[Dan Banquer]

Dejan;
         Have you ever tried any of the Hiquphon tweeters from Denmark? Fried had these custom made for him years ago, the new stuff is essentially the same design with a beefed up magnet. Very positive results here. Itzhak Perlman sounds like Itzhak Perlman. Damn he gets a great tone from his violin. Try the smaller domes if you can.

[nathanm]

I would have to give kudos to room treatment as well.  For one, forget about speakers, if you are in a very bare, live room it sounds bad just talking in there!  Just clap your hands in any typical painted drywall room and it will ring and make ugly echoes.  But I would like to hear what a very diffuse-treated room sounds like though.  In my own space I've got the absorbtion goin', but not any diffusion yet.  Uneven rooms with openings on one side and walls on the other also seem to be less than ideal for good imaging.

I don't think any of this really has much to do with tubes vs. SS though!  I am not growing fond of tubes to "correct" any sonic problems per se, I just like the idea of using old, outdated technology.  All to often humans are earger to lurch forward towards the future throwing away the old good ideas as they go.  

Show me a solid state amp with fake glowing tubes on the top and I'd probably buy it, though.  

[markC]

I have come to like the hybrid sound of tubes at the source and tube pre with ss amp pushing it all out.

[DVV]

Dejan;
         Have you ever tried any of the Hiquphon tweeters from Denmark? Fried had these custom made for him years ago, the new stuff is essentially the same design with a beefed up magnet. Very positive results here. Itzhak Perlman sounds like Itzhak Perlman. Damn he gets a great tone from his violin. Try the smaller domes if you can.

No, in all honesty, I've never even seen them live outside a pair of Fried speakers.

Cheers,
DVV

[DVV]

Not in slightest, if you recognize that there are many MANY pathways to achieve the goal of a pleasurable listening experience.  Why do you think people preach so much about system synergy?  Who would want to put monster truck tires  on a ferrari, or racing slicks on a Land Rover?  I can think of plenty of speakers that would sound magical with tubes and like $hit using solid state.  A 16ohm impedance lowther will certainly restrict a SS amp.  Also, just because tube amps are in the minority, and therefore the majority of speakers are designed with solid-state in mind, doesn't mean that tubes are inherently limited. ...

Wrong Kevin, I am not biased against or in favor of any technology, as long as it makes good music. Frankly, I don't much care how it's made, as long as it works well.

It's true I am much better acquainted with solid state then with tubes; small wonder, ever since I took up soldering in the late 60-ies, I have worked with SS, not tubes.

I have also heard some tube audio gear which I thought was truly wonderful, outstandingly good, just as I have heard some SS stuff for which I'd say the same. And the opposite, of course, both tube and SS stuff which was bad, poor designs.

My only objection to tube audio has, in fact, nothing to do with actual tubes, but with the marketing hype behind it. These days, we are told from many sources that if it's not tube it doesn't really work well, it can't because only tubes are good for sound, and by extension, all tube audio is automatically better than anything else.

I am aware tubes are hardly responsible for this as devices or as a technology, nor is it the fault of tubes that quite a few people buy something tubed and convince themselves that it's better sounding, because hey, it's tubes. My experience has it that in tube audio, more or less the same general rules apply as in SS - most products are just so-so, and there are some which are truly outstanding. True for both technologies.

I don't believe any technology is inherently better or worse than any other in terms of final effects, in this case audio. Some are more practical then others, some are more expensive than others, and so forth - but better by default? Never.

Cheers,
DVV

[tmd]

Although everyone has an opinion and I like to read them all, my thanks go to Kevin Whilden for bringing some balance to the comments made by Dan. While I am in neither 'camp', I doubt that very many tube owners are doing it to mask bad rooms or that all tube amps will do that anyway. Maybe a poll is in order on this one? I am genuinely interested in the results.
I would say though that for some people, they buy equipment (not particulary tubed) which sounds better in a room rather than make the room sound better out of necessity. I have never found any room treatment that has a high enough WAF for my wife  It is also impractical for lots of people for many other reasons.
It does make one think though. If you could have a more acoustically correct room all of a sudden, would you go out and buy a different set of speakers or amp or whole system? I sincerely doubt it myself. I have some experience playing around with room treatment in my last place and my system just got better and better the more treatment I added.
Neil.

[nathanm]

A bad room is a bad room wether you're playing music through tubes, through solid state, through a Victrola or if a musician is playing an instrument right there.  The gear can't break the laws of physics. If anything the tonality is the difference between the two genres, not anything that would affect room reflections.  It's more frequency rather than time in my opinion.

But Dejan is right, they market tubes as a cure-all for everything.  This is especially egregious in the recording field if you follow that stuff.  They're always eager to throw a tube in there.  The Art DI/O is a prime example.

[DVV]

A bad room is a bad room wether you're playing music through tubes, through solid state, through a Victrola or if a musician is playing an instrument right there.  The gear can't break the laws of physics.

Wanna bet? You obviously haven't read some advertisment materials.

 If anything the tonality is the difference between the two genres, not anything that would affect room reflections.  It's more frequency rather than time in my opinion.

But Dejan is right, they market tubes as a cure-all for everything.  This is especially egregious in the recording field if you follow that stuff.  They're always eager to throw a tube in there.  The Art DI/O is a prime example.

I don't mind them doing it if they feel like it, what I mind is the hype that goes with it - aha-ha, we slapped some tubes in, NOW it sounds great! And most of the time, it just sounds different, but not better.

Not that the tube camp is much better - what, solid state? Yuck! It can't sound good, nothin' but tubes can ever sound good.

What ails me is that it's the people buying the stuff who are forced into the role of being victims. One could argue that it's their own fault, but I think most people will succumb under such tremendous advertising pressure, plus magazine bombardment. In the meanwhile, quite a few are making heavy profits by fleecing the sheep.

Cheers,
DVV

[KevinW]

But Dejan is right, they market tubes as a cure-all for everything.  This is especially egregious in the recording field if you follow that stuff.  They're always eager to throw a tube in there.  The Art DI/O is a prime example.

Isn't it funny how everything comes around full circle like?  How long ago was it that SS was the savior to distortion-filled tubes?  Sometime back in the 60's or 70's, though only having been brought into this world in 1971 I don't know for sure.     Then tubes started a revival sometime in the early 90's and have been steadily growing in reptutation ever since.  I haven't personally noticed any over-hyping of tubes, although I certainly have done my share to explain to the average person what is interesting about tubes.  Most people are either skeptical, or totally unaware of why they should be interested.  It is fun to explain what tubes are and how they work.  I would not call this hype or marketing tubes as a cure-all.  Now that I am selling tube gear, I tend to pitch them as a classic solution to creating very pleasing sound for not a lot of money.  Especially in terms of sound value per dollar spent.

Regarding the DIO, it was not designed as a home audio DAC, but rather as multi-purpose tool for musicians.  In the musician world, tubes never disappeared, because they work SO WELL in guitar amps.  Just ask Santana, or countless other guitarists. The reason they are favored is because they can distort in very pleasing ways.  This is perhaps the one huge advantage of tubes vs SS.... when distorted purposefully, tubes sound sweet and warm, whereas distorted SS sounds screechy.  If I recall correctly, the tube in the DIO is designed to add the tube warmth to recordings by adding distortion on purpose.

kevin whilden
solar hifi
http://www.solarhifi.com

[nathanm]

The DIO has a subtle sagging\compression effect from the "Warmth" dial rather than what I perceive as "distortion".  But in the hifi playback application if you run the digital out from your CD player the tube isn't even involved at all.  It only works if you loop the SPDIF and run analog ins and outs.  Kind of a silly implementation if you ask me, and somewhat bordering on false advertising.

[KevinW]

Nathan,
Thanks for educating me on the DIO... guess I should experiment with one before saying too much.

Dejan,
I am in complete agreement that over-hyping tubes as the cure-all is definitely wrong.  I haven't seen this, but I stopped reading the magazines a while back anyway.  Not much information there except for pretty pictures of amps, speakers, and ecouragement to buy the "latest and greatest".

kevin whilden
solar hifi
http://www.solarhifi.com

[hibuckhobby]

It could also be said, that good...really good SS designs sound more like tubes    
I, like AudioJerry have owned more equipment than I really can justify over the 30 odd years I've been in this avocation.  I too, find that all other things being equal, I prefer the sound of tube amplification.  There are tubes that sound very uncolored...the Audio Research amps of recent years come to mind.

There are also tube amps that will rock the house in the bass department...the big VTL's come to mind.  Still, the magic for me is in the midrange.  There is a natural quality to voices that for me, few SS amps can do as well as tubes.  Regarding damping factor...it's highly over-rated.  If all you do is listen to kettle drums or highly amplified rock, you may want a big SS amp.  It will take a grip on your woofers and it just MIGHT add the hardness to the highs you heard at the live concert.

I'm an old rocker, but I spend more time these days listening for a well recorded standup bass than I do trying to follow Sting's basslines.

Part of this hobby is that not only is the holy grail unattainable, it is defined in different ways by different persons.

my .02
Bob

[JohnR]

One of the reasons I will not have a manufacturers forum is that I have the freedom to speak out as an indiviual on subjects such as this.

This statement is both misleading and incorrect. Since Dan has chosen to post this in the forum, despite my going to great lengths to try and explain the rule (below) to him, I feel I need to clarify what this is about.

What Dan has an issue with is this rule:

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/faq.php#14

I quote it here in its entirety:

What are the rules for manufacturers?
We do not like to place a lot of complicated rules on people or their use of the site, believing that common sense and respect for others goes much further than rules. There is however one rule that must be stated so it is clear from the get-go: a manufacturer must not make negative comments about other manufacturers present on this site, or about their products. We are sorry but this (should it occur) causes way too many difficulties all around. This rule is very strict and breaking it may result in your Circle being shut down.

The purpose of the rule is to try and avoid squabbling and bitching between manufacturers, which, unless one side has the balls to eventually admit wrong regardless of actual fault, generally turns out to be a lose-lose situation. It is not intended to prevent anyone from expressing their opinions, or to censor manufacturers, as Dan quite unfairly implies. That is the misleading part of his post.

The incorrect part of his post is that him *not* having a circle here does not excuse him from the usual constraints on behavior required for the useful functioning of any gathering of people. As indicated in the text above, this rule shouldn't even be needed. However, experience (unfortunately) indicates that it is. What is silliest about all of this is that Dan has never posted anything that comes even remotely close to contravening the rule, that I have seen; even when he believes he is being a wild-eyed freedom-loving rebel, he's actually pretty tame compared to the kind of shit the rule is meant to address. I said as much in email to him but he insists on continuing to misinterpret the rule anyway. Whether or not he chooses to have a circle here is, of course, his business; nonetheless, I do not want other people to take Dan's misleading justification as representative of the truth.

And, as with all (most) things on this forum, they can be changed by discussion and polling in Town Square. If someone is concerned about this rule, then they can start a thread there, and I will explain in detail the background that caused this rule to come into existence.

Regards

JohnR

[Dan Banquer]

My apologies John R. I guess I am used to the constraints set on AA at the cable asylum. Then again I have yet to really go after "High End" cable marketing. I promise to do my best at keeping it factual as I can.
   As far as the rest of the arguement on tubes vs. solid state, I can say this. Every time I go hear the tube equipment that's out there these days I am always aware of the noise and distortion that they create. Much of solid state has noise problems as far as I am concerned, but one tube amp came pretty close to being decent. It was a rebuilt McIntosh circa 1955. He still needed some better tubes but that unit was not half bad. I gave my friend the ultimate compliment. It was almost as good as solid state. I guess I now know how McIntosh got it's reputation. To bad other designers have not followed suit.

[Brad]

Ok Dan, we get the hint.
You don't like tubes.

Some of us do - and the implied insults you keep leaving have gotten a little thick.

Admittedly, we should just blindly(deafly?) follow your decree of audio....it would save a lot of arguing.    

I for one will take my tubes and listen happily.  Sorry if that bothers you.

[nathanm]

Now now, Brad is just upset cause he's been following kids around the zoo all day and nobody will give him anything to eat!  

What's wrong with implied insults? Those are the BEST kind! But seriously, I don't think Dan meant anything personal and he wasn't being insulting or dogmatic.  Besides, what's the fun in a tube vs. solid state argument without the arguing?  

[Brad]

Now now, Brad is just upset cause he's been following kids around the zoo all day and nobody will give him anything to eat!  

What's wrong with implied insults? Those are the BEST kind! But seriously, I don't think Dan meant anything personal and he wasn't being insulting or dogmatic.  Besides, what's the fun in a tube vs. solid state argument without the arguing?  

Dammit Nathan - you try eating stale goat chow fed to you by sticky children and see if you don't get a little cranky  

I guess I see your point about "Mr. Flat Earth" - he wasn't singling anyone out, just making insipid generalizations.   Maybe all of the harsh SS amps he's listened to have permanently altered his synapses?  

[eric the red]

After reading Dan's comments about room treatment, I cut a 4' x 8' foam mattress pad in half, covered it with half a fleece blanket I stole off of an airplane, and tacked the whole mess up behind my speakers. I'm shocked at the change.  What now seems like less bass response is really just the lack of low frequencies bouncing off my rear walls (from my speakers powered by a TUBE integrated ) plus the whole sound of my rig has softened up considerably. I wish I could try the same treatment with my sidewalls but can't at this time.  I had some AH noise killers in place (a glorified resistor in a pretty package from Upscale Audio) to try and kill the glare I was experiencing before the foam treatment, and they are now going up on Agon. Wow!

[Brad]

ETR - which airline?
I can see a whole discussion starting up there:
Continental fleece v. American Air cotton.....

[eric the red]

I believe it was the mid-fi fleece used on a Southwest Airlines flight last year when I flew to Boston. For some reason I'm thinking there is definitely more "air" around the notes (23 hits in the 5 minutes since I posted the noise killer ad on Agon)