Help A Vinyl Noob (and convince me that it'll all be worth it at the end!)

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Wayner

Vinyl is not a plug and play medium. In general terms, but certainly not in absolute terms, the more the user knows about all the ins and outs of vinyl playback, the better the system will sound. This usually comes with experience. Like when we all put on ice skates or skies the first time, there were plenty of times to pick ourselves up. The determined ones are the ones that become skilled at their set-ups.

Many discussions on these boards have talked about one aspect or another about proper table set-up (stuff like VTA, VTF, anti-skate), record cleaning, record cleaning machines, static suppressor devices, isolation platforms and on and on, but these are just more learning curves for the newbie.

If you decide to take the plunge, you don't have to buy high priced gear, just something decent. With head buried in an owner's manual, you will start to realize that there are lot of "tings" going on here and that micro movements and positions (all in harmony or dis-harmony) will make the vinyl listening experience either heavenly bliss or cursed hell.

I am sure you will start somewhere in the middle. As you learn, you will explore your set-up, trying new alignments (or ask "what is an Alignment"?), but that will the start of your journey.

I know that if you came to my house, you would ask how such sound is possible from a black pizza.

If you are only interested in plug and play (which is fine with me), then do not enter. You will end up hating it. It requires a learning curve and dedication.

My 2 cents.

Wayner  8)

WC

WC, unless you already one you will also need a phono-stage to go with the used TT.
Scotty

My Yamaha Integrated has a MC/MM phono input. I will be slowly retiring the amp and will get a stand alone phono input if I still have a turntable.

pansixt

Anyone on a limited budget (or no budget at all), can set themselves up with a vinyl rig and enjoy wonderful sound if that is all they want to do.

If there are any other motives involved, sooner or later there is going to be a problem.

I don't think one could accomplish this without at least some support from others
with more experience. And a lot of patience.

I am not one with large reserves of patience, and over the years there have been times when I wanted to throw my TT out of the window. But somehow I forced myself to be patient and ask for help and advice. (that made me want to throw myself out of the same window). Fortunately, I made it through that time.

Considering this topic is barely over a week old, I didn't see a lot of patience in the attempt to figure out the problems. And I think there were more than one.

Whatever,
I think I'll turn off the computer and put on a record.

Enjoy,

James




jimdgoulding

Okey dokey, switched in my digital front end evening before last.  As I've been listening exclusively to analog for the last seven of so months, it was kind of a shock (you might try this for yourself, those of you who can).  Now, I don't have the latest hi rez capability but some differences between what I do have vs. my analog front end were clearly evident.  My digital playback is quicker and sharper, more lively.  Imagery is more lucid.  Depth of field was outstanding on perhaps the best example live in-the-club CD I own, jazz singer Kellye Gray's The Pink Songs (Proteus Recordings).  The audience was there-there and physically layered outwards from the mic's.  That recording is made very exciting and there is no grain.  I also listened to Mapleshade CD, Clifford Jordan's Live at Ethell's and some other things.   

My digital front end may have more upper mid/lower treble energy than my analog which could account for what I'm trying to describe, that lucidity and sense of space.  My analog by comparsion is a little duller but richer, or warmer in the venacular*, which gives it a sensuality that is particularly appealing on larger classical works, which I listen to a lot. 

I think my digital has more of an identifying sound to it but that serves some kinds of music very well and don't think the third dimension is any better or worse as it compares to my analog rig.  I can listen to analog longer if that tells you anything, but I'm learning how to pick my battles.  One is more exciting, one is more sensual, not that they cancel each other by any means.  I would hate to be without either.  But, if I could only have one, it would depend on if I were just starting to build a music collection or already had one.  As the latter best describes me, it would be analog.  But, aesthetically for my diverse taste in music, that's not as easy as I had thought. 

*phono cartridge is a Grado Sonata Reference tho I'm thinking about a particular MC for the future.
« Last Edit: 4 Oct 2011, 12:09 am by jimdgoulding »

BobM

*phono cartridge is a Grado Sonata Reference tho some moving coils would make for an improvement in speed and sharpness.

One of the things I find tru about digital vs analogue debates is that on an equal dollar spent basis, digital wins. There are cheap players that do quite a good job at digital these days. You can certainly spend far more building your analogue rig and it really doesn;t take too much more for analogue to beat out digital. Moving to a MC cartridge and getting a sufficiently decent phono stage is the first step to douing so IMO. Unfortunately the more you spend in analogue the better it gets, almost without a top end limit. The law of diminishing returns has a much higher breaking point  ($$$) in analogue than in digital.

neobop

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Anyone on a limited budget (or no budget at all), can set themselves up with a vinyl rig and enjoy wonderful sound if that is all they want to do.

If there are any other motives involved, sooner or later there is going to be a problem.

I don't think one could accomplish this without at least some support from others
with more experience. And a lot of patience.

I am not one with large reserves of patience, and over the years there have been times when I wanted to throw my TT out of the window. But somehow I forced myself to be patient and ask for help and advice. (that made me want to throw myself out of the same window). Fortunately, I made it through that time.

Considering this topic is barely over a week old, I didn't see a lot of patience in the attempt to figure out the problems. And I think there were more than one.

Whatever,
I think I'll turn off the computer and put on a record.

Enjoy,

James

Previously, when I referred to the subject matter, I wasn't talking about the OP necessarily, but about getting into records and expectations. Why is it, when I go to a record store in the past couple of yrs, I see mostly young people buying vinyl? To me, that's what's relevant here. Obviously the expectation of a bran new, untried vinyl rig, succeeding in a shootout with a good digital set-up, is inappropriate.

To be honest, I'm really not interested in digital vs analogue debates. I think satisfaction depends on motives, expectations, and most of all, recordings.  If someone listened to my music, and had a decent record player, they would prefer analogue. On the other hand, if I buy a new recording I go digital.
neo

DaveyW

Okey dokey, switched in my digital front end evening before last.  As I've been listening exclusively to analog for the last seven of so months, it was kind of a shock (you might try this for yourself, those of you who can).  Now, I don't have the latest hi rez capability but some differences between what I do have vs. my analog front end were clearly evident.  My digital playback is quicker and sharper, more lively.  Imagery is more lucid.  Depth of field was outstanding on perhaps the best example live in-the-club CD I own, jazz singer Kellye Gray's The Pink Songs (Proteus Recordings).  The audience was there-there and physically layered outwards from the mic's.  That recording is made very exciting and there is no grain.  I also listened to Mapleshade CD, Clifford Jordan's Live at Ethell's and some other things.   

My digital front end may have more upper mid/lower treble energy than my analog which could account for what I'm trying to describe, that lucidity and sense of space.  My analog by comparsion is a little duller but richer, or warmer in the venacular*, which gives it a sensuality that is particularly appealing on larger classical works, which I listen to a lot. 

I think my digital has more of an identifying sound to it but that serves some kinds of music very well and don't think the third dimension is better or worse as it compares to my analog rig.  I can listen to analog longer if that tells you anything, but I'm learning how to pick my battles.  One is more exciting, one is more sensual, not that they cancel each other by any means.  I would hate to be without either.  But, if I could only have one, it would depend on if I were just starting to build a music collection or already had one.  As the latter best describes me, it would be analog.  But, aesthetically for my diverse taste in music, that's not as easy as I had thought. 

*phono cartridge is a Grado Sonata Reference tho I'm thinking about a particular MC for the future.

Hi Jim - Some interesting observations there, much I can relate to.
I went through a similar process back in the mid 90's, focusing on what both my vinyl and CD rig's did best and work out what to do to get the best of both worlds.
Ultimately both went through major revisions.
First up was the replacing of a well respected Marantz SE CD player - incredibly revealing but ultimately tiring to listen too.
Despite 5* press reviews, in comparison to my Ariston TT/Goldring 1042 and live music it was just too lively up top and a little lean in the mids.
I took my amp and speakers to a dealer and we spent a whole afternoon auditioning other CD players, ultimately walking away with a French made Micromega unit which delivered just what I was after.
Much more natural in presentation - that was 1996 - it still sits in the rack.
But the vinyl set up wasn't perfect either. A couple of TT upgrades led to the Sondek which came with a DV 10X5 which I ultimately found fatiguing, so onto numerous cart auditions.
The cart of choice for a long while was the Audio Technica 0C9 ML II which gave me stunning detail and openness - no grain, a very similar description you provide re. your digital set up.
This might be one for you to consider.
Ultimately though (after spending quite a bit of time with Grado's) I found myself missing that more full bodied presentation, no matter how I loaded the AT that slight bright, leanness remained.
After trialling a few other carts I ultimately settled on the Denon DL-S1, all the amazing depth, breadth and detail of the AT with the same pin sharp top end, but with a more fulsome delivery of the mids.
If you like this element of the Grado sound, then it's worth considering this before splashing out an another LOMC, not many deliver a similar character. Definitely worth seeing if you can try before you buy if at all possible.

As things stand my Digital (CD) and Vinyl front end currently go about things in a very similar manner - it took a mighty long time to get there though.

Cheers
Dave


 

timind

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Previously, when I referred to the subject matter, I wasn't talking about the OP necessarily, but about getting into records and expectations. Why is it, when I go to a record store in the past couple of yrs, I see mostly young people buying vinyl? To me, that's what's relevant here. Obviously the expectation of a bran new, untried vinyl rig, succeeding in a shootout with a good digital set-up, is inappropriate.

To be honest, I'm really not interested in digital vs analogue debates. I think satisfaction depends on motives, expectations, and most of all, recordings.  If someone listened to my music, and had a decent record player, they would prefer analogue. On the other hand, if I buy a new recording I go digital.
neo

First off let be me up front and say I ditched my vinyl set up six years ago. The reason? We moved into an apartment while waiting for our house to be built and when I went to move the lps (700 or so) I realized how long it had been since I really listened to them. A waste of closet space.
What I am responding to in your quote Neo is the fact that you see so many young people buying records. This reminds me of when my daughter "got into vinyl." I bought her a tt and set up a system for a beginner in her room. That "fad" lasted all of two months. She has since moved out of the house and is on her own, the 15 lps are in her old closet.
My point is this, vinyl is "cool" so young people gotta have it. Once the coolness wears off they throw it away like an out of style pair of shoes. The ipod is so convenient for their needs vinyl hasn't got a chance with 99.9% of them.
I have been following this thread form the beginning also and would have told the op to run away from vinyl accept he asked for positive reinforcement which I had none to give.
My take is exactly the same as Wayner's; it takes a lot of work to get audiophile sound from vinyl. I don't think the op was predisposed for this and is better off loving his digital.
The vinyl vs digital debate is boring at this point. At any level there is no better, only personal preference.

My 2 cents.

bside123

Why does there need to be an analog vs. digital debate at all?  :scratch:

Both can be done well; both can be done poorly. Both can be very satisfying with a very moderate investment and a few sober expectations. In both mediums, the time and patience to set things up correctly really pays off.

I love music. I also love holding a record jacket in my hands, reading the credits, pondering the cover art, and musing over times gone by... even if the record is noisy, isn't perfect and the cover smells like mildew. I love the warmth and romance.

I love music. I also love throwing on a CD or playing a digital file. The music is so immediately convenient, the selection available is absolutely amazing and easy to store and the fast, digital slam is flat-out exciting. I love the impact and eroticism.

I really enjoy the hunt for old vinyl and seeing what is being rereleased or introduced on new vinyl. I also really appreciate being able to get just about whatever I want on CD or digital, just about whenever I want.

Good music on a good sounding rig is thrilling in any format. Glitches in gear, equipment breakdowns, bad sounding music, and mismatched expectations are all frustrating and nerve racking in any format.

My 2 Cents  :thumb:

 

Mitsuman

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Why does there need to be an analog vs. digital debate at all?  :scratch:

Both can be done well; both can be done poorly. Both can be very satisfying with a very moderate investment and a few sober expectations. In both mediums, the time and patience to set things up correctly really pays off.

I love music. I also love holding a record jacket in my hands, reading the credits, pondering the cover art, and musing over times gone by... even if the record is noisy, isn't perfect and the cover smells like mildew. I love the warmth and romance.

I love music. I also love throwing on a CD or playing a digital file. The music is so immediately convenient, the selection available is absolutely amazing and easy to store and the fast, digital slam is flat-out exciting. I love the impact and eroticism.

I really enjoy the hunt for old vinyl and seeing what is being rereleased or introduced on new vinyl. I also really appreciate being able to get just about whatever I want on CD or digital, just about whenever I want.

Good music on a good sounding rig is thrilling in any format. Glitches in gear, equipment breakdowns, bad sounding music, and mismatched expectations are all frustrating and nerve racking in any format.

My 2 Cents  :thumb:

Well put. :beer:

TONEPUB


geezer

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Why does there need to be an analog vs. digital debate at all?  :scratch:

Both can be done well; both can be done poorly. Both can be very satisfying with a very moderate investment and a few sober expectations. In both mediums, the time and patience to set things up correctly really pays off.

I love music. I also love holding a record jacket in my hands, reading the credits, pondering the cover art, and musing over times gone by... even if the record is noisy, isn't perfect and the cover smells like mildew. I love the warmth and romance.

I love music. I also love throwing on a CD or playing a digital file. The music is so immediately convenient, the selection available is absolutely amazing and easy to store and the fast, digital slam is flat-out exciting. I love the impact and eroticism.

I really enjoy the hunt for old vinyl and seeing what is being rereleased or introduced on new vinyl. I also really appreciate being able to get just about whatever I want on CD or digital, just about whenever I want.

Good music on a good sounding rig is thrilling in any format. Glitches in gear, equipment breakdowns, bad sounding music, and mismatched expectations are all frustrating and nerve racking in any format.

My 2 Cents  :thumb:

I don't see this thread as an analogue vs. digital debate in the sense that one side is denigrating the other. What I see is each person explaining his/her preference, and why. It has been (mainly) a nicely civil discourse. Would that all posters did as well!

bside123

Here's a positive and convincing message from right here on AC:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=99193.msg998412;topicseen#new

OzarkTom

At the heart of the dig vs. analog argument is this opinion of some that analog reproduction is more organic sounding/feeling.  A more organic medium?  Can someone elucidate or would comment on this?  I don't know the importance of this on all music or to all listeners, but it kind of sounds or feels that way to me with my gear, I must admit.

I have been a hobbyist for 40 years and agree with bside.

I have taken a CD and album of the exact same recording. On one song the album is better, the next song the CD is better. Is this the fault with the process of the recording companies?

I have CD recordings zipped to my computer that sounds as natural as any album ever issued. But I also have recordings of CD's that will rip your ears off. I have albums that will also. I do feel digital has more high frequency information, so a bad recording on digital will sound worst than what is on the album. Quality of the recordings in either format makes the biggest difference in your satisfaction. With the convenience of digital, I listen to music a lot more.

jimdgoulding

I made an incorrect choice of words in my post above, the correct word is sensuous, not sensual.  Having listened to digital recordings for the past three nights, it popped into my head almost immediately after putting on an analog opera recording of mine.  That's what's missing for me from my digital and evident on analog recordings like this which are important to me.  Thanks.

geezer

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I made an incorrect choice of words in my post above, the correct word is sensuous, not sensual.  Having listened to digital recordings for the past three nights, it popped into my head almost immediately after putting on an analog opera recording of mine.  That's what's missing for me from my digital and evident on analog recordings like this which are important to me.  Thanks.

I've seen one or two opera DVDs where both apply.

Berndt

I heard a Steve Hoffman lecture where his postulate regarding digital vs vinyl is that vinyl has a more pleasing distortion.
The case for tubes as well perhaps.

woodsyi

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I heard a Steve Hoffman lecture where his postulate regarding digital vs vinyl is that vinyl has a more pleasing distortion.
The case for tubes as well perhaps.

One can't disprove a postulate as it is an assumption of truth.  One could disagree but I would respect Steve Hoffman's positions.  The fact that he is postulating would suggest that there is no empirical method to prove this...

Berndt

Forgive me, I dunno if postulate was the proper word use, it is just the word that popped into my mind. But, Mr Hoffman, does have a way with presenting his viewpoints as fact...

orthobiz

Yeah. Right. What everyone said.

Paul