[Dan Banquer]

Gentleman: It's not how many tubes you have, (clips or not) it's how many heatsinks. To all the tube lovers out there I have a thought for the day for you:

          NATURE ABHORS A VACUUM

[DVV]

Gentleman: It's not how many tubes you have, (clips or not) it's how many heatsinks. To all the tube lovers out there I have a thought for the day for you:

          NATURE ABHORS A VACUUM

Er, um, Dan? The war is about to happen over there, in Iraq, not here, my trusty SS fellow.

Actually, as far as I know, there's no such thing as a vacuum in nature, even space is full of loose hydrogen molecules. Vacuum is man-made, and therefore unnatural.

But seriously, people, let's not fall into the usual trap of flaming each other, we have it too good here, let's try not to waste it senselessly. Please, for the sake of all of us.

Cheers,
DVV

[DVV]

 Well okay, so I screwed up twice!  I have no idea what you're talking about DVV, but it's getting clearer...    

We all started from utter darkness, brother Nate, and walked into the light (of audio).

 So for my own information and the complete and utter boredom of everyone else reading this, how does science fiction author Phillip K. Dick relate to my quoted comment that follows?

Aren't those the ones where if you knock those clips off the top you'll electrocute yourself of the spot? Looks like there's 16 times the fun on that baby! Those wicked cool Transcendent OTL amps are also thick with tubes. Anyone owning one of those surely must be compensating...

I thank you for your indulgence!

Well, pick up Dick's book "Vulcan's Hammer" and you'll see the similarity. Uncanny.

Cheers,
DVV

[Dan Banquer]

Believe it or not that was one of the favorite lines from an old Magnetron Engineer I used to work with. THis gentleman worked for Litton on developing the first commercial magnetrons for microwave ovens. We both worked together on the first (or so I am told) airborn programable radar transmitters. We did ten of these for NATO; they use it for training purposes.  It was one of the toughest projects I have ever worked on. I should also note that the transmitter used four magnetrons, two x band and two ku band, to deliver 100Kw of power.

[gonefishin]

To gonefishin: Take a minute to read the beginnig of my FAQ's and you won't just be laughing. You'll be rolling on the floor at how stupid most of the audio business really is. This should put the issue of distortion in proper perspective.
http://www.redesignsaudio.com/faqs.html

   Hey ya Dan...it just made me chuckle a bit.  You won't get no arguments from me...heck, I've got a SET amp...you think I'm going to agrue about a little distortion?  naw

   First off...let me say that I am not an amp designer...I listen to amps and enjoy this hobby of audio...that's basically it      From my perspective it seems like we( the hobbiest) have brought many of these problems on ourselves.  From my seat I've seen people get obsessed with certain numbers...like distortion in amps...wattage ratings and so on.  These numbers alone may have been in specs of a good performing amplifier (or speaker...or...)   But these numbers were just a result of a well designed amplifier.  (I think) the problem, then, comes when we demand other amps (or speakers) to have these same "numbers".  Soon...instead of (possibly) arriving at these same numbers thru a good design...amps (or speakers...or...) are built to have these numbers...which can soon lead to building the amp for numbers only...instead of building a good design that produce a good sound.

   (did that make sense?)

   I hope you didn't take my other post as an attack...but it did put a smile on my face  

  take care>>>>>>>

[Dan Banquer]

Tell gone fishin, why is it that you think that hobbyists have brought it on themselves?
My take on is that most of you were given some of the worst advice possible, and from people who knew as little or less than you.  Trust me when I tell you that I have wasted too much time on what some expert advised me instead of listening to my textbooks and following common sense.

I'm really glad the thread about acoustic room treatment has started. This is the first thing audiophiles need to pay close attention to: EVERYTHING ELSE IS SECONDARY
What's your take on it?

[DVV]

Heart warming!

Stalinist solidstaters embracing Maoist tubers.

Peace, brothers!

Cheers,
DVV

[nathanm]

I think Dan ought to create his own new rant post.  Sounds like the guy's got a lot on his mind!  

Now it's time for nitpicking.  I read that "FAQ" on his website.  Now call me crazy, but unless Dave asked him the same question over and over again that looked a helluva lot like an interview rather than a FAQ!  I mean, let's be honest here.  Regardless, numerous points in there did catch my eye and I'd like to hear more.

I also checked out that RE gear.  I now perceive a company with the front panel smarts to build the dream car stereo which I so desire.  I mean, look at that fucking volume knob!  It's like the wheel of fortune! Heh! If IRD doesn't come through for me, I'm putting my money on Dan.  Someone has to save us fer crying out loud!  Please!!!

[gonefishin]

Tell gone fishin, why is it that you think that hobbyists have brought it on themselves?
My take on is that most of you were given some of the worst advice possible, and from people who knew as little or less than you.  Trust me when I tell you that I have wasted too much time on what some expert advised me instead of listening to my textbooks and following common sense.

I'm really glad the thread about acoustic room treatment has started. This is the first thing audiophiles need to pay close attention to: EVERYTHING ELSE IS SECONDARY
What's your take on it?

   ok then...later >>>>>>>*shakes head*  

[Dan Banquer]

Nathan: The FAQ's were written in that style because myself and a few other folks thought it might be easier for many people to understand.  
The Six Channel Pre Amp has to have a large knob because of the torque required to turn 6 decks of 24 position rotary switch. If I went to a knob half that size there would be a bunch of folks really pissed at me. The present size makes it very easy to turn.
 Dejan;
          Try and say Stalinist Solid Stater 10 times really fast.

[eric the red]

This has to be one of the longest manufacturer's threads on an audio site that I think I've ever read for it not being a manufacturer's forum with posts from a manufacturer who doesn't believe in manufacturer's forums

[DVV]

This has to be one of the longest manufacturer's threads on an audio site that I think I've ever read for it not being a manufacturer's forum with posts from a manufacturer who doesn't believe in manufacturer's forums

Perhaps so, but Dan is making his position perfectly clear, and I venture to guess, trying hard to do it with as little hype as possible. However, he and I are facing a wall of hype built over the last 10 years or so by the joint efforts of amny manufacturers who stand to gain much by that hype.

Hewre's an example - read any publication and you'll see some tests saying this SS is good, and that SS is just so-so, and that third should be avoided. Fair enough, I'll go along with that.

But tell me, when you have you seen a group test of tube audio with conclusions like that? It's come to the point where nobody DARES say tube audio is just so-so at best, and is often outrageously expensive for what it delivers.

THIS is what Dan and I are on about - nobody ever said tube audio couldn't sound good, we all know there are some wonderful products out there, but we (Dan and I) are against this automatic judgement: "if tube, then good, if solid state, then bad, or so-so at best".

Cheers,
DVV

[JohnR]

"if tube, then good, if solid state, then bad, or so-so at best".

Who said that?

I had a Cary tube amp from the early 90's, did not like it one bit. I own AKSA amps now, and like 'em a lot. I'm still a tube fan. Right now I'm listening to a pair of vintage Dynaco Mk III amps with a Triode Electronics driver board. You can carry on all you like about their supposed flaws but that won't stop me from enjoying listening to them.

JohnR

[Dan Banquer]

John; you have brought out a very interesting point. At this time I believe the tube amplifier is only for the hobbyist, and by hobbyist I mean someone who has the tools, time and ability to do their own maintenance, repairs, and upgrades.
You will learn a lot in the process about electronics as they apply, and if you are thorough in your learning you will come to a point where you will hit the wall so to speak with tubes and start turning your attention to Solid State.
My real beef here is that the average consumer does not know what they are in for when they purchase tube equipment. They are generally not told about the required maintenance or the cost of the maintenance. My bet is that if you post the above question you might get some very interesting answers.
Over the years in talking with my customers I have encountered some real horror stories about their tube equipment and the real price they pay, and I will give two pertinent examples.
One gentleman called me with this problem: He had a low wattage single ended tube amp trying to drive an 84db/spl speaker. My first question was who was the idiot retailer who sold it to him with a speaker like that.
I then proceeded to inform him of his choices. Change the amp or change the speakers. I noted that he might wish to save the single ended tube amp for use as a headphone amplifier.
Another customer of mine has been in a battle with Melos about his tube pre amplifier. The first time he sent it back he was informed that even though the unit was under warranty that it would not apply because the company was now out of business and reforming. The new company had the same people as the old company according to this gentleman. He paid for the repair and the unit came back with the same problem. To date the problem has still not been rectified.  The problem according to my customer was that the unit was very wideband and was extremely prone to RF pick up which resulted in system interference. This is, as you probably know, a relatively simple problem to correct.
I think I have made my point John.

[DVV]

"if tube, then good, if solid state, then bad, or so-so at best".

Who said that?

John, when I want to blame anyone in particular, I will put down his/her name VERY clearly.

I was referring to what you can read between the lines in many an ad by tube audio mahufacturers. Pick up any mag carrying those ads and read carefuly only a few of them.

I had a Cary tube amp from the early 90's, did not like it one bit. I own AKSA amps now, and like 'em a lot. I'm still a tube fan. Right now I'm listening to a pair of vintage Dynaco Mk III amps with a Triode Electronics driver board. You can carry on all you like about their supposed flaws but that won't stop me from enjoying listening to them.

JohnR

Nobody's trying to stop you enjoying those James Bongiorno designs John, the last tube audio he ever did as a member of Dynaco or otherwise. And you really shouldn't take it so personally, nobody is saying you should have one and love the other. Both formats exist, both work, therefore both are valid subjects for discussion, no more, no less.

Cheers,
DVV

[audiojerry]

Even though I am extremely happy with my Audio Research tube amp, I am well aware of a very significant downside: the eventual replacement of 16 Sovtec 6550C output tubes and 6 input/driver tubes. I haven't priced it, but it will be somewhere between 1500 and 2000 bucks. Even though my ARC is very well built and extremely reliable (bias remains dead on for the past year), I do not look forward to the day when I will need to replace the tubes. In addition the cost of operation is very high: 600 watts when turned on and just sitting there, and 990 to 1200 when playing music. I'm too afraid to find out how it affects my electric bill.
These facts alone is causing me to consider replacing it with something more affordable. I'm not ruling out solid state, but I haven't found one yet to my complete liking. I was very impressed with Jack's Van Alstine hybrid.

In case anyone is interested, here are the posted specs for the MKII version, which is an update to my MKI version.

VT200 MKII Specifications:
 
POWER OUTPUT: 200 watts per channel continuous from 20Hz to 20kHz. 1kHz total harmonic distortion typically 1% at 200 watts, below .01% at 1 watt.
 
Approximate actual power available at "clipping" 210 watts (1kHz). (Note that actual power output is dependent upon both line voltage and "condition" i. e.: if power line has high distortion, maximum power will be affected adversely, although from a listening standpoint this is not very critical.)

POWER BANDWIDTH: (-3dB points) 12Hz to 120kHz.

FREQUENCY RESPONSE: (-3dB points at 1 watt) .5Hz to 200 kHz.

INPUT SENSITIVITY: 2.5V RMS (Bal or SE) for rated output. (27 dB gain into 16 ohms.)
INPUT IMPEDANCE: 200K ohms Balanced, 100K ohms Single-ended.

OUTPUT TAPS: 1, 2, 4, 8, 16 ohms.

OUTPUT REGULATION: Approximately 0.8dB 16 ohm load to open circuit (Damping factor approximately 11).

OVERALL NEGATIVE FEEDBACK: 10dB.

SLEW RATE: 25 volts/microsecond.

RISE TIME: 1.5 microseconds.

HUM & NOISE: Less than 0.2mV RMS < 109dB below rated output (IHF weighted, input shorted, 16 ohm output).

POWER SUPPLY ENERGY STORAGE: Approximately 674 joules.
POWER REQUIREMENTS: 105-125VAC 60Hz (210-250VAC 50Hz) 990 watts at rated output, 1200 watts maximum, 680 watts at "idle".
TUBES REQUIRED: 8 - Matched pair 6550C- Power Output; 6 - 6H30 Driver.

DIMENSIONS: 19" (48.3 cm) W x 10.5" (26.7 cm) H x 23.6" (60.0 cm) D. Handles extend 1.5" (3.8 cm) forward.

WEIGHT: 118 lbs. (46.5 kg) Net; 148 lbs. (58.3 kg) Shipping.

Specifications subject to change without notice

[KevinW]

Even though I am extremely happy with my Audio Research tube amp, I am well aware of a very significant downside: the eventual replacement of 16 Sovtec 6550C output tubes and 6 input/driver tubes. I haven't priced it, but it will be somewhere between 1500 and 2000 bucks.

Jerry,  your figure seems quite high to me.  The Valve Art 6550 is a *very* nice tube, and costs about $20/ea.  The Valve Art KT88 is even better (cleaner, more detailed, not quite as warm), and costs about $30/ea.  I *really* like the Valve Art KT88, as this is a genelex copy.  That leaves a lot of room for expensive NOS driver tubes, but should still fall comfortably under $1k to retube.

In addition the cost of operation is very high: 600 watts when turned on and just sitting there, and 990 to 1200 when playing music. I'm too afraid to find out how it affects my electric bill.

The average cost of power in WI is about $.08/kW-hr.  So you are spending about 8 cents per hour to run your amp.  Now that's some cheap entertainment, if you ignore the up-front costs

However, this is why digital amps are so interesting... great sound, and 90% or better efficiency.  Your amp is about 20% efficient, so 80% of the power consumed goes to heating your room.  Not bad in the winter, but maybe not so great in the summer...

[eric the red]

Point taken DVV-the world of home audio is filled with pseudo-experts who can't wait to give anyone and everyone their unvarnished opinions on everything. Maybe you don't read much critism of tube gear because tube gear is in vogue now

[DVV]

Point taken DVV-the world of home audio is filled with pseudo-experts who can't wait to give anyone and everyone their unvarnished opinions on everything. Maybe you don't read much critism of tube gear because tube gear is in vogue now

Vogue I wouldn't mind, it comes and goes and the world moves on. The problem is that tube audio is being hyped as the ONLY possible audio, and that goes way above vogue, even slander. To me, this is premeditated crime, not for the guillotine, but 10 years down the river surely.

It is misleading and untrue, far above "guided logic" because it is being served as the gospel truth.

Now, manufacturers I'm not worried about, because it will backlash sooner or later, what goes up must come down at some point, but what I do mind is that the general public, ignorant of the techical details, is being fleeced in far too many cases. I don't want to forget the true believers, companies like Audio Research, C-J, VTL and a handful of others, who have always believed in tubes.

But if you look at their ads, you will NOT see hype, they do not stoop that low because they are good, and they know it. In other words, if Jerry offered me his Audio Research gear, I'd swim over there for it because its makers are people with a well deserved reputation. But regarding many products from upstart companies, I have strong reservations. I will give them the benefit of doubt, of course, but experience so far has shown that the vast number of offerings is merely so-so and definitely not worth the asking price.

In a nutshell, some tube audio (just as some SS audio) is really good and well worth having, most is so-so and some is bad. All I object to is exclusivity on either side. If it ain't tubes, it don't play music; if it's toobies, heck, it CAN'T move dem dere speaker boys. Bull to both camps.

Cheers,
DVV

[JohnR]

DVV, I don't read high-end rags any more, but last time I looked they were full of misleading ads for just about everything. I had no idea that tubes had become such an evil influence all by themselves Too bad because they're a lot of fun. Why don't you show us an actual example of this horrendous crime that's being perpetrated right under our noses? I'm curious now.

Kevin, Jerry's quoting Audio Research prices. A Rolls owner is expected to pay $200 per hour for having his car waxed.

Of course, very few tube amps have 4 pairs of output tubes per side. You only actually need one pair, and you can use a 6dB more efficient speaker to make up the difference. Problem solved

Dan, I read somewhere that the problem with using anecdotes to support one's point is that you can always be "out-anecdoted." I don't think ignorant or not-quite-honest salespeople, or lousy service, is in any way confined to tubes. True, tubes are more "tweaky" than solid state, but it's not like it's actually *difficult* to change a tube...

JohnR