[sunnydaze]

Sorry man.  You're right.  But the guy lies and attacks me like that, I'm gonna say my piece and set the record straight.

I've said what I needed to.  Cease and desist time.  Unless he lies and attacks again!

 

[woodsyi]

Chill dudes.

Take an hour break before writing something off your emotion.  You guys have been good ACers for a long time.  I am sure it's miscommunication somewhere.

Peace.

[GentleBender]

GB,
Maybe this can help you get there sooner.  User reports say this is every bit as good as a 16.5. 
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649240538-canadian-made-rcm-3d-printed-parts-you-supply-the-shopvac/

The wand will accommodate 2 sizes of vac hose and has a pressure release valve to adjust suction.
neo

YOU!!! You just had to push me over the edge.    Well after watching a video or two I have ordered one too. It was tough to choose between this and the Record Doctor, but I like the fact that I can easily replace the vacuum if it dies. Now I am ordering supplies to make the DIY cleaning solution on AK. I will watch my step on the "Audio slide" around you. 

[neobop]

   

YOU!!! You just had to push me over the edge.    Well after watching a video or two I have ordered one too. It was tough to choose between this and the Record Doctor, but I like the fact that I can easily replace the vacuum if it dies. Now I am ordering supplies to make the DIY cleaning solution on AK. I will watch my step on the "Audio slide" around you. 

Guilty as charged.  Let us know how it works out.
neo

[neobop]

The fallacy of quoting out of context:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/quotcont.html

"To quote out of context is to remove a passage from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its meaning. The context in which a passage occurs always contributes to its meaning, and the shorter the passage the larger the contribution. For this reason, the quoter must always be careful to quote enough of the context not to misrepresent the meaning of the quote. Of course, in some sense, all quotation is out of context, but by a "contextomy", I refer only to those quotes whose meaning is changed by a loss of context. The fallacy of quoting out of context is committed when a contextomy is offered as evidence in an argument."

I see this being done frequently on these forums, not just here, all of them.  Contextomy, or quote mining, is common practice. 
neo

[neobop]

Jico SAS discontinued:

http://www.jico-stylus.com/announcement_sas.php

"We endeavor to refine the original design and bring you the next generation of Super Analogue Stylus as soon as possible. Your continued patronage is much appreciated as we undergo this product transition."

neo

[smctigue]

In case you didn't recognize her with the er, hair that way, the new avatar is Scarlett Johansson.   I'd rather listen to those old jazz guys, and look at something pleasing in a different way.

According to VE the nulls for the 507 II are 60.1 and 116.6mm.   That puts the inner null next to Stevenson at the lead out, and the outer null is Loefgren.  This should optimize the middle and end of the record.

Hey Smctigue,
Get a chance to check out more carts?  We'd be interested in your thoughts.
neo

Hi neobop, yes, I have tried the M20FL, Z1S-SAS and P77-SAS. Unfortunately the SAS on the P77 is shot. The seller told me "no more than 50 hours on it" but I have my doubts.

The M20FL was in the system for 3 weeks. I was loading it at about 100pF (best estimate of phono pre + cables) @ 47k. This cartridge has a natural, organic ease about it that I really like. I love the overall tone and the highs are really sweet and extended. I would like a bit more midrange presence, I'll play with loading to see if I can improve that.

The Z1-SAS is a completely different animal. I started out at the same loading and felt the lower midrange upper bass was thick but the speed and dynamics are were just amazing. My Joule Electra OPS1 has an arrangement on the MC input that allows me to make up loading plugs. It's a nice arrangement that I believe I'll modify to bring over to the MM input. That way I can play with both capacitance and resistance if necessary. In the meantime I soldered a 150pF cap across the inputs of the MM side to get an idea of the effect. I found it to be quite positive as it has removed the upper bass/lower mid bump that was creeping into the mids. This is fun cartridge! I listened to the AP 45 of Art Pepper Meets the Rhythm Section the other night. I just sat there and laughed at the speed and impact of every snare strike, just incredible. Cymbals very extended and sweet, great air. Nice sweet midrange tone. DEEP bass but tuneful and tight. I haven't decided yet if the cartridge is overdoing the dynamics or if is just conveying what's in the groove. Maybe I'll decide I don't care as it's so damn fun and alive, we'll see.

I would like to put the M20FL back in with the new loading to hear the effect. I really do have a sweet spot for that cart. Next I need to find a nice arm (after my daughter graduates college!).

[neobop]

Hi Smctigue,
In the old days I used to go through carts like they were expendable items.  Of all the carts I got rid of, beside the Signet TK10ML II, the one I regret selling is the M20FL Super.  I agree with your assessment about the sound.  The high end is sweet and natural, but getting the rest to fit in is tricky.  I forget the inductance, but it's high.

With MMs I start out at 47K and adjust from there.  The original version of the cart came with caps attached to the back of the cart.  These were either 300 or 400pF depending on model.  Considering "standard" preamp capacitance in the old days was 225pF, the total is mind boggling.  Because our version of the cart came w/o caps I figured not as much was needed and used as little as possible to tune it.  At 47K the mids seemed like they were coming from across the street.  I took it up to about 53K and 350/375pF total.  I don't think you can get away with much less capacitance, but not sure at 100K.  Apparently the cart has severe treble droop that extends down to the midrange.  I usually like faster carts like the JVC, but the musicality, the relaxed and natural sound of the Ortofon is seductive.

I don't know the best course of action for the P77.  Jico is supposed to come out with a new SAS.      Maybe Halcro can make a suggestion.
neo

[smctigue]

Thanks for that neo, I'll try that loading and report back. As for the P77, no big deal, it's a "nice to have" at this point. I have the bases pretty well covered with the JVC and the Orto. It's funny, I usually gravitate towards the dynamic carts as well but I definitely miss the Orto when it's not in the system.

[smctigue]

My advise is.......

Don't do this!  I've owned my Rock 3 for almost 20 yrs.  I've tried quite a few arms and carts on it.  The front end dampending, along with the built-in seismic sink, are the main elements that make it sound sooooo good.  The silicone trough will elevate the performance of a pedestrian arm such that it performs beyond its price point.

On the Rock I have used what I guess are considered medium mass arms:  Rega 300B, SME V,  Linn Ittok,  Linn Basic, Kuzma Stogi,  Kuzma Stogi Reference, Clearaudio Satisfy.  Combined with mostly MM carts in the medium compliance range:  CA Virtuoso Wood,  CA Maestro,  Cartridge Man Music Maker mk3,  SAE 1000e.  Also used some MC:  Dyna 17d2 mk2 and Dyna 20x (both LO and HO).   Every combination I tried has worked just fine.

I bought my Rock in '95. It's been my one and only table since. I've never run it without the outrigger in place. Not using never really crossed my mind until I starting playing with these vintage MM's. I have been thinking about a much lighter solution to the Townshend outrigger that should accomplish the same thing without adding 5 grams to the arm.

[sunnydaze]

I bought my Rock in '95. It's been my one and only table since. I've never run it without the outrigger in place. Not using never really crossed my mind until I starting playing with these vintage MM's. I have been thinking about a much lighter solution to the Townshend outrigger that should accomplish the same thing without adding 5 grams to the arm.

Being so experienced with the Rock I'm sure you already know this, but it's quite easy to determine what the front end dampening actually brings to the table.  No changes required.  In your current setup, simply play an LP with and without the trough, by just pivoting it away. Very quick and easy A/B.

I know this doesn't exactly address what you are trying to do -- that is, combine a highish compliance cart with a lighter more suitable arm than your current Rega -- but I'm a little confused about your earlier question.  Why do you think you need to "ditch the dampening trough"  to combine a high compliance cart with a light arm?  My understanding is the trough can be used with any non-unipivot arm /  cartridge combo, so long as the combo is simpatico from a RF perspective.  Am I missing something?     

[smctigue]

My original question only applies to my current arm. Do the damping benefits of adding the 5 gram outrigger to the arm outweigh the pitfalls of running a 25cu cart on a 17 gram arm? My tests have shown me that 17 grams is just too much for the carts that I am testing, they sound sluggish. The arm without the outrigger sounds much better but I think its more a question of mass then the effectiveness of the damping. Now, if I put the outrigger on a 7 gram arm I'll be in good shape.

[sunnydaze]

My original question only applies to my current arm. Do the damping benefits of adding the 5 gram outrigger to the arm outweigh the pitfalls of running a 25cu cart on a 17 gram arm? My tests have shown me that 17 grams is just too much for the carts that I am testing, they sound sluggish. The arm without the outrigger sounds much better but I think its more a question of mass then the effectiveness of the damping. Now, if I put the outrigger on a 7 gram arm I'll be in good shape.

OK, so your own ears have answered that question.  I don't believe it's the dampening that's hurting things.  As you've correctly surmised,  I think the cart is just a bad match with the Rega arm made heavier w/ outrigger hardware.  Removing the outrigger lightens the arm, and makes for a better match.

So the vintage cart on Rega is better without the trough, but is it better than your other carts with the trough?

I've seen your list (Benz, Dyna, Shelter).  Some really nice ones there that should sound great on Rega + trough (unless there is some cart / arm synergy or matching issue I'm unware of).

But if IIRC, aren't they are all MC?   Maybe you like the vintage MM so much not because it's vintage, but because it's MM?  Just a thought.  Many folks prefer MM.  Have you tried a more recent MM?  Most of the carts I own (see earlier post) are current MM, and on Rega they should all be just fine w/r/t RF.   So you'd be able to use dampening trough.  I prefer them all (including both Dyna 20x versions) to the Dyna 17d2 MC, which sounds a bit wirey and lean to me.

[smctigue]

OK, so your own ears have answered that question.  I don't believe it's the dampening that's hurting things.  As you've correctly surmised,  I think the cart is just a bad match with the Rega arm made heavier w/ outrigger hardware.  Removing the outrigger lightens the arm, and makes for a better match.

So the vintage cart on Rega is better without the trough, but is it better than your other carts with the trough?

I've seen your list (Benz, Dyna, Shelter).  Some really nice ones there that should sound great on Rega + trough (unless there is some cart / arm synergy or matching issue I'm unware of).

But if IIRC, aren't they are all MC?   Maybe you like the vintage MM so much not because it's vintage, but because it's MM?  Just a thought.  Many folks prefer MM.  Have you tried a more recent MM?  Most of the carts I own (see earlier post) are current MM, and on Rega they should all be just fine w/r/t RF.   So you'd be able to use dampening trough.  I prefer them all (including both Dyna 20x versions) to the Dyna 17d2 MC, which sounds a bit wirey and lean to me.

I prefer my MM's without the trough to my MC's using the trough, absolutely. I am going to engineer an outrigger that will be under a gram and try it with the MM's that I have. I expect good things. I haven't tried any of the modern MM's yet, not sure I will anytime soon. I am very happy with what I have right now.

I like your description of the 17d2, that is exactly how I would descibe the d3 although it does seem to be a widely acclaimed cartridge.

[sunnydaze]

I prefer my MM's without the trough to my MC's using the trough, absolutely. I am going to engineer an outrigger that will be under a gram and try it with the MM's that I have. I expect good things. I haven't tried any of the modern MM's yet, not sure I will anytime soon. I am very happy with what I have right now.

I like your description of the 17d2, that is exactly how I would descibe the d3 although it does seem to be a widely acclaimed cartridge.

Being just a more recent version of same cart, I suspect the d3 sounds very similar to d2.   I know it's widely respected, and it's speed,  detail retrieval and light airy character shows me why it's admired, but just not exactly to my taste.  Based on the raves it gets, I figured I musta just set it up wrong.  So I kept installing, and uninstalling.  Several times, just to be sure.    And each time I heard the same thing.  Really nice detail (esp in HF), light breezy and quick, but just not enough meat on the bones for my taste.  So outta line with my preferences that it never lasted on my arm more than a day!  But I understand why others who have taste in that direction, or maybe a rig balanced towards dark and heavy, would like it.

What are you using now that you like so much?

[neobop]

I prefer my MM's without the trough to my MC's using the trough, absolutely. I am going to engineer an outrigger that will be under a gram and try it with the MM's that I have. I expect good things. I haven't tried any of the modern MM's yet, not sure I will anytime soon. I am very happy with what I have right now.

An outrigger under the arm will lower the center of gravity, but won't do anything about the extra mass unless you can shift the weight to the rear or  reduce total weight of the paddle device.  If you're going to replace the arm soon, it might be a waste of time.  If you do make the outrigger it will be interesting reading results.
neo

[neobop]

I look at the top of the page (67) and I see this.  You've said your peace and I'll say mine.   

Sorry man.  You're right.  But the guy lies and attacks me like that, I'm gonna say my piece and set the record straight.

I've said what I needed to.  Cease and desist time.  Unless he lies and attacks again!

 

Sunnydaze comments in red:
Reply #1318 on: 16 Feb 2016, 02:59 pm »

Quote from: neobop on 16 Feb 2016, 10:43 am
This thread has been running for years.  Maybe I'm mistaken, but I don't recall your posting here before yesterday. 

Yep.  Is that a problem?  Should I have requested your permission before posting?

This snide remark is based on a quote taken out of context.  In no way did I ever imply you needed permission to post here.  In fact, in a previous post I said, "Any member is free to come on this thread and say what they want.  That includes me."

Quote from: neobop on 16 Feb 2016, 10:43 am
What was your first post yesterday, something about a whiney lil skirt?  Yet you say "Unprovoked".

Post #1296:   You mentioned me, out of the blue, for no reason whatsoever.  Said I did things I didn't do.  Just to get in a dig for some perceived/imagined slights.......that  BTW,  happened months ago, on a different thread!  Retribution.  Attack.  Because that's what you do.  Gotta get in the last word.  Can't just drop it, like I did.   So yes, unprovoked.

Post #1304:  Joking with you.....I implied you were coming off like a "whiney lil skirt".  Because you were!  (PS and FYI:  all the laughing emoticons denote joke status).  I was just "Taking the piss" as the British lads like to say.  (Google it if you need enlightenment).  You'd never survive there with your thin skin and MIA sense of humor.  I bet you're a blast at cocktail parties.

Then you did your usual -- got all nasty, sarcastic and snide with your insults about my low IQ, stupidity, etc.

First of all, it wasn't out of the blue.  I was mentioning the things I think are going wrong in this circle and for me, you're one of those things.  There was no escalation of hostilities, just the situation as I see it.  It wasn't months ago.  Previous to earlier today, the last post there was on the first of this month.

You think laughing emoticons makes a snide remark less nasty?  It makes it worse.  How could you possibly think, being the butt of a joke lessens the impact?   Things like that make me question your intelligence. 

Quote from: neobop on 16 Feb 2016, 10:43 am
The other descriptions like Moron Man happened after that, but in all honesty seem more like statements of fact.  Truth is, I don't think you're too bright.

I've clearly shown where you were mistaken.  And I was gracious enough to chalk it up to a misunderstanding.  Hey pal, you made the mistake not me!  Yet you double down and call me stupid again?!   You're a real class act.

You said, "You misunderstood me.  To be fair,  I see the confusion, but it's not what I meant."   IMO an honest mistake requires no apology, but I apologized for the mistake anyway.  You might have thought my "stupid" remarks were based on that mistake.  They were not.  I've questioned your intelligence ever since the other thread.  I didn't say it at that time. 

Quote from: neobop on 16 Feb 2016, 10:43 am
Nothing to be ashamed of, but you have a nasty streak.  You like to hit people when they're down, make fun of them, and make your point at someone else's expense.   I try not to do that (digital alien threads excepted), and I held back on Evan's thread.

Show me where I did this.

Your exact words in Post #1296:
Definition of a volunteer - 1) a politically correct Nazi with a little authority  2) One who volunteers because that's what they're worth  3) A jerk with a blister on his hand who tries to rub up against you.

My friend, you have some cajones grandes  to say I'm the one with a nasty streak, makes fun of people, and makes my point at someone else's expense!!       Gimme some of your drugs, I too would like to escape from reality!          

And there are several examples of you getting just as nasty and insulting on Evan's thread.

Those remarks about volunteers were satirical, done in the style of a David Letterman top ten list.  Anyone who thinks they were serious, is stupid, even if they never heard of David Letterman.   Apparently you think your attack "jokes" are exempt from name calling.  They are not. 

Quote from: neobop on 16 Feb 2016, 10:43 am
If I misinterpreted your post I apologize, but I think the comments are apt. 

Nice apology, pal.  If??!!  You definitely did, and I clearly explained it to you.  Inability to proffer sincere apology when proven wrong = more classlessness and shows weak character.   Continuing to call me stupid, when you and noone else acted stupidly, is just idiotic.


Already answered.  Maybe that apology wasn't good enough for you.  I think it was unnecessary.  Either you didn't realize the risk of quoting out of context with that style of quote, or you are deliberately deceptive, or both. 

At the risk of your response, I'm doing this to clear the air.  It's how I honestly see it, with no further escalation intended.   On further reflection, maybe the policy of no personal attacks, makes sense.  As I said before, I don't want to spend time doing this, but without a "cleansing", the situation is unacceptable to me.
neo

[davron94]

Hey all, I'm new here to the site but have been an avid vinyl aficionado for many years, and have owned and used several different types of TTs over the years. What caught my eye was all the talk of the JVC Z1 carts. I Just acquired a JVC JL-F50 TT, for my garage setup, with one of the Z1-S carts on it and what looks to be a brown stylus. I have never seen or heard of one of these carts before. I would like to salvage the cart and just replace the stylus. I was reading through the sixty-some-odd pages of this thread and I see a lot of talk about the Jico and SAS styli that seem to be the best replacement for the cart. I've looked on Jico's site as well as a few others and cannot find the SAS anywhere. Unless of course I am searching under the wrong name. Can anyone steer me in the right direction on where to find a decently priced replacement stylus? I see that several people like the sound of this cart, and I would like to give it a try.

Thanks for any help, and damn glad to be here!

[sunnydaze]

I look at the top of the page (67) and I see this.  You've said your peace and I'll say mine. .......

(blah, blah, blah.......and more nonsense)

Hmmmmmm,  I think I made a wrong turn and entered the state mental hospital.   

Either that or DOUCHEville.

 

[woodsyi]

I getting the last word in. 
No more confrontation between the two of you. 
We can see the big picture. 
You two don't have to try to convince anything.
Petulance at your ages!  C'mon.
Any more and I am sending this thread to quarantine.