[Elizabeth]

Vinyl is just vinyl.One bad setup is not the world.
The reason for vinyl is the music, not the format.
So IF you have a good access to plenty of Lps laying around not being used, then yeah get a TT and play some of that music.
For folks looking for nirvana, Lps are not gonna do it for you unless you really want to listen to the music, and not worry about the format.
So, in general my recommendation for folks 'interested' in gettin into vinyl is: FORGET IT.

To most folks interested in Vinyl as a 'new' fun thing to do. Because they want it for the wrong reasons.
It ain't better than digital, it is just different. It has it's own issues and hassles and problems. And is NOT worth the bother for most folks who never had a vinyl setup before.
I grew up on vinyl, i give a rat's ass about the issues. I can throw a cart on a old beat up TT by eyball and it is 'fine' (in other words: who cares!)
Any old TT is OK by me. It does not have to be set up by sixteen gurus to sound just fine.
I just have a pile of LPs and easy access to good used LPs. so for me, it is eaasy to be into Lps.
I LAUGH at the folks trying to 'get into' LPs who are disappointed, because the majority of them WILL BE DISAPPOINTED. period. It may take awhile, but eventually the cool factor will wear off, and the hassle will be too much and they will push the TT to the back and just play digital. Eventually they will sell the vinyl stuff.
Maybe ONE out of ten will really enjoy playing LPs for real.
This is MY take in it all.
I have three TTs,  two of which are $2,000 plus ...three phono boxes in the $2,00 plus range.. 6,000 plus LPs and i mostly listen to CDs anyway.
 Being lazy.
 i keep the Lps and TTs and all because i can, and i do listen when I feel like it. Lps are NOTHING SPECIAL DUDES!!!
Jeez.
End of rant.
Thank you, I fell better and all warm and fuzzy.. LOL

Now i will go out and hunt for some more used LPs...

[thunderbrick]

Yeah, vinyl can be a PITA, but consider this:

My wife was nagging me to get rid of all my vinyl, until she heard an A/B with a CD. Now she runs around telling people that vinyl is much better.

I have had several all-digital students hear the difference and go buy a TT.

Leaving a record store in Nashville last week, most of the buyers were younger folks, and from all across the musical spectrum.

There must be something to it.

IMHO

[canzld]

let's be frank, is not user-friendly at all.

No -its' a life style. If you have the time to slow down, have a drink and fiddle around with your gear, it can be a very rewarding one. Don't expect everything to be perfect in a week. If the hassles of vinyl replay make you feel this frustrated already, then I think you may be better off sticking with digital and going up that ladder quality wise. I have to agree with Elizabeth.

The reason for vinyl is the music, not the format.
So IF you have a good access to plenty of Lps laying around not being used, then yeah get a TT and play some of that music.

Changing tables won't change anything, they all need looking after. Roll the digital tunes and enjoy the fact they don't need cleaning first 

[Keoma]

Apologies, folks, but I'm not too sure I like the confrontational tone in the last couple of posts, specially the "I LAUGH at the folks trying to 'get into' LPs" comment. I simply came here looking for expert advice and help, not lectures about "lifestyles". I can "slow down" and "fiddle around" with my digital gear as well, trust me, and I do not consider myself the average 30-something, since my daily activities revolve around classical music, obscure soundtracks, literature and foreign movies from decades past. Oh, and I do not drink, so that part would not apply to me, regardless.

In any case, let's please try to stay on-topic, and sincere apologies if my concerns have been misinterpreted as demeaning towards analog. They were not meant that way at all. I will report about my progress, if any, as soon as I hear back from my dealer.

[canzld]

My apologies, but there was no confrontational tone intended at all on my part. However, based on your opening post, and quote "convince me that it'll all be worth it at the end" , I hate so say I don't think it will be - there is no sonic nirvana at the end of the vinyl rainbow that you can't get to on your digital route. Most of my listening is classical and almost exclusively vinyl - but if I was starting all over again - I would probably go down the digital pathway - digital files, PC playback and high quality DAC. As more and more of the music I am interested in becomes reissued on CD, I wonder whether collecting old LPs has much merit. However, purely because the digital versions still lack something, I'll stick with the LPs - and I'm already a couple of thousand in. Good luck with which ever way you choose.

[Keoma]

My apologies, but there was no confrontational tone intended at all on my part. However, based on your opening post, and quote "convince me that it'll all be worth it at the end" , I hate so say I don't think it will be - there is no sonic nirvana at the end of the vinyl rainbow that you can't get to on your digital route. Most of my listening is classical and almost exclusively vinyl - but if I was starting all over again - I would probably go down the digital pathway - digital files, PC playback and high quality DAC. As more and more of the music I am interested in becomes reissued on CD, I wonder whether collecting old LPs has much merit. However, purely because the digital versions still lack something, I'll stick with the LPs - and I'm already a couple of thousand in. Good luck with which ever way you choose.

Thanks! No harm done at all. I can see the points on both ends, really. When I said "convince me that it'll all be worth it at the end" I was, of course, being tongue-in-cheek. Just heard from my dealer and hopefully I'll have some news to report by Saturday. Thanks again to all for your input.

[TONEPUB]

Not quite so sure it is only with analog. There are quite a few very expensive DACs and transports on the digital end. 

Very true, but my dCS Paganini stack took about ten minutes to set up and there's really nothing to tweek.  Play with filter settings and sampling rates, but once I decided which I liked best (turned out to be the fact. defaults) it's plug and play.

I guess to be more clear, there's more room for error with analog. And if it goes terribly wrong i.e. too much tracking force, etc etc you can damage a cart or ruin a valuable record.

I think I just kept going with analog out of sheer stubbornness.

But seriously, I've heard great analog setups from very reasonably priced to pretty expensive, but the key is really care in setup.

It all depends on how obsessed or not you would like to go with it.

[Mitsuman]

I appreciate your comments. But this is NOT one of those "old vs. new" nor "computer pseudo-geeks vs. old dinosaurs who love pops and clicks" debates. Far from it, and I do believe that one should be able to enjoy the virtues of BOTH technologies in peaceful co-existence. The fact that I decided to give this format a try without even having a record collection to begin with, and with zero previous experience, is precisely because I did like what I heard, A LOT, and I am aware that a multitude of audiophiles can not be this wrong.

My problems and subsequent hesitation arose afterwards, once I was basically left on my own to deal with the realities and intricacies of something that, let's be frank, is not user-friendly at all. In fact, the more you get into it, the more complicated it seems to get. Obviously the demos I had heard were played by properly set-up tables using $50+ records that are well-known for their audiophile pedigree, and with phono-preamps costing as much as my entire current system. I was not aware of all the other tools, accessories and manual labor that would be required in order to get things going to a merely "acceptable" level. Then again, this is my frustration talking, as I have been left with a $1K turntable I have barely used in a week while I wait for the artillery.

To go back to my question in the post above, do you guys think the XPression III would be a better fit in my case? I'm sure my dealer would be willing to trade-down to that model if needed.

I'm not trying to discourage you, so if it sounded that way mea culpa. I happen to be one that enjoys both formats, but I've been a vinyl tweaker for 35 years so it's not daunting to me at all. My advice to you would be to find a truly knowledgeable person locally (not a dealer, they are typically in it to make money, period.) and get them to give you some hands-on training in proper cartridge/TT setup. Have them bring some of their LP's that they know are clean, and give them a spin. Best of luck to you, but if you expect vinyl to be as plug n' play as CD, you will continue to be disapointed in the effort. If you stick with it, get some quality coaching from a veteran, you will soon find yourself listening to less and less of your CD's.

Craig

[ricmon]

Hello Keoma.  Unfortunately none of the long time leaders of this ring have responded to your post.  The basic advise you are getting is somewhat good.  But may I suggest that you start here
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=32.0

There you will find the info, techniques and shared stories to getting the best out of your vinyl.

Good luck
Ric

[SET Man]

Hey!

    I grew up with tapes and than CD. But I got in to vinyl in the early '90s, many years later I have to say that I'm glade I did. 

      I would say that if your dealer is willing to solve the problem for you than thumbs up for them.  Do take that offer.

    It is very hard to figure what cause this with out being there. But since you said the sound distort on every record I would think more likely improper set up cart or there is something wrong with the phono stage, overloading perhaps.

    Anyway, do take take the dealer help and if you know any vinyl user just ask them to check it out.... there might be a fellow ACer near you that can help.
 
     Lastly, don't give up yet, vinyl take some care. Believe me it will be worth it once you get everything playing right. For me hearing some of my favorite song on vinyl in pure analog form make it worthwhile. 

Take care,
Buddy 

[Elizabeth]

""(and convince me that it'll all be worth it at the end!) ""
 If you wanted convincing.. sorry I messed up.
For convincing:
Ohhh yes, it will all be perfect, spend more money. Spend more time, Buy a better table, buy a better cartridge, buy a better phono box, buy a LP cleaning machine.. $20,000. will make it all better.
Happy?
I went out and found a bunch of used NRBQ albums... nice.
Julian Cope: "My Nation Underground" $4
NRBQ: "All Hopped Up" $4
NRBQ: "Scraps" $6
NRBQ: "Kick Me Hard" $4
NRBQ: Tiddly Winks $4
NRBQ: "At Yankee Stadium" $3
NRBQ: Tapdancin' Bats $3
NRBQ: "Carl Perkins and NRBQ" $3
And then a slightly beat up Country Joe and the Fish "Together"  $3 original cover.
Total $30. So i got one off, discount.. cool.

"I am just naturally evil at heart.." folks say that about me ALL THE TIME. 

[geezer]

As soon as I accumulated a reasonable collection of CDs, many years ago, I gave away all my LPs and related gear. I'm interested in listening to music, not spending time tweaking settings and cleaning disks.

My listening is almost all classical, and with vinyl you just can't get the dynamic range, especially with opera.

I've never looked back.

[TONEPUB]

""(and convince me that it'll all be worth it at the end!) ""
 If you wanted convincing.. sorry I messed up.
For convincing:
Ohhh yes, it will all be perfect, spend more money. Spend more time, Buy a better table, buy a better cartridge, buy a better phono box, buy a LP cleaning machine.. $20,000. will make it all better.
Happy?
I went out and found a bunch of used NRBQ albums... nice.
Julian Cope: "My Nation Underground" $4
NRBQ: "All Hopped Up" $4
NRBQ: "Scraps" $6
NRBQ: "Kick Me Hard" $4
NRBQ: Tiddly Winks $4
NRBQ: "At Yankee Stadium" $3
NRBQ: Tapdancin' Bats $3
NRBQ: "Carl Perkins and NRBQ" $3
And then a slightly beat up Country Joe and the Fish "Together"  $3 original cover.
Total $30. So i got one off, discount.. cool.

"I am just naturally evil at heart.." folks say that about me ALL THE TIME. 

So why is it always that those that don't do it your way are wrong?

[jimdgoulding]

I listen to both.  Well, I used to more than now.  It may be that my digital front end is different somehow to my analog front end in matters of feeling the music , tho they cost pretty near the same and my digital is of a more recent vintage.  Whatever the reason, I seldom listen via digital these days unless there is something I have only on compact disc.  I do not think of myself as an analog snob.  It's just a practical thing to these old ears and heart.  Both do all the audiophile things equally. 

[Elizabeth]

So why is it always that those that don't do it your way are wrong?

Nobody else is wrong. Nor am I right. i just display confidence in my writing. If i actually am confident in what i say, Does that mean you assume i think I am right? and that everyone else is wrong? NOT dude, not.
All it means is that i actually thought about it, and wrote what i believe. that is all. no big deal, nothing, so what. jeez.

[woodsyi]

As soon as I accumulated a reasonable collection of CDs, many years ago, I gave away all my LPs and related gear. I'm interested in listening to music, not spending time tweaking settings and cleaning disks.

My listening is almost all classical, and with vinyl you just can't get the dynamic range, especially with opera.

I've never looked back.

This maybe so with new recordings but there are tons of great esoteric opera recordings that never got remastered to CD.  The primary reason for my 3 TTs are for opera.  I probably have over 2k opera records.  I think I have 11 different Carmens just counting the complete recordings.  Also, Callas sounds better on vinyl, imho.

[TONEPUB]

Nobody else is wrong. Nor am I right. i just display confidence in my writing. If i actually am confident in what i say, Does that mean you assume i think I am right? and that everyone else is wrong? NOT dude, not.
All it means is that i actually thought about it, and wrote what i believe. that is all. no big deal, nothing, so what. jeez.

So what indeed.

So, if you "believe in what you say" but don't claim to be right, what does that mean then?

Doesn't make any sense to me.

[Elizabeth]

Doesn't make any sense to me.

Ain't I a woman?
ROFLMAO

[moon unit]

If the cartridge was fitted at the factory and not double checked by the dealer, there is no guarantee that it is aligned properly. 100% you need to use the MM stage for this cart, the MC mode is only for low output carts which a BP #2 is not. Going by your description of excessive surface noise and distortion, it sounds like the tracking force (VTF) is too low - what is it set at??? No disrespect, but if you are intimidated by adjusting the VTF, which is about the simplest thing to do on a turntable, this hobby (and yes, it is a hobby) is not for you. A turntable is not a plug and play device, it is a very sensitive mechanical device and every little thing can and will affect the sound. If you are willing to spend the time to learn everything about it you will find it very rewarding, if not it will remain a poor and noisy alternative to good digital. Also, it will not stop at $1000, you will end up spending at lot more money than you thought you would in the end.

The Pro-Ject Expression III is a definite step down from your 5.1, not that the table is bad but it comes fitted with the Sumiko Oyster which is a poor cart.

[DaveyW]

Hey Keoma - See where you get with your dealer.
Definately try different carts and phonostages - ask him if he has anything a little loftier than the Phonobox and the NAD to try.
Given what you've said so far I think you'll prefer a good MM to a modest HOMC, these can be a little sharp and sometimes coarse if not well matched.

From my side I grew up with vinyl, migrated to CD's during the late eighties into the nineties (like many). Thankfully I did'nt off load my vinyl in that time.
The CD dalliance was short lived - My home playing is 95% vinyl.
Am spinning some AC-DC at the moment and it's truly fantastic.

One other point is that there is a plentiful supply of good quality Classical.
I see plenty of collections going for sale and a good way to get going quickly.

Hopefully the dealer will sort you out.

Good Luck
Dave