for around $750! These are the things that I feel need to be considered and kept in perspective if analog truly wants to survive this famed "renaissance".

Additionally, and this seems to be the big elephant in the room, from what I have researched and read elsewhere (but, curiously, NOT in any mainstream magazine, of course), and from my own personal experience so far, there are other serious issues to address as well, like the horrifyingly large amount of just plain bad pressings available out there, including some very expensive ones. In this day and age, one can download entire discographies online for free in FLAC or even hi-res digital quality. However, I do not mind paying for music and do not condone downloading. I am all for supporting the artist and the record companies, specially independent ones, because I realize that in the end we all benefit from this model and I can appreciate the quality of a physical media product and love to admire good artwork and read liner notes. But there is no way in hell I would pay $27 or $40 for a record that MAY or MAY NOT be defective, or MAY or MAY NOT be of better quality than its CD counterpart. I even opened another new album last night (got it in the mail Saturday, cost me $27!) and it was missing a CHUNK of vinyl!  I do not know about you guys, but I'm a poor overworked and underpaid soul. I do not have time to deal with returns and costumer service calls. I simply want to listen to music to get away from stress, and not the opposite.

Again, I'm not anti-analog at all, and part of what you read here is my frustration getting the worst out of me. I got into this dilemma in the first place precisely because I liked the demos I heard and wanted to give the format a try. My conclusion, at least for the moment, is that, if anything, I have gone backwards. And I will not spend literally thousands just to get a "decent" quality analog set-up and achieve an "ok" overall level of quality.

At this point, this whole situation gets tricky for me since I feel I have "abused" my dealer's time and generosity enough by now, I have no nearby friends that are into audio that might be able to help, and do not wish to spend more money on this issue, at least not unless I am guaranteed results.

Thank you for this! I was not aware of it. I wouldn't want to add yet more complications and cables to my system, as I tend to prefer a "less is more" approach, but it's good to be aware of options such as the one you described. I will look into it.

I have been receiving quite a few comments, here and elsewhere, regarding the "brightness" and "harshness" of the Sumiko Blue Point No. 2 cartridge. It seems the synergy between the BP2 and the rest of my system might not be ideal, and I can live with that and understand that in this hobby "trial and error" is an necessary evil. A cheaper cartridge might give more of the warm and smooth sound I'm after.

There's another dealer in my area that specializes in all things analog and is an expert in cartridge and table set-up. He even builds tables himself, and positively despises digital. In other words: if he can't help me with any possible set-up problems, then nobody else I know in my area will be able to. He did not speak highly of Pro-Ject tables at all, saying that any cheaper Rega would destroy my $1K model (of course, he sells Rega himself, but in all honesty I doubt he's misguiding me and I got the feeling he was just being honest... plus, he DOES sell other products from the same distributor and manufacturer, just not turntables, since he considers them to be of sub-par quality and overpriced). He offered for me to stop by with some of the records I am having issues with so that I could try them on any of his Rega or other tables that he carries. I'll try to do so sometime next week, work permitting. If the distortion I'm hearing is no longer present, I will know for a fact that the problem lies in my table, somewhere. If that is the case, I will bring my table to him so that he can address any set-up issues. His fee is more than reasonable ($65), so I think it'll be money well spent. But if I hear the same distortion "peaks" on his table, then I'm afraid I'm returning the Pro-Ject and getting my money back.

I'll keep you guys posted, for sure. Thank you all for your input and feedback. I really appreciate it.

Thank you all for your comments.

Fully agree. I bought most of the components in my system from him, so he knows he has a loyal costumer in me, but of course I appreciate his gesture nevertheless. He's always gone the extra mile for me. 

At this point, I'm honestly inclined to believe that no, it is not by any means "better", at least definitely not at this price point. My $1K Oppo obliterates the $1K Pro-Ject from ANY possible angle. Hell, even my $250 Squeezebox Touch sounds warmer and more detailed to me. And that device has literally transformed the way I enjoy music thanks to its unbeatable user-friendliness and array of possibilities. If I were to add a high-quality DAC to the Squeezebox Touch, say one that would cost me around $500, I'd still have a terrific digital front-end, capable of hi-res playback, with sound quality that would have cost literally thousandS just a few years ago, and unbeatable when it comes to flexibility and ease of use... for around $750! These are the things that I feel need to be considered and kept in perspective if analog truly wants to survive this famed "renaissance".

Additionally, and this seems to be the big elephant in the room, from what I have researched and read elsewhere (but, curiously, NOT in any mainstream magazine, of course), and from my own personal experience so far, there are other serious issues to address as well, like the horrifyingly large amount of just plain bad pressings available out there, including some very expensive ones. In this day and age, one can download entire discographies online for free in FLAC or even hi-res digital quality. However, I do not mind paying for music and do not condone downloading. I am all for supporting the artist and the record companies, specially independent ones, because I realize that in the end we all benefit from this model and I can appreciate the quality of a physical media product and love to admire good artwork and read liner notes. But there is no way in hell I would pay $27 or $40 for a record that MAY or MAY NOT be defective, or MAY or MAY NOT be of better quality than its CD counterpart. I even opened another new album last night (got it in the mail Saturday, cost me $27!) and it was missing a CHUNK of vinyl!  I do not know about you guys, but I'm a poor overworked and underpaid soul. I do not have time to deal with returns and costumer service calls. I simply want to listen to music to get away from stress, and not the opposite.

Again, I'm not anti-analog at all, and part of what you read here is my frustration getting the worst out of me. I got into this dilemma in the first place precisely because I liked the demos I heard and wanted to give the format a try. My conclusion, at least for the moment, is that, if anything, I have gone backwards. And I will not spend literally thousands just to get a "decent" quality analog set-up and achieve an "ok" overall level of quality.

At this point, this whole situation gets tricky for me since I feel I have "abused" my dealer's time and generosity enough by now, I have no nearby friends that are into audio that might be able to help, and do not wish to spend more money on this issue, at least not unless I am guaranteed results.

Thank you for this! I was not aware of it. I wouldn't want to add yet more complications and cables to my system, as I tend to prefer a "less is more" approach, but it's good to be aware of options such as the one you described. I will look into it.

I have been receiving quite a few comments, here and elsewhere, regarding the "brightness" and "harshness" of the Sumiko Blue Point No. 2 cartridge. It seems the synergy between the BP2 and the rest of my system might not be ideal, and I can live with that and understand that in this hobby "trial and error" is an necessary evil. A cheaper cartridge might give more of the warm and smooth sound I'm after.

There's another dealer in my area that specializes in all things analog and is an expert in cartridge and table set-up. He even builds tables himself, and positively despises digital. In other words: if he can't help me with any possible set-up problems, then nobody else I know in my area will be able to. He did not speak highly of Pro-Ject tables at all, saying that any cheaper Rega would destroy my $1K model (of course, he sells Rega himself, but in all honesty I doubt he's misguiding me and I got the feeling he was just being honest... plus, he DOES sell other products from the same distributor and manufacturer, just not turntables, since he considers them to be of sub-par quality and overpriced). He offered for me to stop by with some of the records I am having issues with so that I could try them on any of his Rega or other tables that he carries. I'll try to do so sometime next week, work permitting. If the distortion I'm hearing is no longer present, I will know for a fact that the problem lies in my table, somewhere. If that is the case, I will bring my table to him so that he can address any set-up issues. His fee is more than reasonable ($65), so I think it'll be money well spent. But if I hear the same distortion "peaks" on his table, then I'm afraid I'm returning the Pro-Ject and getting my money back.

I'll keep you guys posted, for sure. Thank you all for your input and feedback. I really appreciate it.

[Keoma]

JJC1, it seems there was a problem in your last post. All I see is a quoted copy of what I posted earlier... 

[jjc1]

JJC1, it seems there was a problem in your last post. All I see is a quoted copy of what I posted earlier... 

   Sorry about that.  All I was saying is that it is great to have a dealer that actually cares. I have a dealer like that but this hobby of ours can be penny wise and pound foolish...If it matters more to save a little on the internet or discount types, then we will drive the legit dealers out of business(which is already happening at an alarming rate) and then find out that it ends up costing more for a piece of gear that is lousy and has  to be  sold it at a discount.

[DaveyW]

Keoma wrote;

Hell, even my $250 Squeezebox Touch sounds warmer and more detailed to me.

Further evidence to me that the cart is the principal issue here - there's nothing overly lean or bright in your phono stage or TT.

See how it settles down, but I suspect you'll probably be better off with a richer MM or MI.
Might be worth lining your Dealer up for a demo of alternatives.

[Keoma]

I just got back from a most illuminating visit to the analog-only dealer in my area I mentioned in my previous post. And, finally, I am now in a position, my oh-so-patient friends, to conclude that, as far as I am concerned, this case is closed.

Let me elaborate...

I brought with me two records I was having the most issues with: Yes' "Far From Here" (a 2011 release, brand new, just played 3 or 4 times by me) and Ennio Morricone's "Revolver" (an Italian soundtrack to a cult movie which I love, also brand new, 180 gms pressing). The issues I experienced on both these records were also present, to various degrees, on pretty much 90% of the rest of the records I currently own. But these two were the most obvious examples, and both had exhibited the same anomalies on the Xpression III and my own RPM-5.1 SE table.

This "analog or die!" dealer (who will NOT have ANYTHING to do with digits, not even hi-res) played both albums on a $3500 Townshend table (he did not have any Rega table set-up, even though he more than once mentioned that any $450 Rega table would "destroy" my Pro-Ject). The rest of the system was at least another $25K. I believe the phono preamp alone is another $3K (a Shanling tubed unit), but I didn't even want to ask at this point. All beautiful and audiophile-approved, to be sure... BUT the second that needle dropped on the Yes album I heard what I had been hearing all along on my own system: distortion, compressed peaks, harshness, more noise that I care to put up with, and an overly bright presentation. I have a SHM-CD version of this album that I downloaded from a blog and it sounds infinitely better via USB through my Oppo. Same thing with the Morricone album. EXACTLY the same.

Long story short: the records are defective. Problem is, again: most of the ones I bought (from different vendors, both online and in person, all brand new, and from different vintage and genres... and all EXPENSIVE) exhibit similar problems, and one even came with a chunk of vinyl missing! This is the big elephant in the room for me, as I mentioned in my previous post: quality control, or lack of. Or maybe the records are not defective at all, and this is just how analog sounds and, to my ears, it is not better than today's best digital front-ends. This is, with all due respect and in all candor, friends, just plain unacceptable. Apologies if I offend anybody, but I just don't get it.

The dealer, who by now was getting a little tense and aggressive after I explained how disappointed and frustrated I felt about the whole experience, then played a James Brown record. "But listen to this!" he said. Sure, it sounded nice, but no better than what I can get from my Oppo with a quality CD or SACD, at a price about 4 times cheaper. "Nobody spends $30 on vinyl! You are crazy to do that!", he continued. Sure, I'm all for digging up used records at my local Good Will at $0.25 a piece, but how about new music that's released on vinyl? Only way to get that is brand-new, at about an average of $27, like the Yes album I keep mentioning. Well, if that sounds considerably worse than the CD counterpart that I can get for $12 (or free, if I really want to), then what's the point? There's only so much Coltrane, Ella, Miles and Brown I can listen to, in all honesty.

At this point the dealer started talking about "mold compound" being deposited in the grooves after a record is pressed, and he mentioned -you guessed it!- a cleaning machine. I asked "how much for one you recommend that REALLY gets the job done?" "About $550", he said. More than the $450 Rega table that "destroys" my Pro-Ject.

Folks, I rest my case.

------
(sorry for the overly negative tone... I literally just experienced this 30 minutes ago, and simply could not help it. I felt it was important to share the experience here. Again, I truly appreciate everybody's input and opinions. I hope I have not offended anybody. At least I now know for sure and have formed my own opinion about the subject. The good thing to be gained from all of this is that I now appreciate my digital front-end even more. )

[geezer]

Well Keoma, you were much more persistent than I would have been. Given my experience long years ago, I'm not surprised.

[Keoma]

Thank you, Geezer. In fact, one of your previous posts was a little bit of an eye-opener to me. I'm referring to this line you wrote:

...I'm interested in listening to music, not spending time tweaking settings and cleaning disks...

That pretty much sums it up for me. As simple and logical as it may seem, we sometimes loose track that the point here is precisely that: to listen to, and discover new music. At least, that is the point to me.

I fully respect, understand and have no problems at all with the folks that like analog for other reasons, such as the hands-on approach, the artisan-like design of some arm/cartridge combinations, the fact that it pretty much forces you to sit down and pay attention (but I do that with my digital as well, so that point is moot for me), or simply due to the romanticism inherent in their childhood memories, but from now on, if I hear that analog is "superior" to a good-quality CD or hi-res digital, I'm afraid I will simply have to disagree. Specially if the argument comes from folks like the "analog or else!" dealer I described above. I mean, good lord... you should have seen his face when I told him that I was not willing to invest significant (to me) amounts of money in all this peripheral paraphernalia "just" to get started with vinyl and achieve "ok" results...

[Wayner]

At this point the dealer started talking about "mold compound" being deposited in the grooves after a record is pressed, and he mentioned -you guessed it!- a cleaning machine. I asked "how much for one you recommend that REALLY gets the job done?" "About $550", he said. More than the $450 Rega table that "destroys" my Pro-Ject.
Folks, I rest my case.

There is no mold compound used. The grooves are already at 90°, so that is one hell of a draft angle. Besides, think about it for a minute, if mold release compound was to be used, it would leave marks in the grooves and be audiable "popcorn".

The release agent is in the vinyl "puck" that is pressed into a record, as part of the vinyl blend.

Wayner

[*Scotty*]

Keoma, I suspect that most of the high frequency distortion you are hearing on non-defective records is due to the cartridge suspension needing to break-in. Break-in may take as much as 100 hrs of use before the distortion drops to an acceptable level.
 When the cartridge suspension finally breaks in there should be no difference in tonal quality between the record and the Hi-Rez release, assuming you are actually getting the 24/96 master as a download and there are not two different masters involved. My previous statement assumes of course that the neither the cartridge, nor the phono preamp are contributing to the problem.
 I would not be surprised if the current vinyl setup you have never equals level of sound quality you experience from your digital rig. To achieve this will probably require the expenditure of money on the right equipment.
 Given the likelihood that the above statement is indeed correct, in your position I would cash in my chips and stick with the digital medium.
Scotty
 

[TONEPUB]

If you want analog to sound really fantastic, it's going to take money and effort.  So in your case, it might not be "worth it."  I can't say I blame you, moderately priced digital is really good at offering bang for the buck these days.

But if you are going to listen to an entry level pro-ject with a budget cart and preamp with no cleaning regimen in place and buy $1 records at the thrift store, you're doomed to disappointment. 

I've heard great digital recordings and great analog recordings, as well as my fair share of crap on both sides.  Just because something is pressed on a slab of vinyl, doesn't mean it automatically sounds better than digital.  The new Wilco album is a perfect example of this - the CD sounds WAY better.

Analog didn't get interesting till I threw a fair share of $$ at it and spent a lot of time really learning how to dial in a turntable.  If you don't want to put in the time, invest the money or find a great setup person to help you, why bother?  Life is way to short to be aggravated by mediocre analog playback.  I certainly see no shame in someone not being into analog.  It's a fussy habit even when it all works right.  It's awesome, but finicky.

And to make it worse, good records are getting more expensive all the time.

Not a pursuit for the faint of heart.  It's almost driven me crazy a few times over the last 30 years.

[neobop]

Thank you, Geezer. In fact, one of your previous posts was a little bit of an eye-opener to me. I'm referring to this line you wrote:

That pretty much sums it up for me. As simple and logical as it may seem, we sometimes loose track that the point here is precisely that: to listen to, and discover new music. At least, that is the point to me.

I fully respect, understand and have no problems at all with the folks that like analog for other reasons, such as the hands-on approach, the artisan-like design of some arm/cartridge combinations, the fact that it pretty much forces you to sit down and pay attention (but I do that with my digital as well, so that point is moot for me), or simply due to the romanticism inherent in their childhood memories, but from now on, if I hear that analog is "superior" to a good-quality CD or hi-res digital, I'm afraid I will simply have to disagree. Specially if the argument comes from folks like the "analog or else!" dealer I described above. I mean, good lord... you should have seen his face when I told him that I was not willing to invest significant (to me) amounts of money in all this peripheral paraphernalia "just" to get started with vinyl and achieve "ok" results...

Like analogue for other reasons such as hands on, etc etc?

"but from now on, if I hear that analog is "superior" to a good-quality CD or hi-res digital, I'm afraid I will simply have to disagree."

How would you know? Your basis of comparison is high quality digital vs poor quality analogue. Did you even break in the cartridge, or more importantly research what to get in equipment and records? Seems like you chose worst case options in hardware and vinyl. Did you ask, in this circle for advise before you jumped in? We sure get the down side after it's done. When you went back to the dealer what did you bring - the two worst records that would insure failure for analogue.

I knew from the title of this thread that it would end this way. If you think about it, you weren't sincere in the first place about getting into records. Maybe you thought you were, for a minute or two, but the sad part is, now you think you know what it's about. Well, you've got it ass backwards. You have and like your digital set-up so get new recordings for that. They're digital anyway. There's thousands of those Ella and Ray Brown type vintage recordings you referred to. The vast majority sound better on a good analogue rig. Many are available on horrible early CDs and many aren't available at all on digital.

I'm not claiming superiority for one medium vs another. What I'm saying is that your analogue foray was doomed to failure and you insured that outcome. I suspect you knew that from the get-go, but giving you the benefit of the doubt, maybe it was not consciously realized. Hard to imagine how you could not realize records had to be cleaned, if you looked into it at all. I suspect you're just another digital geek who wants to prove something or give us grief with "digital superiority".

"Folks, I rest my case" That pretty much says it all, doesn't it? This thread was your case. We're not the defense though. We're the victims of this nonsense. If you were really trying to get into analogue I suspect you would have done a little homework.
neo

[Keoma]

I suspect you're just another digital geek who wants to prove something or give us grief with "digital superiority".

You could not be more mistaken. But your confrontational and insulting tone does not warrant a more detailed answer from my end.

Thank you all who have contributed to this thread with your advise, encouragement and opinions. I know have arrived at mine, and comments like the above (or the ones from the "analog-only!" dealer I described in my previous post), are also eye-openers. I appreciate everybody's time and help. I believe it is fair to conclude, and it seems you guys agree, that for those like me with a limited budget and limited analog hands-on experience, digital (specially hi-res) makes more sense nowadays.

[Nick77]

I got back into analog recently myself, but i went the budget route. I am not so convinced you have to throw vast sums of money at vinyl in order to enjoy. I picked up a vintage Sony ps-x7 with a vintage Stanton cart and i am having a ball. I have found that the phono pre makes a sizable donation to the whole analog picture. I have a budget used cambridge 640p that has been modded that now sounds outstanding. Most of my albums have come from thirft stores at a buck a piece, Ill admit only a handful better my very capable digital rig but a few recordings give me goosebumps. I am looking forward to moving up the calendar a bit on the table but for now with just several hundred invested i am having a blast.

[twitch54]

Nick, I think your approach has alot of merit !

To the Op, it surprises me in this age of on-line forums, etc with all the talk about analog that you seemed surprised at so many of the responses given to you.

Tonepub, a guy who does this stuff for a living, has mentioned numerous times on many a forum of the trial and tribulations of analog.

Oh well, I suspect we all got a giggle or two out of this thread the past couple of days.

[Ericus Rex]

Vinyl's not for everyone.  Move on, enjoy your life.