[neobop]

Could someone give me a "heads up"on one of these bodies?
Don grb

Hi Don grb,
It's every man for himself.  I saw a Z1S on fleabey a couple of weeks ago (like $45), but it was withdrawn from the auction before it ended.  Try here:

http://www.jauce.com/

http://www.easyauctionjapan.com/

Love those Japanese LPs.
neo

[griffithds]

When you go to these various sites looking the the X-1 or Z-1, look under  both JVC and Victor.  I know the Japanese sites like to use Victor instead of JVC.
Regards,

[griffithds]

Their are 3 of the Victor Z-1S cartridges with a head shell available on the Jauce site.  Most cartridges on the Japanese auction sites will come with a head shell.
Regards, 

[Grbluen]

Thanks everybody!

[Halcro]

A few weeks ago i won an auction on the Japanese Buyee/Yahoo site for a JVC/Victor Z1 with original beryllium cantilever.
The sound of this cartridge was immediately impressive with a glorious deep bottom end and realistic seductive midrange ...
My joy was short-lived as mistracking became evident (especially on the inner grooves) 
A collapsed suspension was revealed as the culprit and no amount of VTA and VTF adjustment could ameliorate the problem. I suspect that the absence of a stylus guard may carry most of the blame for this condition as Banquo also has a sample with the same problem...
I have a SAS stylus on the way as a replacement...but will have to wait for my return in February to test it....
Luckily I have had enough hours with the original stylus to be confident of assessing a comparison...

[griffithds]

Halcro,

I do not want to say to much until David has has some time to enjoy his X-1, but I will say that the purchase of the SAS for your Z-1 is money very well spent!  Congratulation BTW in your purchase.
Regards,

[neobop]

A few weeks ago i won an auction on the Japanese Buyee/Yahoo site for a JVC/Victor Z1 with original beryllium cantilever.
The sound of this cartridge was immediately impressive with a glorious deep bottom end and realistic seductive midrange ...
My joy was short-lived as mistracking became evident (especially on the inner grooves) 
A collapsed suspension was revealed as the culprit and no amount of VTA and VTF adjustment could ameliorate the problem. I suspect that the absence of a stylus guard may carry most of the blame for this condition as Banquo also has a sample with the same problem...
I have a SAS stylus on the way as a replacement...but will have to wait for my return in February to test it....
Luckily I have had enough hours with the original stylus to be confident of assessing a comparison...

Now we're getting somewhere.   Thanks for the post Halcro, but why the razz face at the end?  I think my skepticism is misunderstood.  I'm looking to establish creditability.

You can't have a new contender with only two guys, neither of which is Mikey Fremer,  saying it's so.  These carts somehow fell under the radar since the '70s.  Why?
Nandric said he thought the X1 was the best MM long before this, and there was little or no response until Griff chimed in.   I think this is a great thing.  It's lucky that the Z1 is so close in performance.  Get a body, buy a stylus and you've got a great cart.  What's not to like?

Seems the suspensions are like some ADC.  What's the deal with stylus fitment?  The X1 and Z1 take different styli.  There's an X1 MKII  - the same stylus as MKI ? 
I saw the Z1 has an S, E, Eb (beryllium?) versions.  I assume they all take the same stylus? 
neo

[griffithds]

Hi Neo:

We are going to have to be a little careful here with these JVC ID's.  I have just seen a Z-5S on sale in Germany with a Z-1S stylus installed.  Does this mean that all the "Z" varieties are interchangeable?  I would think so but this is only my guess.  I also know there are Z-3's and Z-4's. I have not seen a Z-2 so I can not confirm if it exists or not.   Some of those Z-3 and Z-4.s also sport the Z-1S stylus.  I don't know what if anything is different with any of them 'generator' wise.   I do have pretty good knowledge pertaining to the X-1 (to be called MKI), the X-1 MKII, and the following model, the Z's.  The X-1 has the same cantilever and stylus as both the MKI, MKII, and the Z-1.   That is Beryllium cantilever with a Shibata tip.  The 'E' is an aluminum cantilever with a elliptical tip.  The 'EB' is said to be an elliptical tip on the beryllium cantilever. I have not seen this one myself so I state from what I have read.  The 'S' is conical (spherical) on an alloy cantilever and is the only one without a tension wire in its design.  This 'S' version was the free cartridge on many of the tables sold during the life time of the 'Quad era'.  Must have been awfully popular because I have just seen a case (100 lot), of JVC Z-1S stylus original replacements for sale for $500.  And individual 'S' stylus's for sale all over the internet.  I have to admit, I am a bit surprised at just how close this 'S' tip sounds to the 'Beryllium/Shibata version.  I am convinced that there is something about this JVC generator system that is controlling it signature sound.  I even have a Tonar replacement elliptical stylus for this X-1 which sounds very little different than any of the others.  Yes, I am sure  you are thinking how can this be.  Well, I am thinking the same thing but I have each of these styli/cantilever combinations and I am at a loss to explain it.  The only stylus that makes a noticeable difference is the Jico SAS.  And it's difference in not in its sound or tone, but in sound stage.  It makes the stage wider and deeper.  Other than that, it also sounds like all the other combinations that I have mentioned. 
I have a X-1 MKI body but have never seen a X-1 MKI stylus assembly.  Both of my X-1 bodies have the X-1 MKII (original) stylus's.  The X-1 Nivico replacement sounds the same as the originals but is neither a beryllium cantilever nor a nude square shank Shibata.  It is an aluminum alloy cantilever with a bonded shibata. 
I would have no problem with someone buying a Z-1S and stating that they see nothing in its presentation that would warrant changing the 'S' stylus for something else.  There is a 'House' sound with this cartridge that stands out no matter what cantilever or stylus you use with it. 
Don't go thinking that by me saying 'House sound' that I am referring to 'colored' or 'warm and or fuzzy'. This cartridge is clean and neutral. I might also use the word 'Bold'.  It does grab you and commands you to listen.  I own a lot of cartridges, both M/M, M/I, and M/C.  Very few of the have this ability to make you just stop what ever it is that you are doing and just listen!
I have spent the last few years, amassing a collection of "by gone era" cartridges that made the cartridge of the week  on Raul's Moving Magnet thread, and I must say, this one is by far the 'best of the bunch'.   
Regards,

[dlaloum]

As far as I can tell the Z1, Z3, Z4 all use the same plastic holder (in differing colours) and are interchangeable - I had a look at the turntableneedes compatibility section on the Z1 - which is usually a reliable indicator.

The stylus code is 7986...

Also according to TTN - two cartridge bodies fit them MD1025 and MD1027 - According to VE MD1025 is the Z1S... so which is the MD1027 and how does it differ?

[Halcro]

No SAS for the X1 here.... (hesitant to get a 4th SAS when my other 3 are barely run in!)

And the TK7LCa, well it is basically an AT20ss isn't it - and I have to say the AT20ss is pretty spectacular...

Well I can certainly agree that the TK7LCa is pretty spectacular.....but as for being like the AT20ss.....I see Marilyn Monroe and Mia Farrow...
And yes I know that the photo shows an after-market stylus in my AT20ss....but it was replaced with a genuine $300 20ss stylus and still sounded like fingernails down a chalkboard....
There were two happy days in my cartridge adventures.....when I sold the AT20ss and when I sold the Technics EPC100Mk3...

[dlaloum]

What was your reaction to both of those? (the reason you were happy to see them go?...)

[Halcro]

The AT20ss....with both after-market and original new stylus.....had a thin and flat midrange with a MIA bottom end....
The treble presentation appeared designed to loosen tooth fillings with a brittleness and aggression guaranteed to have my better-half storming down the hallway brandishing meat cleavers....

The Technics EPC100Mk3 was the polar opposite with a bland, sterile and recessed presentation guaranteed to even bore a career Quantity Surveyor....
But hey....that's only in my system....
YMMV...

[neobop]

Well I can certainly agree that the TK7LCa is pretty spectacular.....but as for being like the AT20ss.....I see Marilyn Monroe and Mia Farrow...

 

Anyone remember the Big Bopper?  Skinny Minnie, she's not skinny.  She's just tall, that's all. 
YMMV was never more appropriate.  The 20SS is an all time favorite of mine.  In my systems I get the feeling it sounds like the record and little else.  IMO that's the most you could or should ask for, but.....  I wonder if the problem was taste, synergy, or not broken in.  All the above? 

Which leads me to speculate about the JVC, keeping in mind that I have yet to hear one.

"I have to admit, I am a bit surprised at just how close this 'S' tip sounds to the 'Beryllium/Shibata version.  I am convinced that there is something about this JVC generator system that is controlling it signature sound.  I even have a Tonar replacement elliptical stylus for this X-1 which sounds very little different than any of the others.  Yes, I am sure  you are thinking how can this be.  Well, I am thinking the same thing but I have each of these styli/cantilever combinations and I am at a loss to explain it.  The only stylus that makes a noticeable difference is the Jico SAS.  And it's difference in not in its sound or tone, but in sound stage.  It makes the stage wider and deeper.  Other than that, it also sounds like all the other combinations that I have mentioned. 
I have a X-1 MKI body but have never seen a X-1 MKI stylus assembly.  Both of my X-1 bodies have the X-1 MKII (original) stylus's.  The X-1 Nivico replacement sounds the same as the originals but is neither a beryllium cantilever nor a nude square shank Shibata.  It is an aluminum alloy cantilever with a bonded shibata. 
I would have no problem with someone buying a Z-1S and stating that they see nothing in its presentation that would warrant changing the 'S' stylus for something else.  There is a 'House' sound with this cartridge that stands out no matter what cantilever or stylus you use with it. 
Don't go thinking that by me saying 'House sound' that I am referring to 'colored' or 'warm and or fuzzy'. This cartridge is clean and neutral. I might also use the word 'Bold'.  It does grab you and commands you to listen.  I own a lot of cartridges, both M/M, M/I, and M/C.  Very few of the have this ability to make you just stop what ever it is that you are doing and just listen!
I have spent the last few years, amassing a collection of "by gone era" cartridges that made the cartridge of the week  on Raul's Moving Magnet thread, and I must say, this one is by far the 'best of the bunch'."

That seems truly bizarre, but it's not.  The fact of the matter is, a spherical stylus is incapable of extracting HF detail like a more advanced tip.  What's the size of a Z1 spherical, .65 or .7mil ? 
If you hear a tune on the radio played by a DL103, does it sound like there's something missing?  No, it sounds like the radio even though if you play the same cut on your rig, you get more detail.  I suspect the forte of the JVC carts is the presentation.  As for the rest, we'll have to wait for other opinions.  Obviously we all get different results and some people are more into presentation while others are more into information.  I don't see how a more advanced cantilever/tip would only improve soundstage.  It must be both.  Intriguing!
neo     

[griffithds]

Neo,

I think whether one perceives a difference between a conical or a more advanced tip when tracking a groove in a record would depend on the groove itself.  There is no doubt that a more advanced tip is 'capable' of capturing more information that a more benign conical (if that conical is of the larger variety in diameter).  Some conicals are actually half or less than the diameter you have referred to.  But not all, and I would venture to say that most of the records that we purchase do not contain this 'capable' range of frequencies or information for this retrieval!  Then of course we could also discuss hearing abilities.  I am in my 60's.  I seriously doubt that I can hear  above 18K!  (grin) 
I would imagine there are those that spend the day listening to test records.  Or even canons?   Those people would prefer to spend their time with a Jico SAS or like tip profiles.  But others, those that like to spend their time listening to records, the everyday 'normal' kind, could and do find the Denon's quite enjoyable.
I am not saying the Denon's are the best or even 2nd best.  I just stating measured response on a graph using a test tone isn't what everyone is looking to discover nor do they find it as meaningful as other find it! 
I have records that did prove the Jico SAS as being the most revealing in tone, timbres and sonics, including soundstage. But of the 4,000+ records that I own, this small handful of records could be counted with just 1 hand! (grin)
And I do have BTW, a RCM so dirty records is not my 'problem'.  (grin)  Now worn records, well we all have a few of those!
Regards,

[neobop]

Griff,

I think whether one perceives a difference between a conical or a more advanced tip when tracking a groove in a record would depend on the groove itself.  There is no doubt that a more advanced tip is 'capable' of capturing more information that a more benign conical (if that conical is of the larger variety in diameter).  Some conicals are actually half or less than the diameter you have referred to.  But not all, and I would venture to say that most of the records that we purchase do not contain this 'capable' range of frequencies or information for this retrieval!  Then of course we could also discuss hearing abilities.  I am in my 60's.  I seriously doubt that I can hear  above 18K!  (grin) 

Well, no.  Spherical tips don't get smaller than .5mil and the vast majority are .65 - .7mil.   .7mil = 17.78um.   .65 = 16.51um. 
The Ortofon SPU Classic GM is 18um (about .7mil).  Some of the 103 variants are around .65mil.  If a spherical is too small the contact area also is too small and the tip will sit on the bottom of the groove and lose contact.

The ability of the moving system to resonate at a high frequency is not the same as being able to trace HF detail.  A 103 has response to 40K or so. 
I happen to like the 103, it has a natural, musical sound.  I like it better with a more advanced tip, cause that's what I like.  I'm also in my '60's and I'm quite sure I can't hear 18K, but I can hear cymbals and HF music.  I think it's well established that response above the audible band effects the sound in the audible band. 

I would imagine there are those that spend the day listening to test records.  Or even canons?   Those people would prefer to spend their time with a Jico SAS or like tip profiles.  But others, those that like to spend their time listening to records, the everyday 'normal' kind, could and do find the Denon's quite enjoyable.
I am not saying the Denon's are the best or even 2nd best.  I just stating measured response on a graph using a test tone isn't what everyone is looking to discover nor do they find it as meaningful as other find it! 
I have records that did prove the Jico SAS as being the most revealing in tone, timbres and sonics, including soundstage. But of the 4,000+ records that I own, this small handful of records could be counted with just 1 hand! (grin)
And I do have BTW, a RCM so dirty records is not my 'problem'.  (grin)  Now worn records, well we all have a few of those!
Regards,

You imagine there are those who spend their day listening to test records, and others listening to "normal" records? 
What is this, a condescending dig at David?  I for one appreciate all the hours of work and analysis spent figuring this stuff out while we play pin the tail on the donkey.   This is unpaid, a labor of love and I'm quite sure the goal is to enjoy the music more. 
BTW, I also have a test record (1), but it's still sealed.  I adjust things by ear and it seems to work out.  Maybe some day I'll check it out.

I don't doubt your results Griff, but you've got to remember people hear differently.  We listen for different clues and sometimes get different results. 
Regards,
neo 

[dlaloum]

I have to admit that most of my listening is digital - vinyl is risk prone around a toddler.... especially one fascinated with anything mechanical or technological!

And the first thing I will do (when I get some "toddler free" time) is run the X1 up on some test records....

That will help me adjust it properly (loading as well as VTF, VTA, alignment) - it will also tell me its objective abilities.

This helps to quickly separate those that are subjectively pleasing (and the reports will differ from hearer to hearer) from those that are objectively excellent performers.

Only after that do I start to put on some "listening" records....

And I usually listen to music through this process....

I try to be technically rigorous as the ear and mind are often all too easily tricked, but I ultimately have my own subjective favourites too... (and I am still trying to understand what it is about those cartridges/styli...)

[griffithds]

Hello Neo,

Their was no dig implied towards anyone.  The point I was trying to make was that to some of us, it doesn't matter if through the use of test records or test methods, that cartridge 'A' measured/performed better than cartridge 'B' if during real world listening to 'normal' everyday records, it is actually cartridge 'B' that is the preferred cartridge to listen to. Many of us and I would suspect you included, have sold highly regarded/tested cartridges that just didn't cut it when installed in our systems, whether it be due to our hearing differences, tone arm compatibility, excess capacitance present in our cables, or just the wrong alignment of the stars! 
The tests that you and David perform are very much appreciated by not only myself, but I am sure by many others.  But lets be honest.  There is no test or test record that someone else in there system can use that is going to tell me how that cartridge is going to sound in my system.   
Perhaps what I am trying to say is that I don't see this hobby of our as being just black or white but a more heavily shade of 'gray'! (grin)
My best cartridge is a Moving Coil.  Does that mean all Moving Coils are better than Moving Magnets!  It does not to me but there are people who will and do state this as if it were an absolute! I just also happen to feel the same way about conical's.
The replacement of the conical with a more advanced tip profile in the JVC Z-1S, whether it be an elliptical, a Shibata, or the SAS , has brought up questions that I just have not been able to wrap my head around.  Why is there not leaps of improvements or at least noticeable differences between these various profiles?  Why is there not readily discernible difference between any of them?  Why does the SAS not stomp all over the conical in its overall enjoyment factor?  These are questions I just can not answer.  This JVC is the most puzzling cartridge I have come across in my 50 years in this hobby!
David, I hope you find time to take it for a spin!  But be forewarned.  You will be enchanted and awe struck but at the same time, questioning you sanity!  (grin)
Regards,

[dlaloum]

On the subject of MM vs MC....

It is I believe traditional in this day and age to send balaclavad goons over with kalashnikovs to sort out blasphemers like you.....

"Je Suis Charlie"

(Seemed topical)

Nah I'm not fussed about it - and I still find the little Sony XL-MC104P remarkably sweet.... it is MC and high output, aluminium cantilever and "ordinary" (albeit nicely polished) eliptical....
It also has a measurable colouration around 6kHz... perhaps that is exactly what I like about it?

But I also love the AT20ss and that measures flat as a tack across the frequency response....

[Halcro]

But I also love the AT20ss and that measures flat as a tack across the frequency response....

Just goes to show.....
I'm firmly with Griff on this one......

[Halcro]

And just a PS to this "measurement vs listening" discussion.....if your measurements David, show that the Signet TK7LCa and AT20ss are the same beast......how do explain that in the same system, with the same arms, turntables, cables, amps and speakers......they sound as different to me, as any two cartridges possibly could ...?