[jtwrace]

Nope, no affiliation, but as far as I know, no animosity either. In fact, I am planning that our first Ground Plain product be one that can be matched with our esteemed competitors product, to provide something quite special.

Bud

When?

[BudP]

Mike B,

I did make mention of this very thing, on the other thread. Not an angry mention, just a note that it was a copy. This post was removed by the moderator and reasons for doing so were given.

The product uses the same materials and techniques and accomplishes a sub set of what our Standard and Reference Ground controls accomplish, in that it provides for information retention of enough signal coherence to enhance stage width and depth, in the illusion coming from our music systems. I have provided more than enough information over on the Diy Audio "ground side electrons" thread to allow anyone who wants too, to make a diy retention device to this level of performance. We do also provide tonal vividness, dynamic color and lyrical beauty, in controlled amounts with our two devices. These categories and the methods used to achieve retention of this information, do not appear to be copied to date, though from the spread of products available, it is not from wont of trying. I will note that our esteemed competitor did not enter the market place until we had done all of the market preparation needed, i.e sales locations and third party reviews.

On the diy thread I did ask that anyone deciding to copy our products please contact me. Both for discussion of license fee and materials and techniques, so as not to dilute the products effectiveness. From the pricing and marketing speak being utilized by our competitor, I don't have any reason to expect this will occur.

Draw what conclusions you will.

Bud

[BudP]

jtwrace,

I have the prototypes up and running as I type. They will retail for $40 each, provide a bit narrower sound stage than our Standard models do but also provide a good portion of the depth of internal tone and transient gradient structure that the Reference models provide. They do exhibit a small percentage of the other properties exhibited in our two Ground Control models. I am looking for a balance that will help a two channel system and also be perfect for a multi-channel theater system, where extreme stage width is perhaps not the best idea.

The availability hinges upon how quickly a web site with shopping cart can be set up and vetted. I am already involved with the folks I need to be for this and we are shooting for mid December, to be up and able to take orders. I suspect I will also offer a more direct competition with another product, aimed primarily at sound stage width. These products are already designed to be used in combination.

Bud

[oddeophile1]

As a note, this last week, I obtained several samples of the GE from EVS and installed them into my system.  Previously, I have been using the reference GC on both the low freq and mid/high freq posts on my 4 main speakers along with Walker Audio Reference Plus HDL's in my HT and one on my center speaker (note - as of this writing, my CC does not have the ref GC on it pending receipt of some Cardas banana adaptors to allow for its reinstallation as I also have Walker Audio Reference Plus HDL's on this and  can not fit all of them on the CC posts at present. I hope to have the Cardas adaptors tomorrow evening to reinstall the ref GC along with the HDL). 

The results were extremely impressive with the ref GC on my system. No image truncation in any plane. In fact, it remained static in size from before installation but the image specificity, clarity, removal of grunge, grit and grain, dynamic color, instrumental color, vividness and "you are there in the room with the action/music/musicions" was incredibly precise in any plane horizontal and vertical providing an immensely satisfying sonic result to film and BD audio high def discs. 

Late last week, I received a set of the competitor models and hooked them in place of my ref GC's on my speakers after removing the ref GC's.  I also hooked them on my amp outputs.  Immediately, I was not happy with the results at all. The remaining superb benefits of the Walker HDL's remained but suddenly I lost all image precision I had enjoyed, a haze and grit ensued as if a blanket had been thrown over the soundfield and it became diffuse.  After two days of installation to break in, not much changed. 

Later, I found out my amp has floating outputs, not negative grounded so I removed them from the amp.  Things improved a great deal and almost all of the grit/grain'haze disappeared but some haze and diffuse imaging remained.  I lost the incredible spotlighting localization the ref GC's provided.  It was as if someone turned out the lights on the system and I was in the dark, to a greater degree, again.  Out went the competitor GE's and back in the ref GC's went. 

Bang! Everything I found absolutely entrancing with the Walker Audio Reference Plus HDL's + ref GC's returned.  I realized I can not live without this combination ever again. 

I should note that I will be installing the Walker Audio Ref + HDL's on the woofer posts of the 4 main speakers tomorrow night along with the currently employed reference GC's and fully expect an improvement over what I have gained now, according to what I have read from W/A and others that use the HDL's in bi-wire/bi-amp applications.  The bass is enhanced where one would not expect so in cleaning up ultrasonic garbage entering the speaker cables.  This should prove most interesting as I am extremely happy so far. 

I have ordered some standard GC RCA's for my amp RCA unused inputs and one for my reference HT receiver to see how they work on that end.  I did note the competitor model GE's did NOT increase my soundstage further from the reference GC's, it remained static in size, nor did the GE's truncate the soundstage, either.

I understand I am somewhat of an anomaly so far in the competitor models.  Please note that I did not find them, after they broke in my my speakers after about 36 hours or more, to be bad per se.  And, if I probably had heard them without trying the ref GC's I would have found their improvement, over the system without them, to be very positive. It is just once I have had the immense pleasure of the reference GC's on my speakers they are, for my system and my listening sensibilities, the sin quo non with the Walker Audio's in tandem.  There is, on my system, a synergistic and cumulative relationship that is most desireable and immensely satisfying, as of today. 

Lastly, let me restate - this is my system and my results.  They may very well be very different from the improvement other systems may provide.  So, this is in no way a negative review or consideration of either product.  I just want to be clear they were good, very good, in their own right.

Best to all,

Odd

[satfrat]

Odd??? Yes it is. 
 
Cheers,
Robin

[Wind Chaser]

Okay, in my unscientific DIY I made a pair using CAT 5 CMP as seen on page 4 of this thread.  If someone would like to compare them to the 'mind blowing' product, I have another pair I'll send at no cost.  All I ask is that you report back, either by way of this thread, or in a PM with the results.  Assuming there is more than one interested party, I'll draw a name from a hat.

I think these are very impressive little wires, but I don't have a reference to compare them with.  Also, I think it would be interesting to get someone else's perspective.  So if you are willing and have the commercial product as evidenced by a report in the other thread, shoot me a PM.

[jtwrace]

Okay, in my unscientific DIY I made a pair using CAT 5 CMP as seen on page 4 of this thread.  If someone would like to compare them to the 'mind blowing' product, I have another pair I'll send at no cost.  All I ask is that you report back, either by way of this thread, or in a PM with the results.  Assuming there is more than one interested party, I'll draw a name from a hat.

I think these are very impressive little wires, but I don't have a reference to compare them with.  Also, I think it would be interesting to get someone else's perspective.  So if you are willing and have the commercial product as evidenced by a report in the other thread, shoot me a PM.

Guess I know what I need to do....Two 24" pieces of Cat 5e stripped 2" back. 

[TooManyToys]

I did 20" of Cat 5e and wasn't too impressed.  Ordered some Litz.

[oddeophile1]

Odd??? Yes it is. 
 
Cheers,
Robin

Nothing is truly odd in this crazy, zany hobby.  It defies explanation at times what will work for one does nothing for others. I have read in other forums the AP versions did nothing for somone and the EVS versions were, to him and his system, the sin quo non of reproduction.  So the answer to that is - "go figure". 

Enjoy.

Odd

[jtwrace]

I did 20" of Cat 5e and wasn't too impressed.  Ordered some Litz.

Interesting. 

[satfrat]

Nothing is truly odd in this crazy, zany hobby.  It defies explanation at times what will work for one does nothing for others. I have read in other forums the AP versions did nothing for somone and the EVS versions were, to him and his system, the sin quo non of reproduction.  So the answer to that is - "go figure". 

Enjoy.

Odd

Just so you don't misunderstand me Odd, it's not your product review that I find odd but where you decided to post it, in a DIY thread located in The Lab Circle. Then again there are already what I perceive to be a couple Industry Ad's in here too so I guess your addition has found it's home OK. 
 
FWIW, the Equipment Reviews Circle might have been a better home for your product comparison but,,,, 
 
Cheers,
Robin

[oddeophile1]

Whoops! Sorry about that, chief.  Bud gave me this thread link to post my findings here after I advised him of my findings noted on my earlier post today.  I apologize to all for my goof.  It isn't my first goof and certainly won't be my last I am sure. 

Again, sorry about that, guys.

Odd

[jtwrace]

Whoops! Sorry about that, chief.  Bud gave me this thread link to post my findings here after I advised him of my findings noted on my earlier post today.  I apologize to all for my goof.  It isn't my first goof and certainly won't be my last I am sure. 

Again, sorry about that, guys.

Odd

It's fine!  I don't see a problem using a diy thread to do a project and then post your findings.  It happens all the time IMO. 

You're fine!!!

[Wind Chaser]

I did 20" of Cat 5e and wasn't too impressed.  Ordered some Litz.

There are different varieties of CAT 5.  What type of insulation is on yours... CMG, CMR or CMP?

[satfrat]

Whoops! Sorry about that, chief.  Bud gave me this thread link to post my findings here after I advised him of my findings noted on my earlier post today.  I apologize to all for my goof.  It isn't my first goof and certainly won't be my last I am sure. 

Again, sorry about that, guys.

Odd

I fully understand Odd. Welcome to Audiocircle, I hope to read more reviews and shared opinions from ya. 
 
Cheers,
Robin

[satfrat]

It's fine!  I don't see a problem using a diy thread to do a project and then post your findings.  It happens all the time IMO. 

You're fine!!!

Only this is a comparsion of 2 competing products Jason and has nothing to do with a DIY project. Please correct me if I'm wrong?
 
Cheers,
Robin

[TooManyToys]

There are different varieties of CAT 5.  What type of insulation is on yours... CMG, CMR or CMP?

24ga solid CMR/CMX, used single strand.

[Big Red Machine]

Bud, I have 30 and 36 ga magnet wire and a solder pot now.  It appears I can melt the coating in the pot, clean off the burnt coating and expose copper and solder the wires together.

How many loops of this size wire and what diameter should I start with?

Should I then twist them together or leave them in an open loop?

[Wind Chaser]

24ga solid CMR/CMX, used single strand.

Perhaps that would explain why you weren't impressed.  When I tried CMR and CMG as speaker cable I couldn't understand what the fuss was all about.  CMP has a very thin Plenum coating insulator which makes a very significant audible difference.

[TJHUB]

I've been following both threads since the start of all of this.  I am NOT a disbeliever in things like this, but I do have to hear the differences for myself. 

A few days ago, I tried a 20" piece of speaker cable looped and connected to each negative speaker terminal.  I don't think I heard anything, but I left them on because I was lazy.  However, since I had some CAT5e cable lying around with nothing to do, I made some single wire 20" loops and installed them on the negative speaker terminals.

This could be in my head, but I really hear a considerable difference in the clarity, separation, and imaging.  It sounds like there is a blacker (or quieter) background.  Micro dynamics seem more obvious and I don't have to listen for details; they are just there.  The sound stage also seems to have more depth as in sounds coming from near compared to farther away.

I also put a couple of loops on the negative terminals on my amps. 

I may just have to invest in the real thing soon.  I'm very surprised this worked at all with the CAT5e cable.  Strange...