World Championship Boxing

jackman · « **Reply #80 on:** 9 Dec 2012, 07:48 pm »

Both guys looked like they were cut out of stone. Ripped with major muscle mass. I'm a fan of both fighters, Marquez and Manny, but feel they both used PED's to get that big. Especially JMM, who is 39 years old. You just don't see guys who are already in great shape putting on that kind of muscle this late in life. Also, JMM has a nutritionist on his team who was previously banned for providing PEDs.

Not to take anything away from the victory. JMM is a tough dude who will go down in history as one if the best. I also give Manny credit for taking this fight, when he could have taken a much easier one. Say what you want, Manny is a very courageous guy. He will fight anyone they put in front of him, the same can be said of JMM. IMO, this is much more impressive than guys with inflated undefeated records of hand picked opponents.

Also, the allure if Manny/Floyd or even JMM/Floyd has faded for me. It has nothing to do with last night's fight. I'm more interested in seeing guys like GGG fight. Maybe he can get a fight with JMM. I really hope Manny and JMM don't fight again. They match up well but haven't we seen it too many times?

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #81 on:** 9 Dec 2012, 08:02 pm »

I hear ya. i suppose they may, however.

dB Cooper · « **Reply #82 on:** 9 Dec 2012, 08:21 pm »

They both said they would.If they do, it probably means anyone still hoping for a Mayweather fight can finally give up. While none of them is "shot" (maybe MP is?), neither Mayweather, Manny, nor Marquez has a whole lot of tread left on their tires.

jackman · « **Reply #83 on:** 9 Dec 2012, 09:02 pm »

I disagree. None of these guys are anywhere near shot and all three have plenty of tread on the tires. MP was winning and he got caught. This happens when good guys fight. His aggression got the best of him. Also, his hands were low but that's a habit he's had for a long time.

I hope both fighters keep fighting but I hope they fight other people. A fifth fight will probably be entertaining but I'm not interested. Who wants to see two guys fight each other five times? While we are at it, I have no interest in a Bradley rematch. He clearly lost the first MP fight. Plus, Bradley is a boring and dirty fighter, particularly with his head butts.

paul canady · « **Reply #84 on:** 9 Dec 2012, 09:35 pm »

There is a lot of tread left if they want it bad enough. That 39 year old looked 29 and I hope drugs aren't part of the reason. Manny made a rare mistake and JMM's timing was perfect. I don't know how hungry they would be for each other for the 5th time.

What's next for these two?

jackman · « **Reply #85 on:** 10 Dec 2012, 09:36 pm »

I thought about this and there are only a few options left for Manny, if he wants a mega-fight with Floyd:

- First - Manny has to win his next fight convincingly. I'm talking about a knock out, versus a big name opponent. This could be a rematch with JMM or a rematch with Bradley. A rematch with JMM and convincing knockout would be ideal.

- Second - Manny has to probably accept Floyd's terms. He has already offered Floyd more money but he may have to accept a large ring, heavy gloves, etc. I'm not sure how much of this is negotiable but he's going to have to give up something to get the fight.

- Third - he needs to think about retiring, if he has lost a step. Maybe the football analogy doesn't work here but you know what I mean. If he is slowing down, he should just give it up. Manny's style of fighting is not like guys like JMM or even bigger guys like big George Foreman. He needs to have faster reflexes in order to beat top opponents. Remember, this is a guy who started out in the very lightweight classes, I think Flyweight or Bantamweight. He put on lots of muscle to fight bigger guys and cash bigger paychecks. I don't know of any other fighter who has gone this far up in weight and carried his punch with him. He needs speed to win, and to avoid punches of bigger guys. Without it, he is in trouble.

Lastly, someone mentioned (maybe it was another thread) a fighter needed to be more like B-Hop to beat Floyd. I'm not sure I agree with this. JMM and Manny are lightyears ahead of Bernard Hopkins in terms of boxing skills. Hopkins is a much bigger man but he is not in the same universe as these two (unless we're talking about dirty fighting, and clutching, which Bernard does as well as anyone). Other guys have tried to roughhouse Floyd and have not succeeded. As much as I hate Floyd as a person, I'm not sure I have ever seen anyone as smart as he was (or is) in the ring, with his speed and power. He's a VERY rare talent and, unless he suddenly gets old or loses focus, I don't see any of these guys beating him.

PBF moves his feet extremely well, he has one of the all time great defenses and has rarely been challenged in the ring. This is partially due to the guys he has chosen to fight but I have to recognize his skill as a fighter. He is very hard to hit and, in his prime, made guys pay whenever they missed. He has not earned the right to be mentioned with the all time greats, because he has not always fought the best and he has not fought frequently enough, but his skills - defensive, offensive, ring generalship, etc. - are as good as anyone who has ever stepped into the ring. I would have loved to have seen this guy fight a young Pernell Whitaker or a Julio Ceasar Chavez Sr. (in his prime in the mid-late 80's), or a young Ray Leonard. Those would have been great matches. It's difficult to speculate who would have won!

django11 · « **Reply #86 on:** 11 Dec 2012, 03:05 pm »

I think Manny can do anything he wants to do and f**k Floyd. Manny will make a few million less in his career, so what? Manny has fans respect which is something that Floyd can't buy. If I were Manny I would take a few more fights just to pad my bank account with a couple more million$ and then retire from boxing to become president of the Philippines.

I would like to see Floyd take on some real challenges, guys who are seen as a threat. Martinez and GGG come to mind. But Floyd will never do that. Canelo even? Not sure. I wouldn't mind seeing Robert Guerrero in against Floyd, I was impressed with the way he completely changed up his style against Berto. I wouldn't pick against Floyd in that one but I would like to see it.

Word was Floyd is going to fight Bradley. That neither surprises me nor interests me very much...

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #87 on:** 11 Dec 2012, 08:03 pm »

Floyd vs. Bradley is an easy fight for Floyd unless both parties agree to just rubber match us to old age. Bradley must wanna fight somebody. He's young with a lot of earning years ahead of him and he's not all that wealthy. Why did the powers that be want him over Pacquiao? To keep the division lively? To keep the game strong? They get paid? Didn't look like the fighters themselves were holding back. What must Floyd be thinking? Am I ever gonna see the limelight again? How about a 'life story' flick starring 50 Cent? Hey, I wouldn't be too surprised. MC's of our money will probably come up with another rival in another weight class before too long. Stiil, there's the potential for a Floyd and Bradley dance. I know . . Bradley wins and has a rematch with Pacquiao! Then Marquez starts calling out Floyd and we're back in business

.

jackman · « **Reply #88 on:** 12 Dec 2012, 06:28 pm »

Jim,

A couple observations. First, I don't think people are too enthused about fighting Bradley, and it's not because they are afraid of losing. First, Bradley is a dirty fighter. I'm not sure if he does it on purpose but he REALLY leads with his head and frequently butts his opponents. This is one of the worst things you can do in the ring. The damage from a deep cut caused by a head butt can have long lasting affects. Secondly, Bradley is not an entertaining fighter to watch. I've seen several of his fights and, unlike Manny, JMM, GGG, and several of the top fighters around this weight class, Bradley is just not fun to watch. Against top opposition, he can be passive and rarely takes the action to the other guy. The public does not want to see this guy run from Manny and fight passively...only to get the questionable decision. This is bad for boxing and bad for a guy like Manny who is looking for a decisive victory. Bradley is hard to beat decisively because of his defensive/passive style of fighting.

I'm not a guy who believes in conspiracies. It appeared to be just a bad decision. Bradley can win his next ten fights and he will never be a fan favorite because of his boring/dirty style of fighting. Unless he completely changes his style, he will never be a huge money fighter as a result.

Lastly, in the unlikely event that Bradley fights Manny in a rematch, I predict Manny will do the exact same thing he did in the first fight...beat his ass. I think Bradley's style make him very difficult to knock out, but he can be soundly beaten again and the outcry after the first bad decision will likely force the judges to call this one straight. In the end, that loss to Bradley was regarded as a Pac-Man victory because the end result was the same - Manny fought JMM. He would not have have gotten the Floyd fight either way.

Don't hold your breath waiting for a Bradley/Mayweather fight, even though it's being discussed in boxing circles. Floyd is a smart guy and he realizes there are several better, more entertaining options, the public would rather pay to see. Who wants to shell out $50 to see Floyd chase Bradley around the ring for 12 rounds? I see Floyd fighting someone aggressive like Guerrero and possibly Canelo Alvarez as a follow-up. Those would be entertaining fights that would draw large Mexican audiences. Also, Floyd moves well, and is much faster, and should easily defeat both fighters, even though they are good punchers. These fights would draw more $$$ and be more entertaining. After these guys, we might see a Manny/Floyd showdown but that would be 2014 and who khows what these guys will look like by then. After Manny's devistating loss to JMM, he needs to win at least one big fight to regain his status as an elite/money maker.

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #89 on:** 12 Dec 2012, 10:23 pm »

I was just funning around. I'm sure your right about a lot of what you wrote. The KO of Pacman was a shocker! The way Manny lay there out freakin cold. Wow. So, you think Manny/Marquez will happen soon? Marquez is in the driver's seat. His call, I'm thinkin. And I would see what other paydays are out there if it were me. You?

jackman · « **Reply #90 on:** 12 Dec 2012, 11:05 pm »

Quote from: jimdgoulding on 12 Dec 2012, 10:23 pm

I was just funning around. I'm sure your right about a lot of what you wrote. The KO of Pacman was a shocker! The way Manny lay there out freakin cold. Wow. So, you think Manny/Marquez will happen soon? Marquez is in the driver's seat. His call, I'm thinkin. And I would see what other paydays are out there if it were me. You?

Hi Jim,

Good questions. First, we have to see how much this fight took out of Manny. That was a brutal knockout. He may have also hit his head on the matt to compound matters. A knockout like that can scramble a fighter's brains and Manny may choose to just retire. He's got a mountain of cash and he lives in the Phillipines where he is a national hero. I hate to see good (intelligent as well) guys like Manny wind up mumbling or perminantly disabled. Also, JMM has made a great deal of cash in his career (especially the past few fights). I'd really like to see these guys fight some younger fighters to spread the money around and expose some young talent to the world stage. Guys like Gurrero, Canello (possibly too large to fight Manny or JMM) would be fun or maybe someone a Jr. Welterweight Amir Khan or a Devin Alexander.

Heck, I'd like to see JMM fight Timmothy Bradley. JMM is a tough Mexican dude and I think he would try to rough Bradley up and make him come out of his shell. That might be a good matchup. Also, JMM against the younger Mexican fighter Canello Alvarez would be fun to watch. Two very aggressive fighters but I'm not sure Canello is experienced enough to fight a guy like JMM, but he's really big and strong. Maybe Canello vs. James Kirkland or 3G!

I'd really like to see someone like Golovkin fight Sergio Martinez or possibly step up and fight Andre Ward. Ward is a monster and may be too big for Golovkin. The Martinez fight would be fun to watch, much more entertaining than the Chavez Jr. fight. If Chavez Jr. back off the weed and gets serious, he may have some entertaining fights left in him as well. What I'm really saying is that boxing doesn't need Manny/Floyd to fight. There are lots of good matchups that may not have the hype, but they have the potential to be very exciting. I hope guys like Manny and JMM don't try to fight much bigger guys to get a payday. Larger guys typically hit harder and as smalller guys get old or after too much wear and tear, their reflexes slow down and they get hit more often. That's a bad combo.

Cheers,

Jack

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #91 on:** 13 Dec 2012, 04:37 pm »

I like Marquez-Bradley cause Bradley is lucky to be a champ and JMM can't get hurt by him. It's been so long since anyone has seen JMM fight anyone but Manny, this should have quite a lot of interest. The other thing is that it would further DIGNIFY the winner and help bring some integrity back into the game IF properly officiated. It's what should happen next in that division, IMO

django11 · « **Reply #92 on:** 13 Dec 2012, 06:06 pm »

Quote from: jimdgoulding on 12 Dec 2012, 10:23 pm

I was just funning around. I'm sure your right about a lot of what you wrote. The KO of Pacman was a shocker! The way Manny lay there out freakin cold. Wow. So, you think Manny/Marquez will happen soon? Marquez is in the driver's seat. His call, I'm thinkin. And I would see what other paydays are out there if it were me. You?

I am not sure Marquez is totally in the driver's seat. He is now a bonafide hero in Mexico but I think Manny is still the bigger pay per view attraction. Certainly Marquez' bargaining power has gone way up. But only boxing nuts tuned into Marquez- Katsidis, Marquez-Diaz and especially Marquez-Fedchenko. Marquez vs Bradley on pay per view? Maybe because nowadays anything gets on PPV but it won't do big numbers...

Just because you beat the man doesn't mean you become the man. As an example look at Trout's victory over Cotto. I can barely remember Trout's name and I would much rather watch a Cotto fight... I also remember Shane Mosley who after having beaten Oscar De LaHoya said "I'm a star now!: his next fight was not PPV because it wasn't against Oscar...

Having said all that, in the last few years Marquez has turned into an exciting fighter and if he gets some more big fights more power to him!

jackman · « **Reply #93 on:** 13 Dec 2012, 07:53 pm »

Django,

I agree with you, JMM has not been a big name in the US. The fact that he was robbed on a couple close decisions to Manny P (in the eyes of many) and his inability to speak English (until relatively recently) have hurt his market appeal. If one of those Pac Man decisions had gone his way, I think his popularity would have improved. Also, the fact that Floyd dominated him when they fought did not help JMM's market appeal. JMM was completely out classed during that fight, but he looks like a different guy these days (ripped muscles and lots of it).

Having said that, I would have to think his resounding knock-out of Manny Pacquaio has improved his appeal among casual boxing fans. Those are the guys who shell out bucks to watch PPV. Experienced boxing fans have appreciated JMM's skills for years. Also, his newly added muscle (HGH?) seems to have improved his punching power. How he acquired the extra muscle is up to debate (the same is true of Manny) but there is no denying he's got it. Honestly, I'm not sure I want to see him fight a potentially boring guy like Bradley anyway. It would be way more fun to see him against an aggressive Mexican or Mex/American in his next bout. Guys who are not afraid to trade with him, like Gurrero or maybe Canelo. JMM better double up on the HGH if he's going to fight Canelo, but I guarantee he's not afraid of anyone. Plus, at 39 years old, JMM needs to make the money while he can. A Canelo fight has potential to do well on PPV.

django11 · « **Reply #94 on:** 14 Dec 2012, 03:46 am »

No doubt about it JuanMa's appeal and bargaining power have gone up. I just think Pacman still has a lot of appeal and bargaining power too. We will see what he has left in the tank next time he fights. If he struggles then his appeal and bargaining power will take a nose dive...

Rclark · « **Reply #95 on:** 14 Dec 2012, 03:56 am »

Maybe Manny will start taking boxing serious again and stop playing around with being a cute little celebrity.

satfrat · « **Reply #96 on:** 14 Dec 2012, 04:28 am »

Quote from: Rclark on 14 Dec 2012, 03:56 am

Maybe Manny will start taking boxing serious again and stop playing around with being a cute little celebrity.

I think Manny was taking that fight very seriously as he was leading on the scorecards and had knocked down Marquez previous to himself being knocked out senseless. Manny simply got careless in thinking he had the fight well in hand and Marquez took advantage by throwing the "perfect punch"(Marquez's words).

I'll be looking forward to watching the Pacquiao/Marquez replay on HBO Saturday night along with the live Nonito Donare-Jorge Arce 12-round Junior Featherweight fight.

Cheers,
Robin

jackman · « **Reply #97 on:** 14 Dec 2012, 09:07 am »

I'm with Robin on this one, Manny was well prepared. He just got caught by a big punch thrown by a great boxer. I'm not even sure he was careless. Ive seen the tale a dozen tines, he threw a punch, missed and got countered with a big shot on the button. That's boxing, it happens to the best of them.

I'm just amazed guys with this much money can still find the motivation to put themselves through this type of torture. Also, it is possible Manny will not be the same fighter when he returns. You can only take so much punishment and he has taken more than his share over the years.

I am looking forward to the Donaire fight. This is a guy who fights the best in his weightclass and dominates them like nothing I have ever seen. He is very a aggressive little guy who packs a big punch. Tough dude.

django11 · « **Reply #98 on:** 14 Dec 2012, 01:02 pm »

I'll make a prediction on this one. I like Arce a lot but he isn't seeing the final bell in this one. His come forward style is perfect for Donaire.

Unfortunately I won't see this fight. Off to sunny Cuba for a week.

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #99 on:** 15 Dec 2012, 10:01 pm »

Quote from: satfrat on 14 Dec 2012, 04:28 am

I think Manny was taking that fight very seriously as he was leading on the scorecards and had knocked down Marquez previous to himself being knocked out senseless. Manny simply got careless in thinking he had the fight well in hand and Marquez took advantage by throwing the "perfect punch"(Marquez's words).

I'll be looking forward to watching the Pacquiao/Marquez replay on HBO Saturday night along with the live Nonito Donare-Jorge Arce 12-round Junior Featherweight fight.

Cheers,
Robin

My channel guide says the Bonaire fight is on tonight. Very glad to know the P/M fight will be included cause the guide didn't say. Good night for we fans.