Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond

GentleBender · « **Reply #1240 on:** 25 Nov 2015, 04:00 pm »

Quote from: neobop on 24 Nov 2015, 11:29 pm

You're still probably fine with 100pF. You can determine what's best by listening. If the capacitance is too low it will sound distant, rolled off - depressed in the treble region and loss of extreme high end. If capacitance is too high it will sound too bright upper mids to treble, with even less extension.

neo

I haven't had much time to dedicate to critical listening, but that is exactly what I will do. So far switching between 250pF and 100pF, I have leaned toward 100pF. This afternoon I should have enough time to figure out what I like best. Does raising the gain from 40db to 46db have any known negative effects? After an hour or two of straight listening I find myself almost maxing out the volume on the amp, maybe a few drinks help with this. If I bump the gain up a bit, will it hurt the sound or is this something to experiment with as well?

neobop · « **Reply #1241 on:** 25 Nov 2015, 06:54 pm »

If you're nearly maxed out on the volume control, by all means increase the gain. The only possible negative effect is to overload the input. In this case I think you would be safe from that. I'm guessing you'll also get an increase in SQ, but you'll have to tell me.
neo

neobop · « **Reply #1242 on:** 4 Dec 2015, 02:30 pm »

A bit of controversy on the Agon MM/MI thread regarding the JVC carts, resulted in a request for any additional information. I thought it might be easier to show information here. A recent thread on Karma did yield a little:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/jvcs-4md-10x-possibly-the-goofiest-looking-shibata-cartridge.690211/

http://www.owarano.jp/HP_5asobitai/HP_5%20cartridge1/cartridge%20victor/cartridge%20victor.htm

neo

griffithds · « **Reply #1243 on:** 4 Dec 2015, 05:24 pm »

Hi Neo,

Thanks for the links. Yes, different group of folks over there. One in particular is starting to spread his B/S again.
Do you know anything about that JVC Laboratory line of cartridges? Is it a separate company like Highphonic was with Denor or just a upscale division like Signet was to Audio Technica?
I'd actually appreciate any information in this regards. I've done a search and find it hard to discover any thing relevant. It amazes me sometimes just how much information is "NOT' available on the internet considering I have no problem discovering what my neighbor had for breakfast by just reading his Facebook posts!

What a World we live in!
Regards,

neobop · « **Reply #1244 on:** 4 Dec 2015, 09:53 pm »

Hi Griff,
We're going back to the '70s, before there was an internet. It's especially hard to find info on models not imported to N. America. It seems like the 4MD-10X and 20X were the first Victor 4-ch carts. Apparently they had different bodies that used the same stylus. Not sure when they came out with X1,Z1. Didn't you have a link to an old promo sheet for them, you posted on Agon?

I'm also not sure about the laboratory series. AFAIK, most JVC MMs were made by other Japanese companies and all were sold under the Victor (JVC) name. I'm guessing that laboratory series is either the TOTL X1, Z1, or the 4-ch carts with shibata tips and response to 50 - 60K. Victor made a number of MCs. These might have come a little later. In the '80s the Japanese started producing MCs like crazy and grabbed a large share of sales for the new demand.
Regards,
neo

BTW, for what it's worth, there were a couple of 4-ch carts that had a .2 mil elliptical. I don't believe Victor had one, but isn't the Grace F9E a .2 elliptical?

griffithds · « **Reply #1245 on:** 5 Dec 2015, 06:04 pm »

Hi Neo,

I have one of those 4MD -20X cartridges. It is identical to a At 14s or ATs14. I don't remember exactly which one but it is the one that has the wider housing and has the odd mounting post position. Great sounding cartridge but the At 14's were! They (the stylus and housing), was supplied to JVC in white but got painted a gold color. The paint didn't stick very well and flaked off rather easily. That is why when you see one listed for sale, they look rather beat-up. Its really just the poor choice of paint that was sellected to paint them gold so that they didn't 'look' like an AT cartridge.
On the VE site there is a promo sheet that show and describes both the X-1 and the Z-1 on the same promo page. Quite similar in all regards as far as specs. I have it saved but not to sure of how to post it to this forum. I could and would have emailed it to you if I remembered your email address

I have seen the Nivico name associated with Nagoaka. Also that MicroRidge tip that Jico supplies for their SAS I beleive is a Nagoaka product. Getting to be a rather small world with this hobby of ours.
Yes, .2 mill is what my F-9e states. I forgot that it also was usable for 4 channel. Maybe that is why is sounds so good on the phono stage I had converted to 100K resistance? More in line what was considered essential for 4 channel designs.
Regards,

griffithds · « **Reply #1246 on:** 5 Dec 2015, 08:35 pm »

Speaking of which, there is a JVC 4MD-20X listed on fleabay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JVC-4MD-20X-AT14S-4-CH-CD-4-Cartridge-amp-Original-Shibata-Stylus-/221958578738?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276

Easy to see that it is a AT cartridge. Those 'V' magnets are a dead giveaway! Also in regards to that gold paint issue I mentioned. Stylus is creased but still a good example to see in regards to what one looks like.
Regards,

neobop · « **Reply #1247 on:** 7 Dec 2015, 01:12 pm »

I was looking for a chart of AT15 specs when I saw this old post by David in 2013. This is around the time when Griff was transplanting AT styli.

Quote from: dlaloum on 12 Jun 2013, 01:56 pm

Hi Neo

what I am saying is
1) low inductance designs tend to expose cantilever resonance (as it is not balanced by LCR loading..)
2) basic aluminium cantilevers have resonances causing a boost at anywhere from 11Hz to 16Hz (examples Ed Saunders V15V stylus - 11Hz, Shure & Jico standard elipticals circa 16Hz), high quality aluminiums will place the resonance at 18Hz to 21Hz (examples Pickering Z7500s, Ortofon OM20/30/40) - exotic cantilevers can place the resonance higher (Jico SAS - circa 28kHz, Dynavector Karat 50Khz to 70kHz depending on model)
3) Audio perception is a beast! - amplitude boosts in the very directional higher frequencies can be perceived as broadened soundstage
4) Brightness is not a reflection of a linear boost across the high end - but a reflection of a boost between around 5kHz and 10kHz - boosts above 10kHz don't tend to be perceived as "brightness"
5) a cantilever with a resonance in the lower highs eg: 11kHz - is very likely to sound "Bright" even if the high end above 16kHz drops off dramatically - counter intuitive I know... - So a basic relatively heavy aluminium cantilever in an MC can be a bad thing (assuming you don't like "brightness")
6) A cantilever with a resonance around 16kHz will boost frequencies from around 8kHz (within the brightness range) up to around 32KHz - resulting in both brightness and strong soundstage perception.... the cues for both are boosted.
7) A cantilever with a resonance around 19kHz (eg Pickering 7500) will boost frequencies starting from around 9.5kHz.... so negligible impact on the brightness zone - but substantial impact in the soundstage cues - this is common for many high quality MC's

The very best MM/MI designs are mid inductance - not as low as true low inductance designs - so it does not expose cantilever resonance quite as harshly, but does not depress the high end as much as high inductance designs do. Fit a traditional 6mm or 7mm high quality cantilever to one of these - adjust with the right loading, and you can achieve theoretically very very good results without resorting to technological or engineering extremes....

eg: CA Maestro, V15VMR, Technics EPC100/205, many others

But these are just my ruminations.... and maybe I ate just one hash brownie too many....

bye for now

David

neo

griffithds · « **Reply #1248 on:** 8 Dec 2015, 03:16 am »

Thanks Neo,

A lot of information their! I had to re-read your post (Davids), 3 times for it all to sink in. The information helps in understanding what is actually happening when I compare several cartridges an hear differences in them.
Regards,

neobop · « **Reply #1249 on:** 8 Dec 2015, 03:44 am »

Griff,
One thing not adequately taken into account in David's post, is exotic cantilevers with low inductance generators. It's true that low inductance motors tend to be harder to load, but cantilever resonances also tend to be above the audio band. For example the TK10ML has 85mH and can peel the paint off your wall, but the cantilever resonates around 30K. Find the right resistance load and it's an amazing cart.

This is one post sort of taken out of context and I must say, I miss David's input.
Regards,
neo

griffithds · « **Reply #1250 on:** 8 Dec 2015, 03:50 pm »

Neo,

I have also read posts that praises the TK-10ML's paint removal abilities, but I never could understand why people felt that way based upon what I was hearing with my 10ML? I have always found it to sound quite excellent. Very similar to my Keiski Gold Spot in most regards which is very similar to the Koetsu's. With the TK-10ML being a M/M and the other two being M/C's, it became the cartridge that convinced me there just might be something to that thread Raul started. I had entertained the notion of selling it based on the un-attainability of replacement stylus's until I found a NOS AT-25 (which I keep as a spare for replacement). It is now in my display case, waiting its turn in rotation!

BTW: I also miss Davids posts. He just seemed to have dropped off the face of the earth? You two gave me many things to think and ponder about.
Regards,

GentleBender · « **Reply #1251 on:** 8 Dec 2015, 09:32 pm »

So I traded my old AT LP120USB for a new Ortofon OMB20 and was looking for a bit of guidance. Being new to this I don't want to waste time and energy doing something I would regret. I have this mounted on an Audioquest PT-6, 7 or 8 and was curious if adding damping would be beneficial. The cartridge has not been dialed in totally yet, but was looking to get some feedback. I will spend time setting it up without damping for now. The info from Vinyl Engine says it has a 30 x 10-6cm/Dyne dynamic compliance and I believe the tonearm to be a low/medium mass arm on a VPI HW-19.

neobop · « **Reply #1252 on:** 9 Dec 2015, 02:29 am »

Griff,
It was in the '80s and I bought the 10ML II new. I wasn't prepared for the break in period and the cart seemed relentless. I guess that's where the perception of overly bright comes from. Once settled in, the cart was amazingly detailed and accurate.

Funny you should mention Kisiki. A Silverspot was my next cart. I found it romantic and not at all appropriate for my music. I already sold the Signet and regretted it. The Kisiki didn't last long. I went through a session of carts, none of which measured up to the Signet. I should have bought another one, but I guess curiosity got the best of me. I had an Adcom HOMC with a microridge, which I liked, but it wasn't until '88 when I got a Genesis 500, then 1000 my favorite.

David's situation now - he is unable to set up his record player due to family considerations. Under the circumstances his absence is understandable. I wish him well. Maybe he'll join us before too long.
Regards,

neobop · « **Reply #1253 on:** 9 Dec 2015, 02:38 am »

GB,
OMB-20 ? I don't know how this differs from an OM-20. It has a nude elliptical stylus?

AFAIK you should be okay with your arm. How does it sound? cu = 30, what other info do you have?
neo

GentleBender · « **Reply #1254 on:** 9 Dec 2015, 10:11 am »

It is the same as the OM-20 sold in bulk directly to manufactures. Here is what I found so far. So far it already sounds much better than the Shure M97xe. After tearing everything apart several times I took a close look at the styli and it seems to be off center and pushed to the left (from the front).

Ortofon OM 20

Type moving magnet
Output Voltage 4mV
Frequency Response 20Hz - 22kHz
Tracking Force 1.0 - 1.5g
Mass 5g
Channel Separation 25dB
Channel Balance 1.5dB
Load Impedance 47k ohms
Output Impedance 750 ohms
Stylus Stylus 20
Stylus Tip nude elliptical
Cantilever ?
Dynamic Compliance 30 x 10-6cm/Dyne
Static Compliance ?

Notes
5gm cartridge mass includes a removable brass weight of 2.5gm. Lateral Dynamic compliance is at 10Hz. Inductance 450 mH, Recommended Capacitance Load: 200-500pF

neobop · « **Reply #1255 on:** 9 Dec 2015, 10:45 am »

Which stylus goes off to the left, the OM20 ? Try tracking at 1.5g and reducing anti-skate to near zero and see if it straightens out. I assume you mean the front, the stylus is off to the left. Was it like that when you got it?

LpGear still sells the cart:
http://www.lpgear.com/product/OROM20S.html

All the OM Super bodies are the same and you can upgrade the stylus. I believe Ortofon stopped making OM styli, but you can still find them. They're a little pricey compared to AT, but high quality. Let us know how it's working out.
neo

GentleBender · « **Reply #1256 on:** 9 Dec 2015, 01:22 pm »

It is the Shure cartridge that is a bit off skew and yes bent to the left or almost twisted when viewing from the front. I apologize for being unclear. I've had that cartridge since 2012 so it is probably time to replace the stylus, but I want to save up for the Jico SAS which is about $70 more than the OEM.

I would like to know which cart to look out for as a future upgrade that would be well matched to the table/arm. I have a hard time justifying cartridges over $500, but if some come highly recommended I will look into them. My budget prevents me from buying a bunch of different cartridges to experiment plus I hate wasting money. I wish there was a cartridge loaning library site that is similar to "The Cable company" http://www.thecableco.com/content.aspx?iid=5777. It could be dangerous to an audiophile, but then I could make an educated decision.

I've finally learned to do just one round of adjustments at a time to prevent frustration when setting up the turntable. It becomes entirely too stressful when I try to continually adjust everything at which point nothing sounds good.

griffithds · « **Reply #1257 on:** 9 Dec 2015, 05:45 pm »

Neo,
It does seem we have had several of the same cartridges over the years. As well as tone arms and turntables. I had a Sigma Genesis 2000 MKII which I sold back when I had the Alphason HR 100S mounted on a SOTA Sapphire table. At that time for some strange reason, I felt that owning only one or at most two cartridges was the norm. I regretted selling that one. About a year ago, Nikola (Nandric), mentioned of a dealer in Italy who was selling her late husbands cartridge collection. I bought several, one of which was a NOS Sigma Genesis 2000 MKII. I am quite happy to have it back in my rotation. Definitely front row contender!
Yes, Kieski's are on the sweet side. Just like Koetsu's, my Miyabi, and many other highly regarded cartridges. My choices would be neutral first, then sweet over ruthlessly revealing.

Regards,

neobop · « **Reply #1258 on:** 9 Dec 2015, 10:31 pm »

GB,
What cart to look out for? At this point I don't know what to tell you. Let us know how things are working out with the OM20 and Shure/SAS. These things are often revealed as you progress and form opinions about what you like and dislike.
neo

neobop · « **Reply #1259 on:** 9 Dec 2015, 10:45 pm »

Griff,
Yea, but I had the Genesis 1000 on a Studietto/Zeta. In the mid '90s I traded that table for the Sota/Alphason and a pile of money. Bad move I've always regretted, but I needed the cash.

Your description of the carts seems to fit. The 1000 and 2000 are the same cart except the 2000 has gold coils - is silkier, smoother. The 1000 is faster but also more ruthless - unforgiving. I like that. Tells you exactly how it is. Not for every record though.
neo